Know Your 'Rafale'

[p2prada]

yes, on the photo? But i talked to the pilot... Wrote an article about it, cut its balls due to MBDA request...

Edit was answering to P2

I suppose the range changes based on altitude. A 37 Km range seems plausible at higher altitudes.

But dogfights mostly happen at low altitudes, so the 7.8NM may be for such altitudes.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

No. Phase 3 started in 2006. It's time is over. I don't know what phase the last 42 will be though because the VVS version of the MKI is even more advanced. It may be at that level.

The new "Super" program is a MLU and is completely independent from the phased upgrades.

Sir, I think you are confusing indigenous manufacturing Phase with aircraft development/up-gradation Phases. Indigenous manufacturing Phase
started in 2006 but aircraft development/up-gradation Phases 3 will integrate avionic systems being developed for the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft program. I don't know the current status of it (aircraft development/up-gradation Phases 3).

 

[Dark Sorrow]

A year already since selection of the Rafale. Fingers crossed and hoping for a good and decisive defence minister this time.

Buying aircraft is not like buying groceries. These thing take time. The aircraft we chose will stay with us for about next 40 years hence we need to stay cautions. Rafale is shortlisted but that doesn't mean deal is done, still there are lot of hurdles. Anything may happen and not to forget there is a very good chance that there will be a new central government.

 

[p2prada]

Sir, I think you are confusing indigenous manufacturing Phase with aircraft development/up-gradation Phases. Indigenous manufacturing Phase
started in 2006 but aircraft development/up-gradation Phases 3 will integrate avionic systems being developed for the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft program. I don't know the current status of it (aircraft development/up-gradation Phases 3).

Su-30MKI Mk1 was in 2002, Su-30MKI Mk2 in 2003-04 and Su-30MKI Mk3 in 2005-06. The Su-30MKI Mk4 could be the latest iteration of the MKI with Su-30SM upgrades, but I am not sure about this one since there are no public disclosures. This model is supposed to come with significantly increased Bars capabilities.

Both manufacturing and upgrade phases were linked. The only change was the contract in 2007 for 18, these came in Mk3 standards instead of the earlier upgrade plan. The Mk1/Mk2 models were something like the EF Typhoon Tranche 2 while Mk3 was something like Tranche 3. It came with A2G missile firing capability and opened up all the modes of the Bars radar. A lot of newly developed Indian made equipment came up on the Mk3 and a new EW suite was introduced. This was the Phase 3 of the MKI upgrades.

The new "Super Sukhoi" MLUs are completely independent from the Phase 3 upgrade of the MKI. This is the one that will come with FGFA equipment. The MKI will end up with a new designation.

 

[Immanuel]

F-35 JSF Distributed Aperture System (DAS) Sensors Demonstrate Hostile Fire Detection Capability - YouTube

Who cares how much energy is needed to track Ballistic missiles, F-35 currently does it while Rafale doesn't and even so upgrades are being developed currently for almost all existing systems on F-35, so FOC F-35 will be much more refined and capable than Rafale ever can be.

Also, this isn't a pissing contest, its' ok for the Rafale to be among the best 4.5 gen fighters. F-35 is a 5th gen fighter and is a .5 gen ahead or more, and its avionics and service over the next many decades with heavy users like USN, USAF and USMC and many international customers, will keep it cutting edge.

DAS can zoom in, not only can it detect multiple ground launches and classify the threat according to type, Rafale can't.

Lockheed Martin's development roadmap extends until 2021, including a block 6 engine improvement in 2019.

DAS,DICM, Engine will all be upgraded in block 5 and 6 which will be 2019-2021, so this idea of F-35 being a stagnant program is a rather stupid one.

DAS can see hundreds of miles on a 360 degree basis and to compare a system that can detect, track, geo locate and classify air, ground and sea based launches out to over 1300km to DDM-NG is rather naive.

Distributed Aperture System Tracks Ballistic Missiles from 1,300 km Away

Rafale will have a lease of life if the deal actually goes through, with the costs spiraling everyday, who knows what mood the new Govt. will bring. For Rafale India deal is crucial, if we buy it the program will live to see another 30 years if not, well then chances for another country to buy it are much lower as well due to again the same prohibitive costs.

 

[Immanuel]

Rafale is a smart choice for India even though it is costly. F-35 is not a good choice.
India will gradually develop all radars and sensors. Rafale will remain with the French for some time,unlike all other MMRCA competitors, which will be replaced. Even though the air-frame is of 80's design, the French will keep improving the avionics and weaponry matching western standards. This will serve as a benchmark for India (in addition to Russian benchmark) while performing its own upgrades. Its always good to refer to two sources as benchmarks and hedge the bets to remain technologically ahead.
For F-35, I am just repeating what is wide over the internet. This is only for those who want F-35 for India.
F-35 air-frame has compromised performance (rate of climb, turn radius, speed, etc). for stealth and internal weapons hold. Its vulnerable in dogfights and maneuvering.
It has single engine for commonality of its three variants, which is again a compromise. Single engine means lower cost per aircraft but higher cost for maintaining fleet over lifetime. Single engine is a single pint of failure. F-35 engine is very complex (i.e. more prone to failure).
Commonality was meant to keep costs low (for F-35 A, B and C). A - CTOL for air force, B - VTOL for marines and C- STOL/CTOL (STOBAR and CATOBAR) for navy. But the complexity has increased costs.
F-35 is still under development, has problem flying in lightning. The project is years behind schedule, cost is unmanageable, There is widespread allegation of corruption for concurrent purchase (it is being bought and developed at the same time). Everyone is pissed, including Australia, Canada, Netherlands and the US Navy.
The aircraft cannot perform Close Air Support role as its too vulnerable to small arms and is not maneuverable. It cannot be used for air superiority as it is not good in dog fights. It is limited to light bombing roles.
Its strength is its stealth and Electronics warfare suite and sensor fusion and data-linking with other air-crafts for "hunting in packs" with BVR missiles. But that advantage will be quickly lost given the pace of electronics and software development worldwide (Moore's law).
Its high cost will cause air forces to have reduced number of planes. It can be best used in mixed formations with more agile fighters protecting it, while it uses its BVR and electronics suite in data-linked warfare.
This aircraft is a specialist aircraft, not a multi-role one and is seen as a gap-filler by many. Its strength can be exploited by mixed formations, but it cannot stand its own ground alone.

True F-35 is years behind schedule but what they hope to achive by FOC is also very ambitious, starting from very long range detections to seamless 360 coverage over hundreds of nautical miles to simultaneous tracking and classification of 10s of targets is not all easy, the program has had to wait for plenty of technology to mature. The costs are not all that high considering that at FOC the cost per fighter will be around $85 million, keep in mind we are currently being charged more for the Rafale so the costs are actualy comparable.

As for it being a single engine fighter the same thing can be said about the LCA or any other single engine fighter.

Indeed the Engines to airframe have reliability issues but I think this is expected considering parts are coming from across the world and there are too many contractors involved, it will take some time to stabilize the design and production. This is why a platform is tested and the F-35 is being subjected to some extensive testing, sure they could have found defects earlier in the stage to prevent expensive production fixes but any such large program with global supply chain will face similar issues. What matters is how it performs post FOC and I am certain by FOC the aircraft will reliable and fit for service.

As for the roles, I wouldn't say light bombing or A2A either, it carry upto 6 A2A missiles, 8 SDB1/2, 2* 2000LBS bombs or even 2 CBU-105SFWs with these cans of whop ass it can nail 80 Tanks/ APCs in a single run which is still good. Moreover due to customers in Europe even the Meteor will find its way into the F-35 one day and will provide additonal options.Also, it still has external stations for plenty more weapons.


One cannot ignore scales of failures, this an International program with many partners and companies involved, the industrial scale is big, it wasn't an easy program to begin within.

 

[laughingbuddha]

Buying aircraft is not like buying groceries. These thing take time. The aircraft we chose will stay with us for about next 40 years hence we need to stay cautions. Rafale is shortlisted but that doesn't mean deal is done, still there are lot of hurdles. Anything may happen and not to forget there is a very good chance that there will be a new central government.

And while they try to finalise the deal over a period of time there is escalation, no doubt? or does the aircraft cost remain as per the original bid offer?

 

[DivineHeretic]

And while they try to finalise the deal over a period of time there is escalation, no doubt? or does the aircraft cost remain as per the original bid offer?

There is such a thing as the lifetime of a bid, or in layman's words, the bids have a valid life, during which the bid price is fixed and is not subjected to escalation (or deescalation for that matter). If the deal is signed within the period of validity of the bid, the producer cannot ask for a revision of the stated price.

However, if the deal cannot be finalized during this period, the producer reserves the right to increase the bid price. Go look up news about Rafale, you will find the Govt. of India asking the L1 and L2 bidders to extend the validity of their bid.

 

[halloweene]

DAS can zoom in, not only can it detect multiple ground launches and classify the threat according to type, Rafale can't.

Wrong Google Translate

And i can tell you there is much more than written in this article...

Also, this isn't a pissing contest, its' ok for the Rafale to be among the best 4.5 gen fighters. F-35 is a 5th gen fighter and is a .5 gen ahead or more, and its avionics and service over the next many decades with heavy users like USN, USAF and USMC and many international customers, will keep it cutting edge.

Define 5th gen, please because definition LM gave to fifth gen for F22 do not fit with F-35

DAS,DICM, Engine will all be upgraded in block 5 and 6 which will be 2019-2021,

Rofl, block 6 around 2020?

And that is optimistic estimations... Btw i think you meant DIRCM, NG stuff is far from operational. Check in linked article, DDM-NG is stated as "dircm compatible" doesn't it rais your eyebrow?

You know what? An Atlantique 2 is able to detect a radar opening thousands of kilometers away. etc. And YES the energy of an ICBM exhaust is huge and has no relevance for a fighter. Better tell me how far DAS will detect a fighter. (i said DAS not EODAS). About DAS zooming capabilities, i'm veryu curious to your sources...

ndeed the Engines to airframe have reliability issues but I think this is expected considering parts are coming from across the world and there are too many contractors involved, it will take some time to stabilize the design and production. This is why a platform is tested and the F-35 is being subjected to some extensive testing,

True, and did you know that at this very moment, USAF cant simply fix reliability issues as fast as F-35 are being built? Quite worrying considering around 100 were built.

As for the roles, I wouldn't say light bombing or A2A either, it carry upto 6 A2A missiles, 8 SDB1/2, 2* 2000LBS bombs or even 2 CBU-105SFWs with

Not yet, and by far... And it would lose its stealthiness which is not its most relevant capability imho

And while they try to finalise the deal over a period of time there is escalation, no doubt? or does the aircraft cost remain as per the original bid offer?

As far as i was told, yes the price remained the same (not considering rupee's fall) L1 bidder validity was already extended...

 

[laughingbuddha]

Well lets all hope the rupee fares well with the dollar when it is time to transact.

 

[Kay]

@Immanuel: F-35 is currently priced at $112 M. It was supposed to cost $35 M.
I do agree that on FOC it would be the airplane with most advanced plane in terms of software, avionics, data-linking, sensor fusion and situational awareness for pilots. But the air-frame will remain bulky and not maneuverable.
LCA is a low cost plane designed to be built in numbers to replace Mig-21s. So, they are single-engined. F-35 is not low cost any more.
F-35 doesn't fit in with India's scheme of things. We need the know-how to design stealth air-frames. That objective will be met in AMCA. As for software and avionics upgrades, we are tying up with the French, Russian and Israelis. Avionics, software and weapon technologies change very fast. France will keep improving the Rafale's avionics and weapons in the near future and will move to drones later. We will have a stealth plane with no compromise on maneuverability in the form of PAK-FA. The avionics gap will be plugged in using Israeli and French co-operation.
From the strategic perspective, India will lose a lot if we buy F-35s. We will end up as just one more buyer of F-35, than the gradual partnership we are gaining with Russians and Israel (and may be to France in future). Our technological independence will be killed. What's the wisdom of downgrading to a complete buyer-seller relationship? Add to that the fact that US goods come with lots of strings attached. We will lose the independence of our foreign policy. Today we are "neutral ally" to the US. Buying the F-35 would make us allies in a bloc. For India, it makes sense to buy defense products from US only when alternatives are readily available in market.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

And while they try to finalise the deal over a period of time there is escalation, no doubt? or does the aircraft cost remain as per the original bid offer?

Well lets all hope the rupee fares well with the dollar when it is time to transact.

Its not about just how rupee fares. As per law of economics price tags tends to rise by up to 10% each year. Buying/aiming for ToT for such a complicated system has its own pitfalls. Any sub-vender can increase cost that may increase the overall price tag. Replicating production lines in country that has no industrial base for such high technology product is even more expensive and difficult. Hence Dassault is skeptical regrading ToT and production line clause. I have been informed that their several German and American sub-vender in Rafale project. A lot of unknown variables affect the cost and it is bound to increase.
Best example is INS Vikramaditya.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

We will have a stealth plane with no compromise on maneuverability in the form of PAK-FA. The avionics gap will be plugged in using Israeli and French co-operation.

You want to buy an expensive aircraft and replace its avionics with other set of expensive avionics and waste time and money integrating them. We followed this approach with MKI because Su-30 is inherently cheap. I don't see the logic in this. Initial estimates of Unit cost of T-50 is US$50+ million and FGFA is US$100 million.
More ever I doubt that commercial of the shelf avionics will come anywhere close to that of F-35.

Our technological independence will be killed..

PAK-FA will get our technological independence will be killed!!! Think of IAF/MoD comparing PAK FA vs AMCA.

We will have a stealth plane with no compromise on maneuverability in the form of PAK-FA.

Today's air combat is more with electronic warfare than maneuverability. As modern missiles have become more agile and g-force tolerant they out-maneuver aircraft and most defence against missiles comes from electronic-countermeasure.

 

[Patriot]

DS very true what you said about the ECM. When you understand the importance of the same we can not expect russian avionics etc going to be better or state of art compare to west. Another aspect we can not afford to have something common what Chinese are also having from Russian sources and compromising our ECM and ECCM defence. Hence we need to have totally customized avionics & electronic warfare units on our AC. It will help us in integrating different weapons of our choice and better flexible mission planning. After so much investment we ought to have control on all these aspects. Not to forget capability has it's cost.

 

[p2prada]

DS very true what you said about the ECM. When you understand the importance of the same we can not expect russian avionics etc going to be better or state of art compare to west. Another aspect we can not afford to have something common what Chinese are also having from Russian sources and compromising our ECM and ECCM defence. Hence we need to have totally customized avionics & electronic warfare units on our AC. It will help us in integrating different weapons of our choice and better flexible mission planning. After so much investment we ought to have control on all these aspects. Not to forget capability has it's cost.

That isn't inherently true. Russian equipment is as good as western equipment when it comes to EW. On FGFA we will end up with our own stuff anyway.

The Mig-35 and today's Mig-29UPG is carrying the Italian Virgilius suite which is the equivalent of Spectra. The PAKFA will obviously carry a better suite.

Just a reminder, the Malaysians chose Russian EW kit over French on the Su-30MKM.

 

[Drsomnath999]

And if Qatar boarded the Rafale in June

Qatar could announce his choice in favor of Rafale during the official visit to Paris in June the new emir, Sheikh Tamim Bin Hamad Al Thani.
And if Qatar announced its decision to choose the Rafale in June during the visit to Paris of the new emir, Sheikh Tamim Bin Hamad Al Thani? In any case, all French military aerospace industrial sector hope. Just as the defense minister, Jean-Yves Le Drian, who built the military program law on export contract fighter aircraft manufactured by Dassault Aviation. "Reasonably, we believe such an announcement before the were from Qatar, "said one of the industrial contacted by" La Tribune ". The signing of a Letter of Intent (LoI) between Qatar and Dassault Aviation could be signed on this occasion. Inshallah, as if the repeat loop industrial ...

According to our information, discussions, however, resumed in March after a period Doha had apparently, shelved the issue. For about three months, the Qataris have given no sign of life on the Rafale. However, in Paris, during this period, industrial and state did not seem too worried about the silence. "Must register in time with Doha, they have their own tempo,"they explained in "La Tribune ". And it was in March that the Qataris have finally resumed talks with Team Rafale (Dassault Aviation, Thales and Safran) burst posing new questions about the fighter.

72 combat aircraft

Twelve aircraft - Mirage 2000-5 - Qatar would increase its fleet of combat aircraft to 72, a first batch of 36. In any case it is hoped that Doha last summer. A customer who has anyway afford 72 combat aircraft. In this context, the emirate had sent last August a tender (Request for Proposal) to three candidates : Dassault Aviation, Lockheed Martin and the Eurofighter consortium. According to an informal schedule, Qatar had to choose a supplier for a first batch of 36 aircraft by the end of 2013 and then enter with the manufacturer of exclusive negotiations. Dassault Aviation took the rope for the first batch.

But the schedule slipped in particular because of the strange game Americans. Mid-September, London, which offers Eurofighter Typhoon, and Paris, which supports the Rafale (Dassault Aviation) , had made their offer in accordance with the timetable set by Doha. But not Washington. Suddenly, the two envelopes containing the bids of Eurofighter consortium (BAE Systems, EADS and Italy's Finmeccanica) and Dassault Aviation have stayed several months at the bottom of a trunk before being unsealed ... once the response of Americans réceptionnée by Qataris. Curiously, the United States did not finally proposed the F-35, according to several sources.

The CA provides for the delivery of 26 Rafale
The Minister of Defence has a sacred bet by entering the delivery of only 26 Rafale in the LPM (2014-2019). It sets the delivery of 11 Rafale in 2014 and 2015, four in 2016 and none between 2017 and 2019. To compensate for the failure to deliver 11 Rafale year, Jean-Yves Le Drian has bet export. Today, we entered the "money time" to conclude a contract for export. Because i need the average of three years to make a Rafale from signing the contract.

If successful, the department will save the delivery of 11 Rafale at around 1 billion per year.Conversely, it is liable to heavy penalties Dassault Aviation, which makes it even live 500 suppliers including Thales and Safran, its main partners. " The contract stipulates the annual delivery of eleven Rafale . "This is the minimum rate fixed under industrial continuity and the ability of suppliers to Dassault to produce the necessary equipment," explained in 2012 the Delegate General for the Armaments (DGA), Laurent Collet-Billon. If an export contract was not signed, the LPM provides a review clause to find new solutions.

Tanker aircraft and NH90 helicopters for Qatar
End of March, Qatar has signed a letter of intent for the purchase of 22 NH90 helicopters for a total of nearly two billion euros. It is twelve devices version TTH (Tactical Transport) and ten NFH (anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare). Program launched by NATO (via the agency NAHEMA), the NH90 is produced by NH Industries, a consortium Airbus Helicopters, Italian AgustaWestland and Fokker Aerostructures Dutch. Qataris have also announced their intention to acquire two MRTT tanker aircraft.

Italy and Spain can also thank the Minister of Defence, Jean-Yves Le Drian, who snatched the last day of Naval Defence Exhibition (DIMDEX) this announcement, which surprised even some industrial. AgustaWestland is assembling the naval version of the NH90 on the site of Venice, with the exception of those for France. And it is in Spain that the A330-200 manufactured in Toulouse (one third the price of the aircraft) are converted to Getafe (Spain) A330 MRTT.
https://translate.google.co.in/tran...ord-du-rafale-en-juin.html&edit-text=&act=url

 

[laughingbuddha]

Its not about just how rupee fares. As per law of economics price tags tends to rise by up to 10% each year. Buying/aiming for ToT for such a complicated system has its own pitfalls. Any sub-vender can increase cost that may increase the overall price tag. Replicating production lines in country that has no industrial base for such high technology product is even more expensive and difficult. Hence Dassault is skeptical regrading ToT and production line clause. I have been informed that their several German and American sub-vender in Rafale project. A lot of unknown variables affect the cost and it is bound to increase.
Best example is INS Vikramaditya.

Were these not factored in while preparing the RFP? Timelines would have been set for building infra, selecting vendors etc. in the RFP which would have been quoted by the bidder. And specific timeline for selection of bid, negotiation and signing of contract.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Were these not factored in while preparing the RFP? Timelines would have been set for building infra, selecting vendors etc. in the RFP which would have been quoted by the bidder. And specific timeline for selection of bid, negotiation and signing of contract.

Response for every RPF has a life span which is just for couple of months as market trends tends to change. All these factors are taken in account. The total value of contact is decided and prospective supplies are chosen who fall with acceptable parameters. As for timeline for building infra, selecting vendors etc. can be only estimated as there are lot of unlown factors. It takes 5-10 years to transfer technology and even after ToT for some parts we will be dependent on France.
There is no specific timeline and these things proceed very slow.

 

[halloweene]

Belgium will not buy the Rafale, they keep Unkil' Nukes in Kleine Brogel and hence they will most likely go for F-35. Also SABCA/Sonata have had experience working with LM licence manufacturing F-16s so F-35 will be the obvious choice for them.

Rofl... SABCA is largely owned by DAssault...

 

[halloweene]

Interesting news : second aerodynamic/separation campaign for metor starting next months. First powered release scheduled on Jan. 2015