Know Your 'Rafale'

[Armand2REP]

actually a good point @Armand2REP pls give your view

Considering the US is the only nation to have true 5th gen fighters and F-35 is still not operational, it will hardly be the era across the world. Engineers at Thales are developing active cancellation technology, when this is applied it will make all other stealth techniques look obsolete. At the very least it can reduce RCS of Rafale to F-35 levels, at the most it could make it disappear. PAK FA has a .5^m2 RCS, this is not 5th gen.

 

[p2prada]

What are the chances that a decision would be taken before the next General Elections ?

It is an obvious situation actually.

Press will come up with a number of news articles, both praising and criticizing the program.

Due to the secrecy involved, people will make up stories and try to discredit either of the parties in some way or the other. Like in the PAKFA thread, Russia offers a jet to Brazil and there are people discrediting Russia forgetting the fact that Brazil as a partner was on the table since 2002 and was officially offered many times with the latest being in 2009. This current offer is simply meant to stop the current MRCA deal in their country. PAKFA was offered to China as well. India was the second country Sukhoi approached after China.

The truth of the matter is, IAF wants the Rafale, Dassault is desperate to sell and so the deal will happen.

15 years down the line, CAG will come out with a report saying that IAF wasted money on Rafale when the FGFA was so close to completion and brings in much more capability at probably lesser price. Even a govt approved audit will fall on deaf ears. So the only thing hampering the deal today is the usual contract hurdles that both parties must cross before signing.

If we go by IAF and Dassault's words, the negotiations are nearing or already in its last stages. So that's where it is. Simply don't go by any silly negative reports. None of that will hamper the deal.

 

[p2prada]

5th generation means a lot. Im no expert in Science, but i do know that a 5th gen Aircraft features technologies like Stealth,Thrust Vectoring, more advanced avioncs, perhaps a better design,etc. F-35 is technically still "under developement" and furthur evolutions will be made till 2017 before its operational

F-35 will be operational only in 2019. Full capability certification is unknown. 2019 is only for IOC.

Anyway, IAF did not have any interest in a 5th gen aircraft for MRCA. Rafale is required to replace Mig-27 squadrons. And there's nothing better than Rafale to replace it today, not even FGFA or F-22 or F-35.

Price - EXORBITANT! At 20 BIL$ IAF could purchase over 600 Tejas mk1.

Silly comparison. I can buy 30 Nanos for the price of one BMW.

Capabilities and Survivability - I do not doubt Rafale's Cap. and surv. as of today, but looking into the future, 10 years from now ..with Pak FA , FGFA , F-35, J-20 , J-31 , AMCA( ,etc are flying , where does Rafale, even with all its midlife upgrades, stand among them?

Rafale will operate under MKI/FGFA umbrella. So we are not as constrained as other air forces in the 5th gen department.

Even US and Russia plan on operating 4.5th gen aircraft alongside their 5th gen aircraft until 2035-40.

 

[p2prada]

1.Rafale 2017, FGFA 2022, just 5 years gap. Post 2017 is actually the "5th gen era" across the world, our FGFA got a bit delayed.

Regardless, FGFA is an air superiority design with focus on supersonic maneuverability while Rafale is a ground attack design with more focus on low speed capability at lower altitudes. Apples and oranges. It was nice if Rafale was a stealth bird, but it is not and there is no other immediate replacement.

2. Yes, we would have AESA radars and many other upgraded features, but would you want to keep an upgraded Mig21Bison in your fleet now in the 21st century? The same question will be asked about an upgraded Rafale in the year 2040.

Future versions of AMCA or a whole new project will replace start replacing Rafale in the future. As long as Rafale's avionics keeps up with the needs, we will have lesser issues.

4. What to do with the 20BIL$?

Welcome to the 21st century. You need that level of investment to keep your country's military relevant.

FIRSTLY equip our foot soldiers with Level 4 Bullet proof jackets, Kelvar helmets with night vision and handsfree, knee pads, proper boots,etc. These are the BASIC, the rest of F-INSAS can we seen later. Who challenges the insurgents on day to day basis? IAF or IA?

That's going to be part of a "huge" F-INSAS deal IA will sign with DRDO and other private and foreign companies. It may end up being as big as the FGFA contract. The program will be a long one spanning this decade and most of the next one too.

Furthur sanction just 1 Bil$ to Tejas mk2. That will do a lot of good for the aircraft and assembly lines.

Already done and another 1500 Crores was added to manufacture LCAs. LCA Mk2 funding of over $1 Billion already sanctioned.

HAL had seeked 2 Bil$ as an initial investment for the AMCA in 2010. Till today, only a few hundred millions has been sanctioned. Sanction the entire 2 Bil$ at one go. How can we expect our products to meet their deadline if we dont fund them enough? 5th generation aircraft projects take up more than 15 Bil$, and here the Govt. cannot even sanction 2Bil$ on time?

HAL never asked for a $2 Billion request from govt on AMCA. AMCA is currently an ADA project. So DRDO needs that amount sanctioned. Currently AMCA R&D is on hold, once LCA delivers AMCA will happen. So we will need to wait. ADA cannot spare resources on two major projects at once.

5.And lastly , im not taking about changing the contender. Im talking about scrapping the MMRCA all together. It was initiated in 2003. If we had inducted Rafales then it would have made some sense. At this point, the tech is relatively old now and the prices higher due to inflation....it does not make any sense.

The airframe is old, but the aircraft as a whole is still relevant.

And why do we want to make a zoo of weaponaries here? Arent the Su-30MKI, Tejas mk1 , Tejas mk2 , Mig29, Mirage2000 and FGFA and AMCA in future enough varities already? Not to count the older/oudated Mig27 and Jaguars.

Not enough.

China still beats us in the number of platforms. They have nine types vs our six types and double our numbers for each type. So we are going to need something that gives more capability that offsets their numbers advantage. That's where Rafale comes in.

We need to replace around 600 aircraft between 2015 and 2030 and still maintain squadron numbers. It is not possible with FGFA alone. While FGFA is a decade away, AMCA is still 2 decades away. MKI production is coming to an end, so we will need aircraft inductions during the time before FGFA production starts. That's where Rafale fits in.

 

[drkrn]

Considering the US is the only nation to have true 5th gen fighters and F-35 is still not operational, it will hardly be the era across the world. Engineers at Thales are developing active cancellation technology, when this is applied it will make all other stealth techniques look obsolete. At the very least it can reduce RCS of Rafale to F-35 levels, at the most it could make it disappear. PAK FA has a .5^m2 RCS, this is not 5th gen.

good to hear about french r&d.
can you post things in detail.

pakfa has radar cross section of0.005m2
The combined effect is estimated to have reduced the radar cross-section to that of a tennis ball, or approximately 0.005m^2.
Sukhoi PAK FA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[drkrn]

It is an obvious situation actually.

Press will come up with a number of news articles, both praising and criticizing the program.

Due to the secrecy involved, people will make up stories and try to discredit either of the parties in some way or the other. Like in the PAKFA thread, Russia offers a jet to Brazil and there are people discrediting Russia forgetting the fact that Brazil as a partner was on the table since 2002 and was officially offered many times with the latest being in 2009. This current offer is simply meant to stop the current MRCA deal in their country. PAKFA was offered to China as well. India was the second country Sukhoi approached after China.

The truth of the matter is, IAF wants the Rafale, Dassault is desperate to sell and so the deal will happen.

15 years down the line, CAG will come out with a report saying that IAF wasted money on Rafale when the FGFA was so close to completion and brings in much more capability at probably lesser price. Even a govt approved audit will fall on deaf ears. So the only thing hampering the deal today is the usual contract hurdles that both parties must cross before signing.

If we go by IAF and Dassault's words, the negotiations are nearing or already in its last stages. So that's where it is. Simply don't go by any silly negative reports. None of that will hamper the deal.

imo rafale should be seen completely as a different platform.its electronic counter measures are far beyond our necessity and enough to counter china.no need of such costly weapon against pakistan.

but i wish the rafales come completely loaded rather than stripped down versions

 

[SATISH]

Sometimes I feel that a follow on Mirage 2000 deal signed in 1999 would have had more impact on IAF than going for this whole MRCA. And Instead of wasting time on the LCA MK2 we must jump into the AMCA and find a way to get it in the air atleast as an air superiority aircraft.

 

[ersakthivel]

Considering the US is the only nation to have true 5th gen fighters and F-35 is still not operational, it will hardly be the era across the world. Engineers at Thales are developing active cancellation technology, when this is applied it will make all other stealth techniques look obsolete. At the very least it can reduce RCS of Rafale to F-35 levels, at the most it could make it disappear. PAK FA has a .5^m2 RCS, this is not 5th gen.

This is useless talk in practical world.

Come on do you know how many airborne radars are there in air at the same time painting a single RAFALE?

Can a single RAFALE use active cancellation to give F-35 equivalent RCS to all those airborne radars?

the answer is simply-NOT POSSIBLE.

Other than real stealth nothing else helps.

For a cost of 20 billion plus dollars(if you include the total lifecycle cost it will go anywhere near 50 billion) it is the most stupid buy by the IAF considering we are about to enter 5th gen stealth era.


120 million dollars for 4.5th gen plane that is going to be shelled out by IAF for this plane will result in only one thing-- The russians will definitely ask close to 200 million dollars for their 5th gen FGFA citing the simple reason if a 4.5th RAFALE costs 120 million dollar a piece, Why should we sell our 5th gen plane for he same price.

When FGFA is just 6 or seven years away from entering the IAF(if IAF drops its unrealistic demands for "improvements" to PAKFA in its version and accept a first lot of 40 or so fighters in the same config as Russian airforce and will be upgraded to FGFA standards later as it was done in SU-30 MKI contract)

There is no need for this budget busting RAFLE buy.

Time has flown away for the MMRCA contract. An exercise in stupidity if we spend 120 million dollar a piece for 120 4.5th gen plane when true 5th gnPAKFAA is 4 or 5 years away from maturing.

And considering the fear of GOD this UPA regime is placing in the minds of top govt officers to sign on anything thanks to coal gate scam and 2G scam,and Agusta west land scam, it will be a fantasy for IAf to expect the deal to go through before elections.

No officer wants to cool his heels in Thar jail while politician walks away with the money placing retired officials in the line of CBI fire.

 

[rohit b3]

What was the diff between 5th gen and 4++ fighters Just the Stealth is the thing we missed in Rafale even that one have too small RCS .By 2025 we are Going to operate 5th gen 4++ Fighters like Upgraded MiG 29 Super Sukhoi and Su 30 MKI along with Rafales



The Rafales be in Our Arsenal upto 30 Years ..In case of If we keeping 1970 MiG 21 upto 2000 but now 2013 Still we using more than 40 years With Plenty of Upgrades




Agree Completly

We must Keep our Foots Clear and Updated then Only we will go for Flyer's

But Our Govt thinking to Counter the Chinese by Our Air Force with Variety of Jets and AAM .Once I readied somewhere IAF have the Collections of AMM's all around the world which pose Tough Stance against their Enemies .

Just Think about it Tejas MK1 Along with Su 30 MKI and MiG 29 along with Mirage Controlled by a Phalcon with variety of AAM's Should make tough Chance to China to acquire Air Superiority in any region


How Many of us can beleive HAL can make things better if we give open finance Here in the Corrupt Country How I can believe HAL and DRDO

You know How many Projects are scrapped in HAL and DRDO

once some IAF officials Openly stated we are not Satisfied with HAL's Products

Thats my point, 4++ gen and 5th gen arent the same. Stealth is not the only difference. There is a technology/generation leap all together. And Drkrn is right. In this fast changing technologies, soon 5th Generation aircrafts will be upgraded to 5+ generation capabilities. Can you estimate what new technologies will evolve in the next 15 years?
We have Mig29,Mirage2000,Su-30MKI,Super Sukhois, Tejas. That is quite a lot.


The thing is, everything should be balanced. How much of what we need. Is 126 4.5th gen Fighter worth 20Bil$? After 10 years, France will offer their upgrades at another exorbitant amount of maybe 10Bil$? (They are chargin 2.5bil$ to upgrade 50 Mirage2000!!!). They just charge too much,

Is it worth it?? At these economic times, where Rupee is falling, Economic growth has come down.

And we do have options!! Tejas mk2! Concentrate on that!


I agree there is corruption in HAL/DRDO too...but honestly, they develop technologies at much cheaper rates than their western counterparts.

And if you are soo in favour of Rafales, imagine 2030, "Super Power" India flying French 4++ gen jets..while US,Russia and China are developing 6th gen fighters.

 

[SajeevJino]

Thats my point, 4++ gen and 5th gen arent the same. Stealth is not the only difference. There is a technology/generation leap all together. And Drkrn is right. In this fast changing technologies, soon 5th Generation aircrafts will be upgraded to 5+ generation capabilities. Can you estimate what new technologies will evolve in the next 15 years?
We have Mig29,Mirage2000,Su-30MKI,Super Sukhois, Tejas. That is quite a lot.

Ok ..What is the advantage in PAK FA expect Stealth Compared to Rafale F3 ..and Of course Not only Rafale get Upgarde packages near future The FGFA too ..whenever a New Technology is invented It's on the Fighter like how we installing new softwares in our old Computer to use the Software.

Whenever MiG 29 inducted how many times we upgraded New Mission Computers and Electronic warfares and Countermeasures ..why not they came with initial Purchase

The thing is, everything should be balanced. How much of what we need. Is 126 4.5th gen Fighter worth 20Bil$? After 10 years, France will offer their upgrades at another exorbitant amount of maybe 10Bil$? (They are chargin 2.5bil$ to upgrade 50 Mirage2000!!!). They just charge too much,

the same after 10 years the Russians will announce new Upgrade Package for our FGFA

The Costly Upgrades of Mirage is come with most advanced technologies where still not available which Upgrades are OFFERED ..!!

Is it worth it?? At these economic times, where Rupee is falling, Economic growth has come down.

And we do have options!! Tejas mk2! Concentrate on that!

I agree there is corruption in HAL/DRDO too...but honestly, they develop technologies at much cheaper rates than their western counterparts.

And if you are soo in favour of Rafales, imagine 2030, "Super Power" India flying French 4++ gen jets..while US,Russia and China are developing 6th gen fighters.

like the same how @p2prada told ..I can buy 30 nano instead of buying one BMW

What's new still the Super Power US Flying their A 7B and F 16 and F 15 where they already inducted 5th gen fighter 10 years ago

as same the Superpower Russians using MiG 31 as their Interceptor where Still Su 35 awaiting Front line INTERCEPTOR

 

[rohit b3]

F-35 will be operational only in 2019. Full capability certification is unknown. 2019 is only for IOC.

Anyway, IAF did not have any interest in a 5th gen aircraft for MRCA. Rafale is required to replace Mig-27 squadrons. And there's nothing better than Rafale to replace it today, not even FGFA or F-22 or F-35.



Silly comparison. I can buy 30 Nanos for the price of one BMW.



Rafale will operate under MKI/FGFA umbrella. So we are not as constrained as other air forces in the 5th gen department.

Even US and Russia plan on operating 4.5th gen aircraft alongside their 5th gen aircraft until 2035-40.

Originally AMCA was supposed to replace Mig-27s from 2025 onwards.., and its still possible if the AMCA project is brought into the limelight, funded enough and the project is pushed.

Tejas are definately not Nanos, they are a 4th or argubly 4+ gen jet. Tejas mk2 will be a direct substitute to Rafale. Im just waiting to know how much would it cost.

You are trying to give a place to Rafale in the IAF. under that logic i can buy 10 other jets and give each of them a duty and rightful place in the IAF.

Russia cant be taken as a role model, their economy is not totally supporting modernisation.

US on the other hand will start to replace 4+ gen jets when F-35 is inducted, as you say from 2019.

 

[SajeevJino]

Originally AMCA was supposed to replace Mig-27s from 2025 onwards.., and its still possible if the AMCA project is brought into the limelight, funded enough and the project is pushed.

Pls Tell me the induction date of Tejas MK 1

Tejas are definately not Nanos, they are a 4th or argubly 4+ gen jet. Tejas mk2 will be a direct substitute to Rafale. Im just waiting to know how much would it cost.

No way .Once Somebody told Why People are all here to prove Tejas is enough to tackle all other 4++ jets .What is the Result If our Tejas MK 2 head to head on our Su 30 MKI or the Su 35 ..will it survive

You are trying to give a place to Rafale in the IAF. under that logic i can buy 10 other jets and give each of them a duty and rightful place in the IAF.

True...in my minds The IAF looking Rafale can do the works of Mirage and Mig 27 ..Where Tejas is additional like adding troubles for Enemy Jets when they seeing Air Superiority Fighters .

Russia cant be taken as a role model, their economy is not totally supporting modernisation.

Bunch of Nuclear Subs Induction of Su 30SM and Su 35 and upgradion of Mig 31 and MiG 29

US on the other hand will start to replace 4+ gen jets when F-35 is inducted, as you say from 2019.

By 2019 you can see F 16 , F 15 and F 18 along with Some F 35 ..US is possibly to replace their A 10 to F 35 but till now no confirmation

 

[p2prada]

imo rafale should be seen completely as a different platform.its electronic counter measures are far beyond our necessity and enough to counter china.no need of such costly weapon against pakistan.

but i wish the rafales come completely loaded rather than stripped down versions

Our Rafales may end up being more advanced than what the ALA gets.

It is not a stripped down version.

Sometimes I feel that a follow on Mirage 2000 deal signed in 1999 would have had more impact on IAF than going for this whole MRCA. And Instead of wasting time on the LCA MK2 we must jump into the AMCA and find a way to get it in the air atleast as an air superiority aircraft.

Yeah, what would have been even better, LCA. LCA's success would have killed the requirement for MRCA.

 

[rohit b3]

Regardless, FGFA is an air superiority design with focus on supersonic maneuverability while Rafale is a ground attack design with more focus on low speed capability at lower altitudes. Apples and oranges. It was nice if Rafale was a stealth bird, but it is not and there is no other immediate replacement.



Future versions of AMCA or a whole new project will replace start replacing Rafale in the future. As long as Rafale's avionics keeps up with the needs, we will have lesser issues.



Welcome to the 21st century. You need that level of investment to keep your country's military relevant.



That's going to be part of a "huge" F-INSAS deal IA will sign with DRDO and other private and foreign companies. It may end up being as big as the FGFA contract. The program will be a long one spanning this decade and most of the next one too.



Already done and another 1500 Crores was added to manufacture LCAs. LCA Mk2 funding of over $1 Billion already sanctioned.



HAL never asked for a $2 Billion request from govt on AMCA. AMCA is currently an ADA project. So DRDO needs that amount sanctioned. Currently AMCA R&D is on hold, once LCA delivers AMCA will happen. So we will need to wait. ADA cannot spare resources on two major projects at once.



The airframe is old, but the aircraft as a whole is still relevant.



Not enough.

China still beats us in the number of platforms. They have nine types vs our six types and double our numbers for each type. So we are going to need something that gives more capability that offsets their numbers advantage. That's where Rafale comes in.

We need to replace around 600 aircraft between 2015 and 2030 and still maintain squadron numbers. It is not possible with FGFA alone. While FGFA is a decade away, AMCA is still 2 decades away. MKI production is coming to an end, so we will need aircraft inductions during the time before FGFA production starts. That's where Rafale fits in.

Tejas mk2 can cover Rafale's role. FGFA need not be pulled in here. I just gave the FGFA example to show the leap in overall generation of aircrafts.

You are saying AMCA will replace Rafales from 2040? a 5th generation AMCA will join after 2040?? I sincerly hope you are wrong here.


The "Futuristic" soldier programme isnt Futuristic anymore. The way our foot soldiers are equipped, we shudn even consider buyin foriegn jets for 20 Bil$. Such bullet proof jackets, Helmets ,etc are the Basic need of any soldier.

If they have already funded that much to Tejas, they should fund more. How much is the average budget of a 4.5th gen aircraft around the world?

And betwee MKI and FGFA productions, Tejas is there..

600 Aircrafts can be replaced with Tejas mk2, FGFA and some AMCA . and ADA sought 2 bil$ in 2010.

How about we follow the US pattern instead of China and Russia? They mass produce the few vaiety of jets they develop..1000+ F-16s, 600+ F-15.

How about 200 Tejas mk2 and 300 FGFAs? such large production doesn only make it cheaper, it also gives a strong footing on the inidigous development capabilities and MOREVER compete for large Export orders.

So instead of importing Rafales at the cost of our economy for some temporary "filling in", Tejas mk2 will be a good competitor for exports and benifical for the economy. It will also give India a reputation for its equipements which wud lead to more exports of other military equipements.

Any idea how much countries like US and Russia earn out of exports and how substantially it benifits their economy growth..?

 

[rohit b3]

Ok ..What is the advantage in PAK FA expect Stealth Compared to Rafale F3 ..and Of course Not only Rafale get Upgarde packages near future The FGFA too ..whenever a New Technology is invented It's on the Fighter like how we installing new softwares in our old Computer to use the Software.

Whenever MiG 29 inducted how many times we upgraded New Mission Computers and Electronic warfares and Countermeasures ..why not they came with initial Purchase




the same after 10 years the Russians will announce new Upgrade Package for our FGFA

The Costly Upgrades of Mirage is come with most advanced technologies where still not available which Upgrades are OFFERED ..!!



like the same how @p2prada told ..I can buy 30 nano instead of buying one BMW

What's new still the Super Power US Flying their A 7B and F 16 and F 15 where they already inducted 5th gen fighter 10 years ago

as same the Superpower Russians using MiG 31 as their Interceptor where Still Su 35 awaiting Front line INTERCEPTOR

Pak FA has better maneuverability(thrust vectoring), Better speed, Better Service ceiling, Better rate of climb, better weapon load, better range , and various other technical features. FGFA would have 40 improvements over this Pak FA....


Yes we are upgrading Mig-29s, but those upgrades have a limit. Can we add
5th gen technologies like super cruise to Mig29s? No. Similarly Rafale upgrades will have its limits then.


FGFA is a Joint venture, it will be manufactured by HAL in India. Export benifits will be shared 50-50...Its not everything to do with the Russia. If required we can produce more FGFAs during wartime at a quicker rate. Rafale is just another improted aircraft.

Again...are Mirage2000 being upgraded with 5th gen features? Nope.


the Nano-BMW example for Tejas-Rafale does not make sense. Especially for Tejas mk2.


USAF F-22 is not battle ready, it has several bugs and the project is closed.

Su-35 just entered production recently...


I dont understand why Indians have this "Import is better" mentality. Thats a shame.

Most advanced countries are proud of their own products and wudn even consider imports.

 

[p2prada]

Originally AMCA was supposed to replace Mig-27s from 2025 onwards.., and its still possible if the AMCA project is brought into the limelight, funded enough and the project is pushed.

No chance. AMCA is a 16-20 year project. No matter how hard you push for it, 2 decades is the minimum time.

As of today, Rafale will replace Mig-27, AMCA will replace Jaguar.

Tejas are definately not Nanos, they are a 4th or argubly 4+ gen jet. Tejas mk2 will be a direct substitute to Rafale. Im just waiting to know how much would it cost.

Try below Nano. You were talking about Tejas Mk1. Those are bellow Nanos. Tejas Mk2 will be an equivalent in technology, but it will still take 3 Mk2s to do the work of one Rafale. In certain missions, Rafale will be incomparable.

In 2011, they said Tejas Mk2 will cost 210 crores per aircraft, that estimate has to be thrown out of the window with the finalizing of AESA and other 5th gen goodies.

You are trying to give a place to Rafale in the IAF. under that logic i can buy 10 other jets and give each of them a duty and rightful place in the IAF.

Interestingly, IAF is not interested in those other ten birds.

Russia cant be taken as a role model, their economy is not totally supporting modernisation.

Nonsense. Russia is a major oil producing economy and a major exporter of defence products. We can't emulate the same until oil becomes an obsolete commodity and our defence exports are dismal.

US on the other hand will start to replace 4+ gen jets when F-35 is inducted, as you say from 2019.

US won't immediately be replacing the F-15C and Es which will be undergoing an upgrade program. 300-350 F-16s will be upgraded to F-16V standards and will be used until 2030-35. USN is planning a SH replacement program so the SHs will stay until 2035-40. The Growlers will stay until 2050.

F-15C/F-15E
USAF plans F-15 modernization, but pilots want better displays

"A contract for additional testing was awarded in [fiscal year 2010] to recertify the F-15E structure for service to 2035 based on current/projected flying hours and usage severity."

The air force awarded a contract for additional testing on the jet in fiscal year 2009 to recertify the F-15C's structure to push its service life out to 2030. That is "based on current/projected flying hours and usage severity," the official says.

F-16V
F-35 Delay Forces $3 Billion Upgrade Request for U.S. Air Force F-16s | Aviation International News

"We're looking for capability through 2030," said Maj. Gen. Jay Lindell, Air Force director of global power programs.

So, no. A healthy 5th gen fleet allows the operation of a 4th gen fleet at the same time.

Currently USAF is practising methods on using 4th gen aircraft along with 5th gen aircraft.

Rafale is better than all the jets mentioned above in every way possible.

 

[rohit b3]

Pls Tell me the induction date of Tejas MK 1



No way .Once Somebody told Why People are all here to prove Tejas is enough to tackle all other 4++ jets .What is the Result If our Tejas MK 2 head to head on our Su 30 MKI or the Su 35 ..will it survive



True...in my minds The IAF looking Rafale can do the works of Mirage and Mig 27 ..Where Tejas is additional like adding troubles for Enemy Jets when they seeing Air Superiority Fighters .



Bunch of Nuclear Subs Induction of Su 30SM and Su 35 and upgradion of Mig 31 and MiG 29




By 2019 you can see F 16 , F 15 and F 18 along with Some F 35 ..US is possibly to replace their A 10 to F 35 but till now no confirmation

Tejas will be inducted by year end , hopefully. Any other country in India's place would have inducted Tejas long before. We Indians arent sure about our products, so we test it much more than other countries. Tejas test flights have really been flawless.

And the govt. is always trying to import, so indignous products are tested in the roughest ways to prove its worth against the imports.


Tejas mk2 will take down a Su-30MKI in BVR, no doubt. So will a Rafale or Eurofighter. MKI's biggest drawback is its HUGE RCs, while Tejas is a semi stealth Aircraft. A Tejas mk2 with AESA radar will locate the MKI before and with Astra mk2, 150+km missile, can engage it soon enough.

Su-35 would have some RCs reduction features.

If you compare overall Russia and India's military procurements, India should overtake Russia by 2025. India's procurement list is HUGE.

F-35s are actually supposed to replace F-16s and F-15s..look it up. So the replacement will start from 2019 onwards and we will gradually see the 4th gens dissapear..

 

[SajeevJino]

Pak FA has better maneuverability(thrust vectoring), Better speed, Better Service ceiling, Better rate of climb, better weapon load, better range , and various other technical features. FGFA would have 40 improvements over this Pak FA....

Compared to Rafale PAKFA/FGFA is little bit advanced ..and the Rafale can do aanything the PAK FA/FGFA do

Yes we are upgrading Mig-29s, but those upgrades have a limit. Can we add
5th gen technologies like super cruise to Mig29s? No. Similarly Rafale upgrades will have its limits then.

Was that 4++ jets don't have Super cruise @p2prada pls..!! .. does the FGFA upgrade in near future can make it's a 6th gen fighter

FGFA is a Joint venture, it will be manufactured by HAL in India. Export benifits will be shared 50-50...Its not everything to do with the Russia. If required we can produce more FGFAs during wartime at a quicker rate. Rafale is just another improted aircraft.

HAL is not a Hen to give egg everyday It's need Materials must Imported ..and The FGFA deal also in some trouble like involvement of Brazil

Again...are Mirage2000 being upgraded with 5th gen features? Nope.

---

the Nano-BMW example for Tejas-Rafale does not make sense. Especially for Tejas mk2.

Perfectly fit Nano MK 2

USAF F-22 is not battle ready, it has several bugs and the project is closed.

Then which fighter is Performed Top Gun like adventure against a F 14 last year

Lockheed awarded $6.9 billion F-22 upgrade contract Pls read ..!!

Su-35 just entered production recently...

Pls tell them to shut down to make the assembly line to PAK FA

I dont understand why Indians have this "Import is better" mentality. Thats a shame.

Sonia Ji made it ..!!

Most advanced countries are proud of their own products and wudn even consider imports.

 

[SajeevJino]

Tejas will be inducted by year end , hopefully. Any other country in India's place would have inducted Tejas long before. We Indians arent sure about our products, so we test it much more than other countries. Tejas test flights have really been flawless.And the govt. is always trying to import, so indignous products are tested in the roughest ways to prove its worth against the imports.

This Year Really ..

Tejas mk2 will take down a Su-30MKI in BVR, no doubt. So will a Rafale or Eurofighter. MKI's biggest drawback is its HUGE RCs, while Tejas is a semi stealth Aircraft.

No Chance Then Tejas is our frontline Interceptor and Air Superiority Fighter

A Tejas mk2 with AESA radar will locate the MKI before and with Astra mk2, 150+km missile, can engage it soon enough.

That means Su 30 MKI pilot should be in sleeping mode

Su-35 would have some RCs reduction features.

Big No ..!!!

If you compare overall Russia and India's military procurements, India should overtake Russia by 2025. India's procurement list is HUGE.

Pls no more Like this ...Tu 160 is the Answer

F-35s are actually supposed to replace F-16s and F-15s..look it up. So the replacement will start from 2019 onwards and we will gradually see the 4th gens dissapear..

already p2prada answered they will be there upto 2040

 

[p2prada]

Tejas mk2 can cover Rafale's role. FGFA need not be pulled in here. I just gave the FGFA example to show the leap in overall generation of aircrafts.

Tejas Mk2 will be a development struggle. By the time it is "actually" ready, all 126 Rafales will already be in service.

You are saying AMCA will replace Rafales from 2040? a 5th generation AMCA will join after 2040?? I sincerly hope you are wrong here.

Future versions of AMCA will be more in the 2050 timeframe. AMCA Mk2 or AMCA Mk2 and so on.

The "Futuristic" soldier programme isnt Futuristic anymore. The way our foot soldiers are equipped, we shudn even consider buyin foriegn jets for 20 Bil$. Such bullet proof jackets, Helmets ,etc are the Basic need of any soldier.

Let's not confuse IA with IAF. IAF has their own budget and IA has their own budget.

If they have already funded that much to Tejas, they should fund more. How much is the average budget of a 4.5th gen aircraft around the world?

ADA has not asked for more. When the time comes more money will be released for LCA Mk2, the same as was done for LCA Mk1. Mk1 costs have ballooned to $2 Billion already.

And betwee MKI and FGFA productions, Tejas is there..

Actually, you are of the opinion that Tejas is there. IAF is of the opinion that Tejas timeline is horse shit.

600 Aircrafts can be replaced with Tejas mk2, FGFA and some AMCA .

If Mk2 was ready, MRCA deal wouldn't have happened.

and ADA sought 2 bil$ in 2010.

I know. AMCA is currently on hold. So there is no point in disbursing the amount until AMCA starts again. More money has already been spent on Tejas Mk1 anyway. So ADA won't find it difficult to get money for AMCA. It looks like IAF will also be pouring money in for AMCA. Who know, they may develop AMCA on their own.

How about we follow the US pattern instead of China and Russia? They mass produce the few vaiety of jets they develop..1000+ F-16s, 600+ F-15.

How about we first get a $15 Trillion economy first? Then we can talk about mass producing like the US.

How about 200 Tejas mk2 and 300 FGFAs? such large production doesn only make it cheaper, it also gives a strong footing on the inidigous development capabilities and MOREVER compete for large Export orders.

As of today, the truth is it is 0 Tejas Mk2. ADA has asked for only 9 F-414 engines and will be asking for more engines based on how the project continues. So, even ADA is not sure about the future of Tejas Mk2.

Their timeline for LCA Mk2 is completely unrealistic. The AESA radar alone needs 3 or 4 years of testing for certification. Heck NIIP took 4 years just to upgrade Bars to a newer version and even that needed 2 years of lab testing. Saab took 8 years to develop the Gripen E and this is with minimal changes to a very successful Gripen D. We are bound to take more than a decade for the same when our design is significantly less agreeable to changes, namely the inlets, and our first model itself in in question today.

So expect LCA Mk2 to be ready when FGFA is ready for induction.

Any idea how much countries like US and Russia earn out of exports and how substantially it benifits their economy growth..?

Russia's entire defence industrial setup has been running on exports the last 2 decades. Their military has started buying jets only in the last 5 years. And they are getting their new jets only now.

US signed a $30 Billion deal with Saudi Arabia for F-15s.
U.S. Seals $30 Billion Deal to Sell Fighter Jets to Saudi Arabia - WSJ.com

Lot of money, don't you think? That too for an old jet.