Know Your 'Rafale'

Neeraj Mathur

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The longer wait to sign the deal, the sillier it becomes to go for the Rafale, I think cancellation is the best thing to do, we'd be better off buying the SH International through FMS and considerable TOT as the SH line is closing, it makes sense to transfer the SH assembly line to India, with the LCA MK-2 we for sure can get full-TOT on F414 engines and other goodies, I am sure Unkil will be willing to drop a lot of tech transfer hurdles as being suggested in the Javelin deal.

We might as well consider the F-35 which brings in overall better capability than any of the fighters we currently evaluated, its stealthier, has better avionics and Unkil will certainly entertain the idea of having an Asian assmbly line in India to have better coverage of Asia/ Middle east orders. We might not get full-tot but we aren't getting that for PAKFA either. Like Israel we can go for some customized additions to the F-35. If the order is large enough of 200+, we can easily squeeze a lot of out the deal.

Rafale deal at the current costs of well over 20 billion is quite ridiculous, I am certain we can get the same number of F-35 for less.
why go for f35

we should expand tejas line from 12-16 aircraft per year to more than 18 -20 per year and buy some su30 mki.

tejas will fill the gap of recently retired mig 21 and su30mki will add some backbone to IAF
 

TrueSpirit1

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Should India spend Rs 1000cr on a single fighter jet?

Yep, you read that right. India is close to signing a $20-25 billion deal to acquire 126 new fighter jets. That's around Rs 900-1000 crore apiece for a 4th generation jet, when the world is moving on to 5th generation stealth jets and unmanned drones. So how did we get here?

A modern multirole fighter jet is expected to perform two primary functions: air-to-air combat, and air-to-ground strike. The former consists of attacking enemy aircraft and defending your own airspace. The latter consists of attacking enemy air defenses, and supporting your own ground forces in battle. The Indian Air Force (IAF) has generally been good at air-to-air, but the experience at Kargil revealed some serious shortcomings in its air-to-ground effort. Only the Mirage 2000, a French multirole aircraft, was able to perform well after some urgent modifications were carried out with Israeli help.

It thus seemed like a good idea to purchase more Mirage aircraft expeditiously and upgrade the ones already in service. That was in 1999. Today, in 2014, the Mirage is out of production, and after a competitive but sluggish shortlisting process, India is on the verge of signing a deal to acquire its successor, the Dassault Rafale. Along with the Eurofighter Typhoon, it was judged to be the most capable of the six contenders in the tender, and happened to be the cheaper of the two finalists (which happened to be the two most expensive aircraft in the competition).

However, in the meantime, both the IAF, and the threats it faces, have evolved. India's spearhead today is the excellent Sukhoi Su-30MKI - which can fly faster, farther, carry a larger payload (of weapons and fuel), and has a more powerful radar than the Rafale (though both are expected to upgrade to newer AESA units in due course). And very recently, India's own Light Combat Aircraft, the Tejas, has displayed acceptable performance. Between them, the Su-30 and Tejas could cover many of the missions that the Rafale is meant to undertake.

But the real problem is cost. One Rafale costs more than two Sukhois, or more than five Tejas jets. In fact total development costs of the Tejas are just $1.5 billion, or about the same as 9 Rafales! Capability wise, the Rafale is a little worse than the Sukhoi in air-to-air combat and a little better than it in air-to-ground strike roles. In terms of ownership costs, traditionally a problem with Russian products, the Rafale is hardly better. By some estimates, it costs around Rs 10 lac ($16000) per flight hour. The average Indian fighter pilot flies 200-250 hours in a year, which is necessary for training etc. That's Rs 20 crore per Rafale pilot per year, at the very least. To put that in perspective, that's what Kejriwal spent to win Delhi!

And going by previous experience with ToT arrangements, rarely is the outcome consistent with the letter and intent of the agreed deal. At best, India will be able to produce some parts and spares of the Rafale independently (this will likely exclude complex engine and radar assemblies), but we will not learn how to design these from scratch.

It is thus very unfortunate that an urgent and legitimate need for a good strike aircraft, addressed through a competitive and transparent tender process, has resulted in a situation where the IAF will pay 5th gen money for a 4th gen platform, and receive the last of these aircraft at a time when they are about to be obsolescent. Don't get me wrong, the Rafale is a good jet, and it beat the others in the contest fair and square. The real issue is the acquisition timeline that has dragged on for over 13 years. What made sense in 1999 just doesn't make sense in 2014. The technology of war evolves fast. Either the tender should have been modified to include newer contenders, or it should have been framed such that aircraft costs played a more meaningful role in the end result. What we've done is akin to taking our own sweet time (over a decade!) and picking a Mercedes and an Audi from a lineup that includes a Maruti and a Hyundai, and then coyly choosing the cheaper of the two. We'd still be stuck with an expensive, if lovely, car.

For an ambitious and developing India, there's better ways to spend one lakh twenty thousand crore rupees (or $20 billion). High-speed rail, or world-class highways could be one option. Buying out a foreign aerospace company (Dassault's market cap today is $15 billion), or at the very least recruiting the same scientists, engineers and designers that may be laid off if we don't splurge on foreign weapons (from BAE, EADS, Dassault etc), and putting them to work on indigenous projects, could be another.

With India tumbling to sub 5% growth, and with dwindling foreign reserves that translate to an export cover of barely 8 months, a fancy new jet is hardly the need of the hour.
Should India spend Rs 1000cr on a single fighter jet? by Yankee Doodle : Sohel Sanghani's blog-The Times Of India
Woww...what an article. Especially, the concluding section below had me grinning.

For an ambitious and developing India, there's better ways to spend one lakh twenty thousand crore rupees (or $20 billion). High-speed rail, or world-class highways could be one option. Buying out a foreign aerospace company (Dassault's market cap today is $15 billion), or at the very least recruiting the same scientists, engineers and designers that may be laid off if we don't splurge on foreign weapons (from BAE, EADS, Dassault etc), and putting them to work on indigenous projects, could be another.
Nice thinking, Sohel Sanghani :pound:
 

Abhijeet Dey

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The author of this article should have first asked Air force officials on their views on Rafale. I mean India buying Dassault company for its medium role fighter requirements or recruiting scientists & engineers from other aerospace companies is utter nonsense. If he thinks Indian economy is going down then India should have cancelled MMRCA and gone for more Tejas.

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Is is true?

But the real problem is cost. One Rafale costs more than two Sukhois, or more than five Tejas jets. In fact total development costs of the Tejas are just $1.5 billion, or about the same as 9 Rafales! Capability wise, the Rafale is a little worse than the Sukhoi in air-to-air combat and a little better than it in air-to-ground strike roles. In terms of ownership costs, traditionally a problem with Russian products, the Rafale is hardly better.
 

p2prada

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Is is true?
Partly. One Rafale costs more than 2 MKI. But 1 Rafale costs more than 2 LCA and not as much as 5 LCA, since the cost of LCA is catching up with MKI's unit cost. But LCA will cost lesser in terms of lifecycle costs since it is cheaper to maintain.

Even JF-17 is over $30 million now. LCA is expected to be between 200-250 crores, that's $33-41 million, pretty much what MKI costs today.

The total development cost is only for LCA Mk1.
 

Twinblade

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Even JF-17 is over $30 million now. LCA is expected to be between 200-250 crores, that's $33-41 million, pretty much what MKI costs today.

The total development cost is only for LCA Mk1.
Su-30Mki delivered by HAL cost Rs 300 cr flyaway two years back,
 

Twinblade

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Is that so? The contract we signed with the Russians in 2011 for 42 was for $40 Million each.
That amount was probably renegotiated licensing fees for upgraded birds + raw materials/sub components + stuff which we are making at low rates so we import to keep the production rate high. It probably did not include the local stuff. Plus the engine deal was separate.
 

p2prada

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That amount was probably renegotiated licensing fees for upgraded birds + raw materials/sub components + stuff which we are making at low rates so we import to keep the production rate high. It probably did not include the local stuff.
All of this should be handled within the Sukhoi contract. For eg: The T-90s we purchased came with foreign components like Catherine with the contract. Meaning, IAF pays Sukhoi and Sukhoi in turn pays HAL and other local and foreign manufacturers for the entire aircraft.

For spares, IAF pays HAL and other local and foreign manufacturers directly.

I am pretty sure the upgrade is not part of the contract.

Plus the engine deal was separate.
Yeah, I suppose this is a separate contract.
 

ersakthivel

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Woww...what an article. Especially, the concluding section below had me grinning.

Nice thinking, Sohel Sanghani :pound:
This shows how serious TOI takes defence reporting.

if we pay the money french will sell dassault to india like a hot samosa with all the TOTs as tomatto ketchup toppings!!!!
 

ersakthivel

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Almost all of Su-30 MKI's avionics which cost more than a third of the fighter's price was purchased separately.

And if we take into account the forex component till now , one Su-30 MKi will cost moe than 3 tejas mk-2s, if we also take into account the future MLU in forex reserves and huge cost of maintaining this complex 30 ton plane.

if we take the availability level of Su-30 fleet then costs will further increase.

If we take the same analogy for tejas vs RAFALE , the cost difference is huge close to 1:5 ratio,

because the rupee is depriciating for ever against the dollar even when dollar is nose diving against gold!!!
 

halloweene

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About foruming and my supposed animosity towards Mr Jon Lake, here is the reason : Pete Collins has flown Tornado F2 ; GR1 ; GR4, Kai T50, M346, F16B, Mirage 2000...(as its gonna be released in Air Fan this month i can dislose it). So much for people who criticized his knowledge of modern FBW jets after his article Rampant Rafale.
 

Punya Pratap

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Dear All the Knowledgable ones including Halloweene, ersakthivel, P2Prada et all,

Please give me your personal opinion on Rafael v/s MKI's and who scores and why??

Then we can sit and surmise whether Rafael is really worth the moolah we will shell out!
 

halloweene

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The longer wait to sign the deal, the sillier it becomes to go for the Rafale, I think cancellation is the best thing to do, we'd be better off buying the SH International through FMS and considerable TOT as the SH line is closing, it makes sense to transfer the SH assembly line to India, with the LCA MK-2 we for sure can get full-TOT on F414 engines and other goodies, I am sure Unkil will be willing to drop a lot of tech transfer hurdles as being suggested in the Javelin deal.

We might as well consider the F-35 which brings in overall better capability than any of the fighters we currently evaluated, its stealthier, has better avionics and Unkil will certainly entertain the idea of having an Asian assmbly line in India to have better coverage of Asia/ Middle east orders. We might not get full-tot but we aren't getting that for PAKFA either. Like Israel we can go for some customized additions to the F-35. If the order is large enough of 200+, we can easily squeeze a lot of out the deal.

Rafale deal at the current costs of well over 20 billion is quite ridiculous, I am certain we can get the same number of F-35 for less.
The ToT issues and complexity would be exactly the same for all subcomponents. Do you realize that about 100 Dassault engineers are in India to set up this complex process?
 

SajeevJino

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Dear All the Knowledgable ones including Halloweene, ersakthivel, P2Prada et all,

Please give me your personal opinion on Rafael v/s MKI's and who scores and why??

Then we can sit and surmise whether Rafael is really worth the moolah we will shell out!
Each of them Best in different ways

Rafale is an MRCA and MKI is Air Dominance Fighter
 

Punya Pratap

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What really got my goose was the fact that French Air Force pilots in their venerated Rafael's sitting on the fence while IAF fighters in their MKI's and the Flying Coffins went ahead and engaged the USAF during Red FLag - '08!!!!
I think they were afraid that the Rafael's will get the stick in front of the IAF when they were trying to sell the Rafael's or was it a case of a warrior afraid to charge in the battle field simply because he knew his horse was nt what it should be!!!!
If you go by surmises the answer is : "Elementary, My Dear Watson!"
 

p2prada

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What really got my goose was the fact that French Air Force pilots in their venerated Rafael's sitting on the fence while IAF fighters in their MKI's and the Flying Coffins went ahead and engaged the USAF during Red FLag - '08!!!!
I think they were afraid that the Rafael's will get the stick in front of the IAF when they were trying to sell the Rafael's or was it a case of a warrior afraid to charge in the battle field simply because he knew his horse was nt what it should be!!!!
If you go by surmises the answer is : "Elementary, My Dear Watson!"
Rafale and MKI were on the same side. Both aircraft were simulating bombers. Mig-21 wasn't in Red Flag.
 

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