Know Your 'Rafale'

[Neil]

No such comment from Government, Ministry of Defense and HAL officials. What are the reasons for this deal getting delayed?

Top Indian MoD Acquisitions Man Dies

In tragic news, the Indian MoD's pointsman on several sensitive and crucial cases and files, Arun Kumar Bal, died early this morning after a massive heart-attack near his Delhi home. As Joint Secretary (Acquisitions), he was best known as the top man dealing with the AgustaWestland AW101 VVIP chopper scam case, and also attended hearings in Italy earlier this year.

Separately, Mr Bal was also handling the crucial MMRCA file and all pending acquisitions from the U.S.

Condolences to his family.


Livefist

r.i.p and condolences and prayers for his families and friends....

 

[Neil]

MMRCA Deal By March 2014: IAF Deputy Chief

The MMRCA fighter deal will be signed within this financial year, Air Marshal S. Sukumar, Deputy Chief of Air Staff has said today. He was speaking at the 8th International Conference on Energising Indian Aerospace Conference jointly organized by Confederation of Indian Industry, Indian Air Force & Centre for Air Power Studies in New Delhi.



Livefist

 

[ramakrishna]

can rafale be good enough to tackle F16/22-35 ????

 

[rohit b3]

can rafale be good enough to tackle F16/22-35 ????

F-16 yes, F-22 or F-35, No.

 

[rohit b3]

MMRCA Deal By March 2014: IAF Deputy Chief

The MMRCA fighter deal will be signed within this financial year, Air Marshal S. Sukumar, Deputy Chief of Air Staff has said today. He was speaking at the 8th International Conference on Energising Indian Aerospace Conference jointly organized by Confederation of Indian Industry, Indian Air Force & Centre for Air Power Studies in New Delhi.



Livefist

Deal signed in March 2014.

First 16 Aircrafts delivered by 2017. Subsequently 15 Aircrafts(approx)/year are produced.

5th generation fighters start entering service by that time..

Deliveries completed by 2025.(126 Rafales)


4++ Gen Rafale , which had its first flight in 1986, and induction in 2003, starts ot get old by 2030, subsequently outdated by 2040.

20BIL$ gone into the drains, and again a big worry for IAF how to replace the huge outdated fleet.


Im still keeping my fingers crossed hoping this deal would be cancelled!

 

[halloweene]

can rafale be good enough to tackle F16/22-35 ????

You cannot pose the problem in such a imple way. Fighters are part of networks, so many things about tactical situation, situation awareness, tactics, other assets present etc.

 

[halloweene]

Deal signed in March 2014.

First 16 Aircrafts delivered by 2017. Subsequently 15 Aircrafts(approx)/year are produced.

5th generation fighters start entering service by that time..

Deliveries completed by 2025.(126 Rafales)


4++ Gen Rafale , which had its first flight in 1986, and induction in 2003, starts ot get old by 2030, subsequently outdated by 2040.

20BIL$ gone into the drains, and again a big worry for IAF how to replace the huge outdated fleet.


Im still keeping my fingers crossed hoping this deal would be cancelled!

There isnt a single common part between Rafale A prototype you are quoting and Rafale F3 presently in production. 5th Gen mean just nothing but LM marketing dating from F22 (btw, F35 isnt 5th Gen according to LM standards...), talk in terms of price, capabilities or survivability please. You should also take into account the evolutions planned...

 

[Neil]

India to finalize $15 billion Rafale deal by March, Indian Air Force says


India will finalize a $15 billion deal to buy 126 Rafale fighter jets from France's Dassault Aviation by March 2014, an Indian Air Force official said on Thursday, after the deal had been held up by differences over local manufacturing.

India picked the Rafale for exclusive negotiations in January 2012 after a bidding contest against Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft, made by a consortium involving EADS, Finmeccanica and BAE Systems.

However, there were differences over the role of India's state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd in manufacturing the jets.

Air Marshal S Sukumar, deputy chief of Air staff, told an aerospace conference the deal would be signed within the current financial year, according to a statement issued by conference organizer, the Confederation of Indian Industry.

Under the deal, Dassault is expected to send 18 ready-made jets and would manufacture the rest in India. Hindustan Aeronautics will be its lead partner.

Dassault had earlier expressed doubts about the ability of the local partner to make such a sophisticated fighter. Hindustan Aeronautics has been developing a light combat aircraft since the early 1980s with no success so far.

A spokesman for Dassault declined to comment. The French company is still hoping to finalize the deal by the end of the 2013.

India's government wants to encourage Indian companies to partner with foreign suppliers to reduce its reliance on imports and boost a domestic defence industry that is dominated by underperforming public sector companies.

A separate tender to buy and build 56 military transport planes at an estimated cost of 119 billion rupees has been extended by two months, Sukumar also said. The defence ministry launched the tender in May to replace an ageing fleet of Avro jets.

The ministry had originally said the transport planes deal must be struck between a foreign supplier and an Indian private company. However, heavy industries minister Praful Patel said last week that public-sector firms already making products for the armed forces should have been allowed to take part in the bidding.

The defence ministry has said it will look into Patel's complaint, potentially delaying the tender. Many of India's foreign arms purchases run into long delays because of accusations of corruption and bureaucratic complications.



India to finalize $15 billion Rafale deal by March, Indian Air Force says | idrw.org

 

[SajeevJino]

Deal signed in March 2014.

First 16 Aircrafts delivered by 2017. Subsequently 15 Aircrafts(approx)/year are produced.

5th generation fighters start entering service by that time..

FGFA likely to enter service by 2020

Deliveries completed by 2025.(126 Rafales)

Those are advanced versions of Rafale even sometimes with AESA radar

4++ Gen Rafale , which had its first flight in 1986, and induction in 2003, starts ot get old by 2030, subsequently outdated by 2040.

Rafale F3 is new one will keep it our arsenal by 2050

20BIL$ gone into the drains, and again a big worry for IAF how to replace the huge outdated fleet.

Shall we invest this amount in AMCA

Im still keeping my fingers crossed hoping this deal would be cancelled!

There is no way of Changing the Contender or the order ..the MRCA tender opened in the 2003

 

[halloweene]

Those are advanced versions of Rafale even sometimes with AESA radar

Every indian Rafales will be equipped with AESA. Stong rumours also say towed decoy (?, lil weird as LEA program of launched decoy is on the way), Litening pod and HMS.

 

[Armand2REP]

MMRCA Deal By March 2014: IAF Deputy Chief

The MMRCA fighter deal will be signed within this financial year, Air Marshal S. Sukumar, Deputy Chief of Air Staff has said today. He was speaking at the 8th International Conference on Energising Indian Aerospace Conference jointly organized by Confederation of Indian Industry, Indian Air Force & Centre for Air Power Studies in New Delhi.



Livefist

Despite all the negative press against it, my source at Dassault came through.

 

[p2prada]

Despite all the negative press against it, my source at Dassault came through.

Of course. The press isn't a decision making body.

They latch on to anything they get, positive or negative.

 

[TrueSpirit]

Of course. The press isn't a decision making body.

They latch on to anything they get, positive or negative.

What are the chances that a decision would be taken before the next General Elections ?

 

[Armand2REP]

Of course. The press isn't a decision making body.

They latch on to anything they get, positive or negative.

I am just glad to bring the news to DFI first well before the press gets an official release.

 

[halloweene]

Audition of french MoD by assembly (google translation, i'm lazy)

Mr. Folliot, the White Paper states that the fighter aircraft will have 225 aircraft in 2025. To achieve this will require Rafale and Mirage 2000 D renovated. The draft LPM provides control of 26 Rafale - 11 in 2014, 11 in 2015 and four in 2016. We will have to eventually replace the Mirage 2000, also does not order the 2016 does mark the end of the commands of Rafale. The text also provides for the development of the new F3R standard Rafale cause an expenditure of € 1.1 billion, which must be added 700 million for the aircraft of the future - namely the UCAV that n 'is at present at the stage of studies.

I am convinced that we will succeed and, in 2014, we know a successful export. If this was not the case would proceed to a revision in 2015.

 

[rohit b3]

There isnt a single common part between Rafale A prototype you are quoting and Rafale F3 presently in production. 5th Gen mean just nothing but LM marketing dating from F22 (btw, F35 isnt 5th Gen according to LM standards...), talk in terms of price, capabilities or survivability please. You should also take into account the evolutions planned...

There's nothing common, between the prototype and the final product, yet that was the basis of its design.

5th generation means a lot. Im no expert in Science, but i do know that a 5th gen Aircraft features technologies like Stealth,Thrust Vectoring, more advanced avioncs, perhaps a better design,etc. F-35 is technically still "under developement" and furthur evolutions will be made till 2017 before its operational

Price - EXORBITANT! At 20 BIL$ IAF could purchase over 600 Tejas mk1.

Capabilities and Survivability - I do not doubt Rafale's Cap. and surv. as of today, but looking into the future, 10 years from now ..with Pak FA , FGFA , F-35, J-20 , J-31 , AMCA( ,etc are flying , where does Rafale, even with all its midlife upgrades, stand among them?

The main concern is actually the Price and India's history of recieving kickbacks with such senseless defence deals, especially with Eu.

 

[rohit b3]

FGFA likely to enter service by 2020



Those are advanced versions of Rafale even sometimes with AESA radar




Rafale F3 is new one will keep it our arsenal by 2050


Shall we invest this amount in AMCA



There is no way of Changing the Contender or the order ..the MRCA tender opened in the 2003

1.Rafale 2017, FGFA 2022, just 5 years gap. Post 2017 is actually the "5th gen era" across the world, our FGFA got a bit delayed.


2. Yes, we would have AESA radars and many other upgraded features, but would you want to keep an upgraded Mig21Bison in your fleet now in the 21st century? The same question will be asked about an upgraded Rafale in the year 2040.

3.Offcourse we will keep it till 2050. We have the habit of keeping outdated equipements in our inventory. Mig21,27,etc..

4. What to do with the 20BIL$?

FIRSTLY equip our foot soldiers with Level 4 Bullet proof jackets, Kelvar helmets with night vision and handsfree, knee pads, proper boots,etc. These are the BASIC, the rest of F-INSAS can we seen later. Who challenges the insurgents on day to day basis? IAF or IA?

Furthur sanction just 1 Bil$ to Tejas mk2. That will do a lot of good for the aircraft and assembly lines.

HAL had seeked 2 Bil$ as an initial investment for the AMCA in 2010. Till today, only a few hundred millions has been sanctioned. Sanction the entire 2 Bil$ at one go. How can we expect our products to meet their deadline if we dont fund them enough? 5th generation aircraft projects take up more than 15 Bil$, and here the Govt. cannot even sanction 2Bil$ on time?


5.And lastly , im not taking about changing the contender. Im talking about scrapping the MMRCA all together. It was initiated in 2003. If we had inducted Rafales then it would have made some sense. At this point, the tech is relatively old now and the prices higher due to inflation....it does not make any sense.

And why do we want to make a zoo of weaponaries here? Arent the Su-30MKI, Tejas mk1 , Tejas mk2 , Mig29, Mirage2000 and FGFA and AMCA in future enough varities already? Not to count the older/oudated Mig27 and Jaguars.

 

[drkrn]

1.Rafale 2017, FGFA 2022, just 5 years gap. Post 2017 is actually the "5th gen era" across the world, our FGFA got a bit delayed.

.

actually a good point @Armand2REP pls give your view

 

[SajeevJino]

1.Rafale 2017, FGFA 2022, just 5 years gap. Post 2017 is actually the "5th gen era" across the world, our FGFA got a bit delayed.

What was the diff between 5th gen and 4++ fighters Just the Stealth is the thing we missed in Rafale even that one have too small RCS .By 2025 we are Going to operate 5th gen 4++ Fighters like Upgraded MiG 29 Super Sukhoi and Su 30 MKI along with Rafales

2. Yes, we would have AESA radars and many other upgraded features, but would you want to keep an upgraded Mig21Bison in your fleet now in the 21st century? The same question will be asked about an upgraded Rafale in the year 2040.

3.Offcourse we will keep it till 2050. We have the habit of keeping outdated equipements in our inventory. Mig21,27,etc..

The Rafales be in Our Arsenal upto 30 Years ..In case of If we keeping 1970 MiG 21 upto 2000 but now 2013 Still we using more than 40 years With Plenty of Upgrades

4. What to do with the 20BIL$?

FIRSTLY equip our foot soldiers with Level 4 Bullet proof jackets, Kelvar helmets with night vision and handsfree, knee pads, proper boots,etc. These are the BASIC, the rest of F-INSAS can we seen later. Who challenges the insurgents on day to day basis? IAF or IA?

Furthur sanction just 1 Bil$ to Tejas mk2. That will do a lot of good for the aircraft and assembly lines.

HAL had seeked 2 Bil$ as an initial investment for the AMCA in 2010. Till today, only a few hundred millions has been sanctioned. Sanction the entire 2 Bil$ at one go. How can we expect our products to meet their deadline if we dont fund them enough? 5th generation aircraft projects take up more than 15 Bil$, and here the Govt. cannot even sanction 2Bil$ on time?


5.And lastly , im not taking about changing the contender. Im talking about scrapping the MMRCA all together. It was initiated in 2003. If we had inducted Rafales then it would have made some sense. At this point, the tech is relatively old now and the prices higher due to inflation....it does not make any sense.

And why do we want to make a zoo of weaponaries here? Arent the Su-30MKI, Tejas mk1 , Tejas mk2 , Mig29, Mirage2000 and FGFA and AMCA in future enough varities already? Not to count the older/oudated Mig27 and Jaguars.

Agree Completly

We must Keep our Foots Clear and Updated then Only we will go for Flyer's

But Our Govt thinking to Counter the Chinese by Our Air Force with Variety of Jets and AAM .Once I readied somewhere IAF have the Collections of AMM's all around the world which pose Tough Stance against their Enemies .

Just Think about it Tejas MK1 Along with Su 30 MKI and MiG 29 along with Mirage Controlled by a Phalcon with variety of AAM's Should make tough Chance to China to acquire Air Superiority in any region


How Many of us can beleive HAL can make things better if we give open finance Here in the Corrupt Country How I can believe HAL and DRDO

You know How many Projects are scrapped in HAL and DRDO

once some IAF officials Openly stated we are not Satisfied with HAL's Products

 

[drkrn]

What was the diff between 5th gen and 4++ fighters Just the Stealth is the thing we missed in Rafale even that one have too small RCS .By 2025 we are Going to operate 5th gen 4++ Fighters like Upgraded MiG 29 Super Sukhoi and Su 30 MKI along with Rafales



The Rafales be in Our Arsenal upto 30 Years ..In case of If we keeping 1970 MiG 21 upto 2000 but now 2013 Still we using more than 40 years With Plenty of Upgrades




Agree Completly

We must Keep our Foots Clear and Updated then Only we will go for Flyer's

But Our Govt thinking to Counter the Chinese by Our Air Force with Variety of Jets and AAM .Once I readied somewhere IAF have the Collections of AMM's all around the world which pose Tough Stance against their Enemies .

Just Think about it Tejas MK1 Along with Su 30 MKI and MiG 29 along with Mirage Controlled by a Phalcon with variety of AAM's Should make tough Chance to China to acquire Air Superiority in any region


How Many of us can beleive HAL can make things better if we give open finance Here in the Corrupt Country How I can believe HAL and DRDO

You know How many Projects are scrapped in HAL and DRDO

once some IAF officials Openly stated we are not Satisfied with HAL's Products

after 20 years there will be possibility to upgrade current 5th gen planes to 5++ not 4th gen planes.though rafale has very low rcs,still its not a 5th gen ac.the only area where it excels pakfa is its electronic warfare capability.
why don't we upgrade pakfa using french and israeli avionics+electronics.