Know Your 'Rafale'

Drsomnath999

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Snecma tightens India ties

Snecma, like all the other players on the "Rafale Team", is keeping a very close eye on developments in India. And no wonder. The potential contract for 126 Rafale fighters, along with options for a further 63 machines, would constitute the biggest military export success for the French engine-maker in decades. Snecma's close relations with the Indian Air Force (IAF), however, go back much further than the MMRCA call for tenders. The company has supplied maintenance services for the M53-P2 engines on the country's Mirage 2000H/THs since the first aircraft were delivered in the early 1980s. Today the IAF has a fleet of 49 Mirage 2000s.

According to Snecma's Head of military engines, Didier Desnoyer, relations with the Indian MoD and the IAF are constantly progressing towards a state of "full mutual trust". This trend is reflected in a greater degree of transparency and anticipation between the supplier and the customer, ensuring a better understanding of the needs expressed by the IAF. For Desnoyer, the IAF is developing "a strategic vision of its military support".

Greater transparency
The relationship has been tested at times. Early in 2012 two twin-seat Mirage 2000THs crashed within a period of less than two weeks, with the crew ejecting safely in both cases. However, the subsequent, Snecma-led inquiry, far from undermining the relationship, actually enhanced mutual collaboration and encouraged greater transparency between Snecma and its Indian partners. "Events of this kind, undeniably contribute to strengthening our ties with the IAF," comments Desnoyer.


India is looking to co-develop an engine for its future Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)

Today the IAF has two main maintenance centres for its M53 engines. Gwalior Air Base, home of the Indian Mirage 2000 fleet, is equipped with all the resources needed to peform "operational" maintenance. The base at Kanpur, on the other hand, is dedicated to heavy maintenance activities, along the lines of the French AIA facility. It should be noted that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd is not involved in M53 maintenance, unlike the Adour engines (Turbomeca/Rolls-Royce) for the Indian Jaguars.

The Mirage 2000 upgrade programme awarded to Thales in 2012 has no impact on Snecma's work on the aircraft, Desnoyer confirms. The engines are outside the scope of the upgrade programme, and no transfer of production work to local industry is planned.

LCA ... and AMCA
There is another project, however, that could result in high-level cooperation between Snecma and Indian industry, even though the French firm declines to comment on the matter. In 2007, India published a call for tenders for joint development of a 9 tonne engine for the light combat aircraft (LCA) programme. Early in 2010, Snecma was officially selected to participate in the programme; the idea at the time was to develop a slightly more powerful version of the Rafale's M88 engine under the Kaveri K10 project.

This project was subsequently abandoned when India dropped plans to equip the Tejas with an indigenous engine. Nonetheless, the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) later tested its locally developed Kaveri K9 in Russia, on an Il-76 flying testbed. India is currently considering development of a K9 derivative, without afterburner, to equip a future UCAV.

However, this is not the end of story. India recently issued a new Request for Information for co-development of a more powerful engine, in the 12-13t class. Presumably this would be used to power the future Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), a 30t twin-engine design that could enter service next decade. Logically, one would expect Snecma to respond to this RfI, even though, on this occasion, in view of the required thrust class, the technology strategy will probably be different from the Kaveri K10 — despite its substantial growth potential, the Rafale's M88 was not designed to operate in this thrust class.

Snecma tightens India ties - Air&Cosmos
 

sayareakd

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I think they have lost it, they have no idea about it.

Election can be declared any time. So they cant go any further on deal.

Plus they have jack up price by 100%.

hate to say bye bye Rafale.............
 

greek guy

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Will the indian Rafales be armed with russian air-to-air missile?

Are the indian Mirage 2000s armed with russian missiles?

Can you please send me some pics?

I am very interested in russian missiles on french airplanes.. like iraqi Mirage F-1 with Kh-29L.. and south african Mirage F-1 with R-73..
 

p2prada

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Will the indian Rafales be armed with russian air-to-air missile?
Technically, they can be. But economically and politically they won't be. We may opt for integrating the KH-31P though, since the West doesn't have an equivalent yet, but this is an air to ground missile.

We will see more focus on integrating Indian weapons on Rafale instead. Like Astra (BVRAAM), Sudarshan(LGB), Brahmos-M(everybody knows what this is), Nirbhay(LACM) and Helina(ATGM).

Are the indian Mirage 2000s armed with russian missiles?
No. There were plans, but were deemed unnecessary. Only French, Israeli and American weapons are equipped on the Mirage-2000.
 

Twinblade

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Will the indian Rafales be armed with russian air-to-air missile?

Are the indian Mirage 2000s armed with russian missiles?

Can you please send me some pics?

I am very interested in russian missiles on french airplanes.. like iraqi Mirage F-1 with Kh-29L.. and south african Mirage F-1 with R-73..
As of now only Russian anti radiation missiles. Mirage-2000 can be seen with R-73 pylons here:-
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/military-multimedia/6181-indian-air-force-pictures-multimedia-70.html#post789489

The picture was taken at Maharajpur AFB, Gwalior, the home of Mirage-2000 in India.
 

Immanuel

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I am glad we can't sign the deal, I hope they choke on it, by the time election is over, the price will escalate more and the Rafale deal will fall on its weak knees. It was a sham since day 1. Dassault screwed us on this deal as expected since the start. I knew all that hogwash of full-tot was pure bs.

They should have just gone for an FMS of the SH International or even the Mig-35, we'll still get more out of such a deal than this ridiculuously overpriced BS. This deal was never about having the shiniest new bird. Rafale brought along with it bad omen obvious in its long history of failed negotiations and deals in its past. Its horrendous costs were clearly there to read for everyone and yet everyone was too hooked to its beautiful feline curves, dassault's BS marketing (mostly gorgeous lies).

This deal was always in its essense about having a workhorse (not sure IAF knows this either), something that was a jack of all trades, not really the best at anything, rather an aircraft with a wide set of roles, recognised reliability and known recurring costs.

Now, even the Mig-35 MKIed for our needs or ideally the SH International would bring in very good overall capability, engine commonality with LCA (many said oooo if IAF doesn't care about the savings and has budgeted the costs required to operate a completely new aircraft with no commanity then its no issue, while obviously any bit of savings 'now' are much welcome). More than bullets, armor, fighters and missiles, war needs 'cash or credit' (hard truth), the cheaper the war the better, 'value for money' becomes key when such numbers are discussed.

Better to scrap this deal and go for either an FMS Super Hornet International or even the MKIed Mig-35, we'd get more out those deals for less and the capability will be roughly the same or superior due to opertaional ease of maintenance, wide spread knowledge of systems due to commonality & in the case of the Mig thorough experience using a similar aircraft platform.

With the SH line closing soon, we can get the whole line transferred to India and with a lot of TOT. Per bird the saving over a life time in comparison to the Rafale should be over 30-40 Million.
 
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bose

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@Immanuel With the squadron strength for IAF depliting fast, I would have gone for upgraded Mig-29's K' series that Indian Navy is getting [I mean the similar configuration], that is also a very good option... we could easily had 2 Mig29's at the cost of one Rafale if not more... This could have filled the numbers for IAF very quickly... along with that we could accelerated the LCA production too...

Indians got fooled easily that just by buying the Rafale's we will be able to get the full TOT and hense bridge the technology gap easily... that was never to happen...
 
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SajeevJino

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.

here everyone worried about Numbers of Squadrans not the quality of The Fighter


Viva La Rafale
 

bose

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.

here everyone worried about Numbers of Squadrans not the quality of The Fighter


Viva La Rafale
Sir, Quantity is a Quality of its own...

Mig-29 K is damm good fighter...

I have nothing against Rafale provided we get full TOT...
 

sayareakd

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These Congress wallas have long history of neglecting the country's defense needs... starting from Nehru's time and we saw the debacle in 62 when we are ill equipped to fight Chinese...

Airforce is short of fighters....

Navy is short of Submarines....

Army is short of Artilleries and ammunition...

There is no clear cut strategic planning on indigenization...

List is on and on.... I wonder what these ministers are doing in the ministry....
do you think Modi will sign the deal provided he comes to power................:rofl:
 

bose

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do you think Modi will sign the deal provided he comes to power................:rofl:
Modi is a very strong believer of full indigenization... If he comes at all to power it will be difficult days for import lovers"¦

The one's whose RFP have been issues or at advanced stage will get signed"¦ but Modi will definitely review the whole procurement policy"¦
 

Immanuel

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@Immanuel With the squadron strength for IAF depliting fast, I would have gone for upgraded Mig-29's K' series that Indian Navy is getting [I mean the similar configuration], that is also a very good option... we could easily had 2 Mig29's at the cost of one Rafale if not more... This could have filled the numbers for IAF very quickly... along with that we could accelerated the LCA production too...

Indians got fooled easily that just by buying the Rafale's we will be able to get the full TOT and hense bridge the technology gap easily... that was never to happen...
Mig-29K indeed a great aircraft but for now it doesn't have AESA and IAF has no need for a strengthened landing gear, better the Mig-35 heavily MKIed with inputs from Israel or the SH. The depleting numbers is a matter for concern, SH International would be ideal due to their production rate of 42 aircraft per year, We could have a couple of squadrons by the time the line in India is entirely up and running.

Also, I don't see why LCA shouldn't be produced faster, I think the best thing that can happen is to solidify the announced idea of 14 sqds with commitment of Tejas to 300+ fighters and kick up the production rate to atleast 40 a year, best way to address fleet shortages.
 
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Kyubi

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Also, I don't see why LCA shouldn't be produced faster, I think the best thing that can happen is to solidify the announced idea of 14 sqds with commitment of Tejas to 300+ fighters and kick up the production rate to atleast 40 a year, best way to address fleet shortages.
Its not that easy as we would like to believe.. production rate is as fast as the production of sub assembly parts are.. In the era of babudom and holier than thou attitude its very hard to have all the industries associated with Tejas Production to be following a strict time line... It takes time, no wonder we have had HAL issuing statement that first year of production will have less than 10 and by the end of the decade we'll have close to 20 aricrafts. This clearly shows that even after establishing aerospace related center's of excellence.. Our Production rate will still be plagued by red tapism etc we might take few more years to weed out these hindrances and have a fully capable military (aerospace) industrial complex rivaling the likes of Rafale, Boeing, Chengdu etc...
 

Immanuel

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^^^

True but, first a confirmed order of 14 sqds or over 300+ fighters with an increase in the number of MK-1 orders should help in increasing production rate, currently, for MK-1, there are only 40 orders and hence HAL has no initiative to increase rate since MK-2 will require some changes to the line.

I think this can be done away with a simple strategy of turning the MK-1 into what is essentially a LIFT aircraft i.e Lead in Fighter Trainer. The MK-1 is the ideal aircraft for the last and final stage of pilot training, not only will this make our pilots far better and capable. IAF can have 40 trainers or 2 sqds and Navy can have 20 or 1 sqd. We can also order another 10 for a proper Demonstration team, hence the order book for the MK-1 can be 70 aircraft. While MK-2 can have an order book of 14 sqds or roughly 300 fighters with Navy also order another 3-4 sqds.

MK-1 can also be exported to Afghan. I think if LCA ever has to be exported, an eventual production rate of 30-40 is needed.

Confirmed orders from IAF and a push from MOD can make this much easier.
 

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