Know Your 'Rafale'

[lookieloo]

It won't make a difference. Come clean with ToT and industrial offsets clause and the deal is yours. Don't come clean and there will be liabilities.

It's not a question of coming clean. It's a question of HAL's ability to absorb said technology and Dessault's liability in matters beyond its positive control. It's telling that a company so "desperate" still isn't ready to take such a risk, and your comparison to the MKI isn't relevant to the current situation. As evidenced by other projects, the Russians clearly have a free-pass in India whenever delays/overruns arise in a program; so rest-assured... they'll always be willing to promise whatever y'all want.

 

[p2prada]

It's not a question of coming clean. It's a question of HAL's ability to absorb said technology and Dessault's liability in matters beyond its positive control. It's telling that a company so "desperate" still isn't ready to take such a risk, and your comparison to the MKI isn't relevant to the current situation. As evidenced by other projects, the Russians clearly have a free-pass in India whenever delays/overruns arise in a program; so rest-assured... they'll always be willing to promise whatever y'all want.

That's why I said take it or leave it.

If you want a near 200 aircraft deal or maybe more, you are going to have to make some compromises. If HAL cannot deliver then bring them to the level where they can.

That's the reason why Sukhoi have their personnel in HAL and the MKIs' manufacturing and assembly is watched by the Russians at every step.

The Russians have no free passes is India, the same quality rules exist for Sukhoi too and the reason why they still have people in India to make sure quality is not compromised.

It is the West which is more used to getting free-passes and single vendor contracts, India is no Banana Republic. The minute the rules of the game become tougher, they start whining. Go read up on the civilian nuclear deals that are being signed after 2008. Even with a pre-2008 deal, the Russians are still being brought into the liability law for current projects.

The Russians have never had it easy dealing with India, that's why they part with so much technology in so little time, of course we pay good money. In fact, western countries like US are actually promising Russia-equivalent development contracts with Indian entities today. You are going to have to prove what you say, not make sweeping statements without any knowledge.

You want to play our game, you play by our rules. If you can't, then leave the game.

 

[lookieloo]

That's why I said take it or leave it. [...] You want to play our game, you play by our rules. If you can't, then leave the game.

If the GoI's attitude is as arrogant as yours...
... don't be too surprised if ^^^ this ^^^ eventually happens. Enjoy waiting for the Mig-35

 

[p2prada]

If the GoI's attitude is as arrogant as yours...

Exactly.

Poor George will be playing the part of Dasasult, if this happens.

Boeing, MiG, EADS, Saab and LM already played that part and left. So this has already happened.

Anyway, Dassault is playing by the rules, so no issues there. Dassault's George is getting his soup.

 

[lookieloo]

Oh my.

Exactly.

Poor George will be playing the part of Dasasult, if this happens.

Boeing, MiG, EADS, Saab and LM already played that part and left. So this has already happened.

Anyway, Dassault is playing by the rules, so no issues there. Dassault's George is getting his soup.

 

[p2prada]

It's funny that you "want" things not to go our way.

You are finding it so hard to believe that western countries and companies are willing to bend over backwards just to accommodate Indian wishes.

Google Indo-US nuclear deal and see who bent over backwards. See who is passing restrictive nuclear liability laws and still find vendors lining up.

 

[Defcon 1]

It's funny that you "want" things not to go our way.

You are finding it so hard to believe that western countries and companies are willing to bend over backwards just to accommodate Indian wishes.

Google Indo-US nuclear deal and see who bent over backwards. See who is passing restrictive nuclear liability laws and still find vendors lining up.

Seems that someone is suffering from acute "white superiority complex" here. Anyways, given the position of Dassault, they are not really capable of setting terms of negotiation, Tejas IOC-2 in coming months will also give us an upper hand in negotiations. Keep calm and Hodor Hodor

 

[Drsomnath999]

French were 'hours' from military strikes on Syria before phone call from Obama

Rafale aircraft were readied that Saturday for take-off and official statements prepared in anticipation of the strikes, according to the Nouvel Observateur. "Everything made us think that D-Day had arrived," a French official is quoted as saying. The magazine said that "this incredible misunderstanding lasted until the end of the afternoon," at 6.15pm, when President Obama telephoned Mr Hollande, who was expecting to confirm the military orders just after the phone call. The strikes had been intended to start at 3am later that night, targeting missile batteries and command centres of the 4th Armoured Division in charge of chemical weapons.

for more
French were 'hours' from military strikes on Syria before phone call from Obama - Europe - World - The Independent

 

[p2prada]

Seems that someone is suffering from acute "white superiority complex" here. Anyways, given the position of Dassault, they are not really capable of setting terms of negotiation, Tejas IOC-2 in coming months will also give us an upper hand in negotiations. Keep calm and Hodor Hodor

Yeah, we have a lot of negotiation advantages here.

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

one question , r we getting tech for engines too if deal happens ?

 

[p2prada]

one question , r we getting tech for engines too if deal happens ?

We don't know yet. The contract is yet to be signed.

 

[Shirman]

@p2prada
Hi, P2P lets say Rafale deal is signed in December this year and induction takes place in 2017-18 how many Tejas Mk.1 and Mk.2 would have been inducted by then.......give me your true estimates also will our Mig-29Upg program will ever be fulfilled also can IAI-DRDO AESA radar proposed on Tejas MK.2 can be fitted on Mig-29 upgs........ME thinks it can be a good force multiplier.....also Wiki says EL/M-2052 is suitable for F-15, Mig-29, Mirage-2000 and lca tejas......:-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EL/M-2052

Can Zhuk-Ae Aesa radar be fitted on Mig-29upgs...... in future also Somebody said that now Israel and IAI will not require American permission to sell this radar as it is fully developed in Israel......can you confirm this......Thanks........

 

[Drsomnath999]

French military budget 2014: focus on equipment

The defense budget for 2014 will be presented tomorrow. It provides for 16.5 billion euros of expenditure on equipment including:

Deliveries:

- 220 AASM
- 11 Rafale (among them 8 Rafale B intended to replace the Mirage 2000N of the second nuclear squadron)
- 2 upgraded Rafale M (F1->F3)

Order:

- 19 new generation laser designation pods (PDL NG intended to replace the current Damocles pods)

More:

Budget 2014 : le point sur les équipements - Air&Cosmos

 

[p2prada]

@p2prada
Hi, P2P lets say Rafale deal is signed in December this year and induction takes place in 2017-18 how many Tejas Mk.1 and Mk.2 would have been inducted by then.......give me your true estimates also will our Mig-29Upg program will ever be fulfilled also can IAI-DRDO AESA radar proposed on Tejas MK.2 can be fitted on Mig-29 upgs........ME thinks it can be a good force multiplier.....also Wiki says EL/M-2052 is suitable for F-15, Mig-29, Mirage-2000 and lca tejas......:-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EL/M-2052
Can Zhuk-Ae Aesa radar be fitted on Mig-29upgs......

We should take 6 years for full production and delivery of the 40 MK1s. The Mk2s will start after, if it succeeds. Mig-29UPG program will be done before LCA achieves FOC. It can be upgraded with AESA but we don't plan on that. Apparently the current Mig-29s cannot be upgraded with AESA without major changes. If we do go for AESA, it will be the Zhuk-AE.

in future also Somebody said that now Israel and IAI will not require American permission to sell this radar as it is fully developed in Israel......can you confirm this......Thanks........

Israel is transferring technology for the LCA program.

 

[happy]

It's not a question of coming clean. It's a question of HAL's ability to absorb said technology and Dessault's liability in matters beyond its positive control. It's telling that a company so "desperate" still isn't ready to take such a risk, and your comparison to the MKI isn't relevant to the current situation. As evidenced by other projects, the Russians clearly have a free-pass in India whenever delays/overruns arise in a program; so rest-assured... they'll always be willing to promise whatever y'all want.

Why are you so obsessed with this deal? Is it because the US lost out ???

Don't worry, we are buying other hardware from Uncle Sam.

 

[Neil]

IAF Chief Sounds First Anxious Note On MMRCA

He's been known to be unequivocally optimistic about the $20-billion M-MRCA fighter competition so far, but IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne sounded anxious and uncertain over the deal, currently still in negotiations.

"We have no back-up plan. We need to get the deal going, or we'll face a big shortfall of fighters in the 2017-22 period," said Browne at his annual press conference ahead of Air Force Day on October 8. "The deal has to work. There's no other option."

The IAF chief rued the death of MoD Joint Secretary (Acquisitions) Arun Bal, saying his demise was tragic and a setback to several acquisition cases, particularly the MMRCA, which he handled directly.

"Negotiations on the MMRCA are still on. Cannot place a timeline on when the deal will be signed," the IAF chief said, marking the first time when he's left the timeframe open. In the past, Browne has commonly put down a specific time by which he said he expected the deal or paperwork to be complete.

Dismissing speculation about exchange rate fluctuations jeopardising high-value acquisitions like the MMRCA, the Chief said such contingencies had been accounted for, and wouldn't impact the acquisition decision.


http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/31082-dassault-rafale-wins-mmrca-197.html

 

[Neil]

IAF chief feeling nervous about MMRCA defence deal


Three months before he hangs up his flying boots, Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne has expressed nervousness and uncertainty for the first time over the country's largest-ever military contract currently under negotiation: the $20-billion medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal for 126 French-built Rafale fighters.

Browne, who has expressed consistent optimism that a deal would be signed by the end of 2013, has struck his first note of anxiousness, no longer willing to put a time-frame to the deal, providing perhaps the clearest indication that it could be delayed.

"We have no back-up plan. If the MMRCA deal isn't signed, there will be a rapid decline in fighter numbers between 2017 and 22. It is imperative that the deal is signed quickly," Browne said at his annual press conference on Friday.

The IAF celebrates its 81st Air Force Day on October 8.

"Negotiations on the MMRCA are still on. Cannot place a timeline on when the deal will be signed. If the deal is delayed till next year, the first aircraft will arrive only in 2017," the chief said.

Over the past 18 months, the Chief has consistently sounded hopeful, assured that the deal would be signed variously by early 2013, mid-2013 and end 2013. For the first time, he doesn't sound so sure anymore.

The sudden death on Wednesday of Arun Kumar Bal, Ministry of Defence's pointsperson on acquisitions and specifically the MMRCA deal, is tragic, and a major setback to the deal, since he was fully in control of the acquisition, said Browne.

Bal had suffered a massive heart attack earlier this week near his Delhi residence.

The Defence Ministry has been in contract negotiations with the Rafale's maker Dassault Aviation for over 18 months now, in a matrix of highly complex discussions over offsets, transfer of technology, maintenance and several other heads in what is easily the country's most strenuous acquisition effort.

In January 2012, the Dassault Rafale was won the high-voltage competition, defeating the European Typhoon and four other jets, including the US-built F-16, F/A-18, Sweden's Gripen and the Russian MiG-35.

The Indian Air Force currently operates 34 combat aircraft squadrons, comprised of Su-30 MKIs, MiG-21s, MiG-29s, Mirage 2000s, MiG-27s and Jaguars.

Against a sanctioned strength of 42 squadrons, this already represents a serious shortfall.


IAF chief nervous over biggest defence deal : North, News - India Today

 

[Neil]

IAF Chief Sounds First Anxious Note On MMRCA

He's been known to be unequivocally optimistic about the $20-billion M-MRCA fighter competition so far, but IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne sounded anxious and uncertain over the deal, currently still in negotiations.

"We have no back-up plan. We need to get the deal going, or we'll face a big shortfall of fighters in the 2017-22 period," said Browne at his annual press conference ahead of Air Force Day on October 8. "The deal has to work. There's no other option."

The IAF chief rued the death of MoD Joint Secretary (Acquisitions) Arun Bal, saying his demise was tragic and a setback to several acquisition cases, particularly the MMRCA, which he handled directly.

"Negotiations on the MMRCA are still on. Cannot place a timeline on when the deal will be signed," the IAF chief said, marking the first time when he's left the timeframe open. In the past, Browne has commonly put down a specific time by which he said he expected the deal or paperwork to be complete.

Dismissing speculation about exchange rate fluctuations jeopardising high-value acquisitions like the MMRCA, the Chief said such contingencies had been accounted for, and wouldn't impact the acquisition decision.

Livefist


wrong courtesy....!! my bad...

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

No such comment from Government, Ministry of Defense and HAL officials. What are the reasons for this deal getting delayed?

 

[rohit b3]

Has anyone noticed how Browne is always desperately pushing for imports, whether it is fighter or trainers or light utility helicopters, and always using terms like "Shortfall" , "immidiate requirement",etc.

And we all know his attitute towards HAL.