Know Your 'Rafale'

Drsomnath999

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Any update/progress in the MMRCA deal ? :(
the problem is that MMRCA negotiator is dead , so it can be delayed or may be a preliminary deal would be signed before mar 2014 as a security deal then main deal after elections.
But who knows


CHEERS
 

drkrn

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the problem is that MMRCA negotiator is dead , so it can be delayed or may be a preliminary deal would be signed before mar 2014 as a security deal then main deal after elections.
But who knows


CHEERS
sorry to hear that.by the way who is the negotiator
 

AVERAGE INDIAN

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The Indian negotiators tend to think they are super smart by making the the French sweat and squeeze them for everything they can get. However, this strategy will turn out to be a double edged sword. Too much bickering will now result in delays due to the elections in 2014 and maybe a cancelation of the contract. Our honourable defence minister has now ordered a review of the life cycle costs of the Rafale, as his style to delay much needed defence contracts to maintain his squeaky clean record. But who suffers? The Indian Armed Forces particularly the IAF

:hookah:
 

AVERAGE INDIAN

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Indian defence minister plays down hopes of swift Rafale deal

India's defence minister on Wednesday poured cold water on hopes that a contract for France to supply 126 Rafale fighter jets will soon be signed. AK Antony said that the deal will have to jump through several hoops before being approved, increasing fears that it will not be closed before a possible change of government next year.

Indian defence minister plays down hopes of swift Rafale deal - France - India - RFI
 

AVERAGE INDIAN

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No deadline for signing 126 M-MRCA deal: A K Antony

Defence Minister A K Antony today refused to set a deadline for conclusion of a multi-billion dollar deal to procure 126 Rafale combat aircraft for the Air Force.

"This is not the issue. Issue is that contract negotiation committee (CNC) is going on and I or the Government cannot interfere with it... How can I set a deadline," he told reporters here.

No deadline for signing 126 M-MRCA deal: A K Antony - The Economic Times
 

p2prada

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The media comes up with one nonsense news after the other and gives importance to non-issues.
 

charlyondfi

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A curious question, please:

What's the time factor here working to this deal? Put the other way, with time passing, exactly it makes Rafale deal more necessary, to IAF, or the opposite way... ...
- I do know this will be about everyone (different) perspective to Rafale and up-coming possibilities like maturing PAKFA, LCA, and such as new technologies. And I saw people talking about depleting IAF squadrons. Still, curious how you look at it, gentlemen?
 
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p2prada

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What's the time factor here working to this deal? Put the other way, with time passing, exactly it makes Rafale deal more necessary, to IAF, or the opposite way... ...
Elections will be held soon, next year. The contract needs to be done in time so the bureaucracy and ministries have enough time to finish their part in the deal before election duties take over. After that the vendor, client and contractors can handle the rest.

March 1st is the beginning of our next fiscal year, so the funds allocated for MRCA will have to be re-allocated and that will bring in more delays. An election would mean the contract will end up delayed for a very long time.

A delay in signature would mean delay in getting the first Rafale.
 

p2prada

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Thanks but my key question is "necessity", ie IAF will need Rafale more, or less, with all these possible delays?
Yeah, we definitely need more. That's why the options for 63 will be on the table for negotiations and will definitely be exercised.

Even with 270 MKIs we still have a lot of Mig-21s and Mig-27s to be replaced.
 

p2prada

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It increasingly appears to look like each squadron will cost us around $4 Billion each including the cost of 10 years maintenance and servicing contract + spares from what we thought would be $3 Billion for each.

So earlier it was $18 Billion for the entire program with 10 years of extras. Now, it looks like $24 Billion. I wonder what changed.

Dassault offered the Swiss 1 Rafale for around $175 Million each with 10 years of extras. The offer to us appears to be $190 Million for each jet from the earlier $145 Million each. Again, I wonder what changed.

I also wonder how much of that cost will really come back to India, including production and offsets.

Or did they add the 69 extra jets to the same contract at a greater discount instead and the deal became much smaller in the process, from what should have been $27 Billion to $24 Billion?

Maybe nothing changed. Just silly rumors.

So, the saying... Nothing is true, everything is permitted.
 

drkrn

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It increasingly appears to look like each squadron will cost us around $4 Billion each including the cost of 10 years maintenance and servicing contract + spares from what we thought would be $3 Billion for each.

So earlier it was $18 Billion for the entire program with 10 years of extras. Now, it looks like $24 Billion. I wonder what changed.

Dassault offered the Swiss 1 Rafale for around $175 Million each with 10 years of extras. The offer to us appears to be $190 Million for each jet from the earlier $145 Million each. Again, I wonder what changed.

I also wonder how much of that cost will really come back to India, including production and offsets.

Or did they add the 69 extra jets to the same contract at a greater discount instead and the deal became much smaller in the process, from what should have been $27 Billion to $24 Billion?

Maybe nothing changed. Just silly rumors.

So, the saying... Nothing is true, everything is permitted.
some statistics say as much as 50 percent will flow back to india.apart from that we may be getting help from french regarding development of indigenous engine for jets.
imo the price hike seems to be ok.

by looking forward at the procurement policies of indian armed forces,follow up orders seems guaranteed( necessary imo).
 

p2prada

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some statistics say as much as 50 percent will flow back to india.
It depends on how many will be made in India and how many made in France (including kits).

apart from that we may be getting help from french regarding development of indigenous engine for jets.
Doesn't look like it. GTRE-Snecma talks fell. A new tender's out.
 

Defcon 1

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It depends on how many will be made in India and how many made in France (including kits).
The offset contract asks for investments equal to the 50% of the value of the deal. How does it depend on the number of jets made in India?
 

p2prada

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The offset contract asks for investments equal to the 50% of the value of the deal. How does it depend on the number of jets made in India?
I don't know how the offsets work. A huge portion of the money will be used to manufacture the jets in India. I don't know if that includes the offsets or not.

Meaning, we will know the cost of the deal between IAF and Dassault+company, but we won't know the contract costs between Dassault and HAL. So here I don't know if the offsets include the investment Dassault will make for the manufacture of the jets or not.

Take for example FGFA. Out of the $5.5 Billion earmarked for R&D, $2.45Billion is to be used to build infrastructure in India, or so they say. Instead if we are paying Dassault $24Billion and they end up using $4 or 5 Billion to build manufacturing infrastructure in India, will that count as offsets investment or not. I hope you are getting my point.
 

p2prada

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Ah, a fully developed French plane + a fully developed arsenal of Russian weapons. That's a deadly combination.
 

ersakthivel

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Stop wasteful military deals - The New Indian Express

French and Israeli pilots who have unofficially flown the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) have gone gaga over its flying attributes. The Tejas will come equipped with an indigenous AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radar — the heart and the brains of any combat aircraft, enabling it to near-instantly switch from air-to-air to air-to-ground missions. The Flight Control System (FCS) of the Tejas is so advanced, it can deal with the sort of turbulence in flight that its counterpart onboard the Eurofighter — supposedly technologically superior to the Rafale, plainly cannot, as per an expert familiar with the FCS in both aircraft. This deficiency nearly ended in disaster for the Eurofighter on several occasions but was not disclosed by EADS to IAF during the jockeying for the MMRCA contract. The larger, heavier, longer range Mark-II variant of the near all-composite Tejas, in fact, fills the bill of "MMRCA". An LCA version of Tejas has already been flown weighted down with ballast to mimic the Mk-II plan-form. The fact that the Mk-II variant was coming along well, besides, was known to the IAF-MoD (ministry of defence) combo. So, how come the tender for MMRCA was not terminated midway?

The Mk-II's chances were scuppered by IAF-MoD on the ground that Tejas was not operational. But the LCA has been prevented from entering squadron service after it obtained the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC)-1 last year, because of their insistence that IOC-2 and subsequent clearances be done by HAL rather than permitting the clearances to be obtained by the designated Tejas squadron, flying the aircraft, at the Sulur base in Tamil Nadu. The latter procedure will allow our fighter pilots to test the plane's flight envelope and performance, and to provide feedback to designers — normal practice of advanced air forces inducting a new locally-produced aircraft. Further, rather than restricting the initial off-take to just 46 aircraft, MoD should order the full complement of 7-8 squadrons worth of Tejas to facilitate economies of scale and the farming out of work by HAL to private industry, thereby growing it. In the interim, additional "super Sukhois" could have been procured for a total force of some 70-plus of these planes, inarguably the finest combat aircraft now flying.


The fact is the original price tag for the MMRCA deal of $12-15 billion is set to balloon to $26-30 billion. Why? For one thing, having won the MMRCA contest, the French company, Dassault, doesn't want to abide by the contract requiring the plane to be manufactured at HAL under license with transfer of technology (TOT). Dassault maintains it cannot guarantee Rafales made in India unless its chosen private sector partner, Reliance Aerospace, is tasked with its production. The arrangement with Reliance, however, is to have it import all of the most high-value assemblies and avionics as "black boxes" for the duration of the Indian production run, keeping over 500 French firms employing a workforce of 7,000 people, according to a French newsletter, L'Úsine Novelle, in the clover for the next few decades!

The real kicker here is the fact that while India will pay for full TOT — amounting to tens of billions of dollars — no meaningful technology (flight control laws and source codes) will, as in past such deals, ever actually get transferred. New Delhi as always will pay up, not caring whether India gets what it paid for or not and, even less, whether it will ever become self-sufficient in arms. It may be better to simply buy 126 Rafales off the shelf if the IAF deems it such a critical need, when it is not, rather than pay through our ears for technology we won't get.

The conjoined Mk-II Tejas-Super Sukhois option will make Rafale redundant,
 
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