Know Your 'Rafale'

[sayareakd]

May be we should go for EF that will give better deal to us.

I dont want Reliance to partner Rafale in India.

Our tax money will go down the drain.

 

[Deccani]

May be we should go for EF that will give better deal to us.

This deal with France seems to have international link as Russians are our traditional arms supplier . The Mistral Ship deal was between France and Russia which created disagreements within NATO member country.

I dont want Reliance to partner Rafale in India.

Reliance should keep dues clear for other small Indian companies instead of killing them .

 

[he-man]

personally as i have said on ----------- for the past 6 months,the deal should got to reliance and not to HALfor our own longterm good.

HAL can serve as technical suport for reliance and govt can pay them appropriately for this extra work.

this will go a long way in entry of a major indian player

 

[Deccani]

personally as i have said on ----------- for the past 6 months,the deal should got to reliance and not to HALfor our own longterm good.

HAL can serve as technical suport for reliance and govt can pay them appropriately for this extra work.

this will go a long way in entry of a major indian player

Deal going to Reliance means hiring of more Indians who will get more good salaries similar like HAL workers . And in long term its good for India where private entities can have more investment in defense sector who in future will get customers world wide .

 

[cloud]

Actually I think that moving the indigenous project to private Co. would be a better idea, as we know our products(for example extra LCA production line can be setup with Private Cos), but such deals like Rafale etc where ToT is involved should be under the PSU only at current time. As we can't be certain about the future of private co(they can be bought or even compromised or may get greedy(especially reliance types) in future, and may ask for more than what is needed), so should limit them initially in very sensitive techs, which can be done effectively for homegrown projects, while still giving them lion's share of work. While for Rafales , projects in PSU will be more safe as govt will have control over all the techs and later can be given to Private Cos as needed.

 

[Deccani]

Actually I think that moving the indigenous project to private Co. would be a better idea, as we know our products(for example extra LCA production line can be setup with Private Cos), but such deals like Rafale etc where ToT is involved should be under the PSU only at current time. As we can't be certain about the future of private co(they can be bought or even compromised or may get greedy(especially reliance types) in future, and may ask for more than what is needed), so should limit them initially in very sensitive techs, which can be done effectively for homegrown projects, while still giving them lion's share of work. While for Rafales , projects in PSU will be more safe as govt will have control over all the techs and later can be given to Private Cos as needed.

I think there is a very big reason for giving the opportunity to private companies , first to develop the defense sector which would help us to get technologies from within the country and there is even one more point which is linked to the international politics . India Government wants to be neutral and maintain relations with both NATO and Russia . Rafale is French technology and its part of the wider NATO alliance .

 

[Kyubi]

Actually I think that moving the indigenous project to private Co. would be a better idea, as we know our products(for example extra LCA production line can be setup with Private Cos), but such deals like Rafale etc where ToT is involved should be under the PSU only at current time. As we can't be certain about the future of private co(they can be bought or even compromised or may get greedy(especially reliance types) in future, and may ask for more than what is needed), so should limit them initially in very sensitive techs, which can be done effectively for homegrown projects, while still giving them lion's share of work. While for Rafales , projects in PSU will be more safe as govt will have control over all the techs and later can be given to Private Cos as needed.

Your point on creating another production line for tejas involving private cos is a valid and logical one. It is necessary to develop indigenous aircraft industry in the country and both govt and private cos should join hands and lay a strong foundation for a robust industry, but the bone of contention is as to how much should the private cos invovle in R&D IMHO i believe critical technologies should be under the purview of ADA , NAL,HAL the production should include private cos.

My Opinion is that the more private cos get involved in critical technologies involving production procedures, the better it is for the country in immediate future. But in the long run for every major tech if the country's top labs are at the doorstep of pvt defence players then it sure is not a good sign. this will result in company heads cozying up to ministers and top officers of the armed forces for contracts etc. In a way promoting corporate corruption, this may just appear to be far fetched but my concern is that we are knowingly or unknowingly following the western economic policy ( i may be wrong on this, if so please do correct me. I'd appreciate it ). FDI in retail is one such example , privatizing public sector undertakings etc. The day wont be far when the govt would decide to privatize non performing labs of either DRDO or CSIR.

@ Kunal Biswas @ ersakthivel please do share ur views on this

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@Kyubi, This is what we were talking here ..

And i will just two comment here >>

Should i call you Genius ..

You seem to know you Gov well, But i am afraid not your County, 3 million IA solider cannot rely on imports nor the equipment design for some other country but tailor made for ourselves, Why we need Private R&D ? Do you understand the risks involves ? have you read or research on those country which rely on Pvt corp for there arms like Amerika ? , Our Gov is not like Amerika Gov , They cannot tame there own PSU leave alone PVT corps under ..

Do give a hard thinking abt things you are talking ..

Private sector is not magic wand for all our defence problem, R&D should be done by Govt and then it should be handed over to Private sector with strict control, if they sell it to any other party it should be regulated with proper checks and balances.

I too want to India to have huge Military Industrial Complexes, but now is not the time only few companies are capable and you can count them in hand. L&T is good and only one, TATA is M&M is only for JVs. Yet to see them develop complete system on their own. Private sector defence should be properly control by Govt, that is my view.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/57190-there-no-friends-during-conflict.html

 

[halloweene]

In this document (in french) about Rafale tests : an agressive pilots has flown at 15 Kts during a BFM vs M2K...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/um1x8ng132jphbs/27chap22.pdf

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

HAL manufacturing division should look into this video in terms of quality.

Video "Rafale Before Flying" - Dassault Aviation

LINK: youtube.com/watch?v=db3w8j0woj0

 

[sayareakd]

HAL manufacturing division should look into this video in terms of quality.

Video "Rafale Before Flying" - Dassault Aviation

LINK: youtube.com/watch?v=db3w8j0woj0

have you seen LCA and how it is made, except for robotics all things are almost same.

 

[halloweene]

According to Aerospace Diary: EXCLUSIVE! MMRCA- New Year Tidings

MMRCA before 15/02

 

[p2prada]

Oh, crap. That means actual contract signature will happen only after elections.

When? May?

 

[sayareakd]

They way French is behaving it, we should cancel MRCA.

 

[indiatester]

According to Aerospace Diary: EXCLUSIVE! MMRCA- New Year Tidings

MMRCA before 15/02

Hope it is true

 

[Stalinet]

good pictures mr jayaram
:thumb:

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

Should India spend Rs 1000cr on a single fighter jet?

Yep, you read that right. India is close to signing a $20-25 billion deal to acquire 126 new fighter jets. That's around Rs 900-1000 crore apiece for a 4th generation jet, when the world is moving on to 5th generation stealth jets and unmanned drones. So how did we get here?

A modern multirole fighter jet is expected to perform two primary functions: air-to-air combat, and air-to-ground strike. The former consists of attacking enemy aircraft and defending your own airspace. The latter consists of attacking enemy air defenses, and supporting your own ground forces in battle. The Indian Air Force (IAF) has generally been good at air-to-air, but the experience at Kargil revealed some serious shortcomings in its air-to-ground effort. Only the Mirage 2000, a French multirole aircraft, was able to perform well after some urgent modifications were carried out with Israeli help.

It thus seemed like a good idea to purchase more Mirage aircraft expeditiously and upgrade the ones already in service. That was in 1999. Today, in 2014, the Mirage is out of production, and after a competitive but sluggish shortlisting process, India is on the verge of signing a deal to acquire its successor, the Dassault Rafale. Along with the Eurofighter Typhoon, it was judged to be the most capable of the six contenders in the tender, and happened to be the cheaper of the two finalists (which happened to be the two most expensive aircraft in the competition).

However, in the meantime, both the IAF, and the threats it faces, have evolved. India's spearhead today is the excellent Sukhoi Su-30MKI - which can fly faster, farther, carry a larger payload (of weapons and fuel), and has a more powerful radar than the Rafale (though both are expected to upgrade to newer AESA units in due course). And very recently, India's own Light Combat Aircraft, the Tejas, has displayed acceptable performance. Between them, the Su-30 and Tejas could cover many of the missions that the Rafale is meant to undertake.

But the real problem is cost. One Rafale costs more than two Sukhois, or more than five Tejas jets. In fact total development costs of the Tejas are just $1.5 billion, or about the same as 9 Rafales! Capability wise, the Rafale is a little worse than the Sukhoi in air-to-air combat and a little better than it in air-to-ground strike roles. In terms of ownership costs, traditionally a problem with Russian products, the Rafale is hardly better. By some estimates, it costs around Rs 10 lac ($16000) per flight hour. The average Indian fighter pilot flies 200-250 hours in a year, which is necessary for training etc. That's Rs 20 crore per Rafale pilot per year, at the very least. To put that in perspective, that's what Kejriwal spent to win Delhi!

And going by previous experience with ToT arrangements, rarely is the outcome consistent with the letter and intent of the agreed deal. At best, India will be able to produce some parts and spares of the Rafale independently (this will likely exclude complex engine and radar assemblies), but we will not learn how to design these from scratch.

It is thus very unfortunate that an urgent and legitimate need for a good strike aircraft, addressed through a competitive and transparent tender process, has resulted in a situation where the IAF will pay 5th gen money for a 4th gen platform, and receive the last of these aircraft at a time when they are about to be obsolescent. Don't get me wrong, the Rafale is a good jet, and it beat the others in the contest fair and square. The real issue is the acquisition timeline that has dragged on for over 13 years. What made sense in 1999 just doesn't make sense in 2014. The technology of war evolves fast. Either the tender should have been modified to include newer contenders, or it should have been framed such that aircraft costs played a more meaningful role in the end result. What we've done is akin to taking our own sweet time (over a decade!) and picking a Mercedes and an Audi from a lineup that includes a Maruti and a Hyundai, and then coyly choosing the cheaper of the two. We'd still be stuck with an expensive, if lovely, car.

For an ambitious and developing India, there's better ways to spend one lakh twenty thousand crore rupees (or $20 billion). High-speed rail, or world-class highways could be one option. Buying out a foreign aerospace company (Dassault's market cap today is $15 billion), or at the very least recruiting the same scientists, engineers and designers that may be laid off if we don't splurge on foreign weapons (from BAE, EADS, Dassault etc), and putting them to work on indigenous projects, could be another.

With India tumbling to sub 5% growth, and with dwindling foreign reserves that translate to an export cover of barely 8 months, a fancy new jet is hardly the need of the hour.
Should India spend Rs 1000cr on a single fighter jet? by Yankee Doodle : Sohel Sanghani's blog-The Times Of India

 

[Neeraj Mathur]

Should India spend Rs 1000cr on a single fighter jet?

Yep, you read that right. India is close to signing a $20-25 billion deal to acquire 126 new fighter jets. That's around Rs 900-1000 crore apiece for a 4th generation jet, when the world is moving on to 5th generation stealth jets and unmanned drones. So how did we get here?

A modern multirole fighter jet is expected to perform two primary functions: air-to-air combat, and air-to-ground strike. The former consists of attacking enemy aircraft and defending your own airspace. The latter consists of attacking enemy air defenses, and supporting your own ground forces in battle. The Indian Air Force (IAF) has generally been good at air-to-air, but the experience at Kargil revealed some serious shortcomings in its air-to-ground effort. Only the Mirage 2000, a French multirole aircraft, was able to perform well after some urgent modifications were carried out with Israeli help.

It thus seemed like a good idea to purchase more Mirage aircraft expeditiously and upgrade the ones already in service. That was in 1999. Today, in 2014, the Mirage is out of production, and after a competitive but sluggish shortlisting process, India is on the verge of signing a deal to acquire its successor, the Dassault Rafale. Along with the Eurofighter Typhoon, it was judged to be the most capable of the six contenders in the tender, and happened to be the cheaper of the two finalists (which happened to be the two most expensive aircraft in the competition).

However, in the meantime, both the IAF, and the threats it faces, have evolved. India's spearhead today is the excellent Sukhoi Su-30MKI - which can fly faster, farther, carry a larger payload (of weapons and fuel), and has a more powerful radar than the Rafale (though both are expected to upgrade to newer AESA units in due course). And very recently, India's own Light Combat Aircraft, the Tejas, has displayed acceptable performance. Between them, the Su-30 and Tejas could cover many of the missions that the Rafale is meant to undertake.

But the real problem is cost. One Rafale costs more than two Sukhois, or more than five Tejas jets. In fact total development costs of the Tejas are just $1.5 billion, or about the same as 9 Rafales! Capability wise, the Rafale is a little worse than the Sukhoi in air-to-air combat and a little better than it in air-to-ground strike roles. In terms of ownership costs, traditionally a problem with Russian products, the Rafale is hardly better. By some estimates, it costs around Rs 10 lac ($16000) per flight hour. The average Indian fighter pilot flies 200-250 hours in a year, which is necessary for training etc. That's Rs 20 crore per Rafale pilot per year, at the very least. To put that in perspective, that's what Kejriwal spent to win Delhi!

And going by previous experience with ToT arrangements, rarely is the outcome consistent with the letter and intent of the agreed deal. At best, India will be able to produce some parts and spares of the Rafale independently (this will likely exclude complex engine and radar assemblies), but we will not learn how to design these from scratch.

It is thus very unfortunate that an urgent and legitimate need for a good strike aircraft, addressed through a competitive and transparent tender process, has resulted in a situation where the IAF will pay 5th gen money for a 4th gen platform, and receive the last of these aircraft at a time when they are about to be obsolescent. Don't get me wrong, the Rafale is a good jet, and it beat the others in the contest fair and square. The real issue is the acquisition timeline that has dragged on for over 13 years. What made sense in 1999 just doesn't make sense in 2014. The technology of war evolves fast. Either the tender should have been modified to include newer contenders, or it should have been framed such that aircraft costs played a more meaningful role in the end result. What we've done is akin to taking our own sweet time (over a decade!) and picking a Mercedes and an Audi from a lineup that includes a Maruti and a Hyundai, and then coyly choosing the cheaper of the two. We'd still be stuck with an expensive, if lovely, car.

For an ambitious and developing India, there's better ways to spend one lakh twenty thousand crore rupees (or $20 billion). High-speed rail, or world-class highways could be one option. Buying out a foreign aerospace company (Dassault's market cap today is $15 billion), or at the very least recruiting the same scientists, engineers and designers that may be laid off if we don't splurge on foreign weapons (from BAE, EADS, Dassault etc), and putting them to work on indigenous projects, could be another.

With India tumbling to sub 5% growth, and with dwindling foreign reserves that translate to an export cover of barely 8 months, a fancy new jet is hardly the need of the hour.
Should India spend Rs 1000cr on a single fighter jet? by Yankee Doodle : Sohel Sanghani's blog-The Times Of India

what the hell is going on first media was after tejas and now they are after Rafale.

 

[Immanuel]

The longer wait to sign the deal, the sillier it becomes to go for the Rafale, I think cancellation is the best thing to do, we'd be better off buying the SH International through FMS and considerable TOT as the SH line is closing, it makes sense to transfer the SH assembly line to India, with the LCA MK-2 we for sure can get full-TOT on F414 engines and other goodies, I am sure Unkil will be willing to drop a lot of tech transfer hurdles as being suggested in the Javelin deal.

We might as well consider the F-35 which brings in overall better capability than any of the fighters we currently evaluated, its stealthier, has better avionics and Unkil will certainly entertain the idea of having an Asian assmbly line in India to have better coverage of Asia/ Middle east orders. We might not get full-tot but we aren't getting that for PAKFA either. Like Israel we can go for some customized additions to the F-35. If the order is large enough of 200+, we can easily squeeze a lot of out the deal.

Rafale deal at the current costs of well over 20 billion is quite ridiculous, I am certain we can get the same number of F-35 for less.

 

[pankaj nema]

@Armand2REP

Some good news for Rafale deal Aerospace Diary: EXCLUSIVE! MMRCA- New Year Tidings

Do you have any details