Know Your 'Rafale'

[p2prada]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

You sure it will be here before 2016? As for me i am waiting since before we signed for those extra 10 Mirage 2000s...

Contractual obligations will be binding once signed within this year. Also note Dassault keeps to schedules, unlike our DPSUs. Even if HAL production is delayed, the first 18 will be delivered in time.

Even considering it is signed in July. Delivery will happen in 36 months, that's July 2016.

You can't consider tendering process in this.

 

[p2prada]

Why can't that be addressed by opening another SU-30MKI line?

A filler is a filler anyway and SU-30MKI scores better on point of quick delivery and operational( no need it already is). In fact this option will address problem of strength depletion at least 2 years earlier than any new design. No?

Maybe the MKI cannot handle multiple sorties like Rafale or any other smaller aircraft can in a day. That's why the need for a smaller aircraft.

While MKI may take to the skies and stay in the air for 10 hours at a stretch in the air superiority role, Rafale may be used for continuous strike sorties which require repeated take offs and landings in a single day while conserving fuel and quick turnaround times, which the MKI is not suited for as of today.

Rafale has demonstrated multiple sorties capability in Libya. In high tempo operations we may possibly exceed 4 in a single day. F-35B is expected to do 4, IIRC. Some Rafales handled 6 sorties, IIRC.

MKI uses larger quantities of fuel for take off compared to the smaller aircraft. For a military, finances are unlimited during war. Spares can be bought from Russia in large quantities. Heck, we may be able to pressure them into giving us their war stocks too, like we did with Israel in 1999 for LGBs. But perishable stocks are always limited. So conserving fuel takes more importance than other costs.

With Rafale's lesser fuel costs + greater sorties, we can deliver more hurt to the enemy compared to MKI while freeing up the MKIs to focus on air dominance.

Btw, the need for a medium sized aircraft was considered at the same time as MKI was considered. Medium sized aircraft at the time even included Mirage-2000. Rafale merely provided access to next gen technology while MKI was being manufactured. Due to delays, even MKIs will have next gen avionics at the same time as Rafale. Can't help it, but the requirement for a medium aircraft still exists.

 

[santosh_g]

following page has fairly good comparision between rafale and MKI..

Rafale vs SU-30MKI

 

[mattster]

If india is going to cancel a major defense deal due to kickbacks - then india will never again buy foreign weapons.

Corruption is part and parcel of the Indian genetic and cultural makeup.
The problem is not the vendors - its Indian culture that is absolutely corrupt.

This deal has been in the making for years now.
No country can afford to cancel such deals.
Plus India is one of the slowest moving countries when it comes to decision making.

 

[AshutoshNSingh]

yes.. we still need to get 120+ su-mki's for IAF.... and that number 250+ MKI's will be suffient to take role of attack considering the threat. But rafale will defintely give us good advanatge in many other aspects. it's very good in BVR engaging , faster n smaller compared to MKI's which will make it much more agile (it has higher TWR also) and Maneuverable too.. so it has it's own advantages compared to MKI's.. and more over we still need them as multi role aircrafts not as attck option. who knows , IAF might have good plans for these fighters in coming years.
If rafales get obselaate in future so as MKI's.. and in fifth generation fighting environment MKI's wont stand a chance agianst 5th gen fighters cause of very high RCS. so if IAF can operate MKI for another 20 yrs , they can do same with rafales also.

plus MKI is aren't swing role fighters like Rafales. They'll need to be escorted for A2A defence.

And even if we add few more squardons of MKIs in addition to Rafales it won't be enuf to fill the void created by the crashed and retired khatara machines of the force..

 

[halloweene]

I'm dubious. I'd think of delivery in 2018, F3-R standard. No clue.

 

[SajeevJino]

MKI uses larger quantities of fuel for take off compared to the smaller aircraft. For a military, finances are unlimited during war. Spares can be bought from Russia in large quantities. Heck, we may be able to pressure them into giving us their war stocks too, like we did with Israel in 1999 for LGBs. But perishable stocks are always limited. So conserving fuel takes more importance than other costs.

During 1999 war France withdrew support of Mirage 2000 .is they does same for Rafale

 

[p2prada]

plus MKI is aren't swing role fighters like Rafales. They'll need to be escorted for A2A defence.

Huh, MKIs need escort???

There is no aircraft anywhere which can escort MKIs.

MKIs can perform swing role missions.

During 1999 war France withdrew support of Mirage 2000 .is they does same for Rafale

The deal is being worked around such a scenario.

 

[p2prada]

I'm dubious. I'd think of delivery in 2018, F3-R standard. No clue.

Depends on the configuration expected in the Indian contract.

Also, the first 18 Rafales don't have to have the exact same avionics as later batches. IAF had ordered 18 Su-30Ks before MKIs came along. Even the MKIs went through 3 tranches of evolution and will see 4th with Bars 2 followed by a 5th with AESA upgrade.

 

[p2prada]

How does the RBE2 AESA compares to Zhuk AESA?

We don't have any relevant information for such a comparison.

Both the French and Russians have experience in dealing with ESAs. French RBE-2 was a PESA while the Russians have been using PESA on aircraft since the 80s.

As for specs, The MKI's AESA will be on a 900mm array with more than 1500 T/R modules while RBE-2AA will be on a 650mm array with 1000-1100 modules.

Do super sukhois have Zhuk AESA?

Seems like it. Seems IAF will be signing a contract with Phazatron for 80 Zhuk AEs. The thing is NIIP will be working on a Bars-AESA only after work on Irbis-AESA is complete for PAKFA. That may take time. I don't know if IAF is actually thinking of buying both radars eventually.

Also, why navy is not going ahead with naval version of Rafale, because if they have to wait for
Mk2, it would be at least good 7-8 years from now on. Has it got to do with the specifications of
aircraft carrier that we are going to have?

According to what I know, the Navy may release a tender for 4 squadrons of MRCA fighters. I don't know if it is 2 squadrons + 2 squadrons follow on or 4 + 2 follow on. But Decklander says if the requirement comes the navy may buy 36 Rafale once IAF's contract is done.

IAC-II specs seem to be already decided, but the carrier itself is a decade away from happening.

 

[halloweene]

First, the image is from Olybrius which i strongly suspect to be G. Steuer, the author of the article.
It is a sumup of an article in A&C i read.
DGA (french procurement agency) has awarded w "10ths" million dollars contract for preliminary researchs on MICA NG for the next three years. This is not intended to build a brand new missile yet, but technological bricks to do it so later.
It is also stated in the article that the missile would be cheaper then Meteor, and faster to operate (powder engine vs ramjet).
One should keep in mind that missiles have a limited lifetime. Therefore ADLA need to replace some. The range extend using more modern electronics is clherent with AESA radar arrival. As it seems that a doctrina evolution due to AESA would be to fire at long range from a silent Rafale, the missile being guided by another one. Dr Somnath, which jpg? The one about passive targeting?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

MKI are too expensive to maintain and operate compare to Tejas MK2..

If there is a flaw in this deal we must cancel it and pour that amount in Tejas MK2 project and Make sure we produce double the number of MMRCA we intend to procure..

Also upgrade Tejas MK1 to MK2 level as much as it can be done..

Why can't that be addressed by opening another SU-30MKI line?

A filler is a filler anyway and SU-30MKI scores better on point of quick delivery and operational( no need it already is). In fact this option will address problem of strength depletion at least 2 years earlier than any new design. No?

 

[arya]

MKI are too expensive to maintain and operate compare to Tejas MK2..

If there is a flaw in this deal we must cancel it and pour that amount in Tejas MK2 project and Make sure we produce double the number of MMRCA we intend to procure..

Also upgrade Tejas MK1 to MK2 level as much as it can be done..

sorry but we have to see the reality , we cant cancel the deal and that will be the worst step .

we have to close the deal for the nation

 

[Snuggy321]

We wont cancel the deal. Live with it.

Period.

 

[Mariner HK]

MKI are too expensive to maintain and operate compare to Tejas MK2..

If there is a flaw in this deal we must cancel it and pour that amount in Tejas MK2 project and Make sure we produce double the number of MMRCA we intend to procure..

Also upgrade Tejas MK1 to MK2 level as much as it can be done..

Kunal finally u also want to scrap the deal... As I said 20 Bil $ is lots of money.We should invest it on TEJAS Mk2 to mass produce 200 Mk2s. If it cost 60 mil, 70 mil 80 or even 100 mil $ we must have our own weapons . If we want to buy Rafale for 100mil What made us to make Cheeper tejas than Better tejas ? Poor insight of our Babus. We can import high end technology from ASEA to Spectra(like) From West to east. We must assenble atleast.Untill we have our own Technology.Its far better than Buying whole AC from other companies. ADA HAL DRDO the worst organisation than of Thrid world countries.Even Kirana shops will have good Audit. Corrupt Babus Generations of PSU babus lived on Tejas and Arjun ..It will continue

 

[NDY JATT]

Guys I have Question on my mind China NAVY Using 5th gen Fighters Our Indian Navy Using [ 4th Gen (Mig 29) and 3rd Gen (Tejas Mark II) ]
Why not we using Su 35, su 30, FGFA, RAFALE,

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@NDY JATT, Who ever told you Tejas MK-1 are 3rd generation, need his head check up..

Tejas mk-2 are nearly 5th gen fighters and MIG-29 are 4.5 gen according to generation terminology..

 

[halloweene]

Generation terminology should be banned, it's a pure nonsense (Lockheed PR invention). What matters is the capability of a plane as to be a vector of power.

 

[Drsomnath999]

Dr Somnath, which jpg? The one about passive targeting?

This one

I wish i had known french

 

[p2prada]

Generation terminology should be banned, it's a pure nonsense (Lockheed PR invention). What matters is the capability of a plane as to be a vector of power.

The difference will become even more significant.

For eg: How would you then rate a Mirage-2000-5 Mk2 against a Rafale F3+ or even F-3R?

In generation terms, it would be 4th gen for Mirage-2000 and 4.5th gen for Rafale.

In capability terms the difference would be so significant that Mirage-2000 will end up being called a trainer aircraft compared to Rafale or you will have to calculate the capability difference in X number of times.

If we set a points structure, there is not enough information available to differentiate the two even in military circles unless we hold tenders like IAF MRCA, but it won't include older and more obsolete aircraft like Mirage-2000 or F-16 B52.