Know Your 'Rafale'

[gokussj9]

@p2prada f16 blk52 is obsolete? Which blk was offered to iaf in mmrca?
Also how does blk52 compares to the m2k and mig 29 that iaf has especially in the bvr regime?

 

[halloweene]

F16 is an excellent plane. AFAIK, offer was for a block 60+. Obsolete do not mean incapable, but it doese not have evolution potential of Rafale. Comparing M2k with Block 52 is hard as thay are different class planes. F16 has an AESA radar, more agile and i guess LPI. M2K will be more agile, but will lose more energy. Etc.

 

[halloweene]

"Teh arraival of Meteor on Rafale in 2018 do not jeopardize the necessity of a second air to air weapon for the french plane. "There will always be engagement conditions tht necessitate a missile that can quickly be shot, noticeably in short range" says an expert. The ramjet of meteor needs a significant delay to reach full power, convesely to mica's powder powered engine. But also, pragmatically because meteor is an expensive missile, ordered in low amounts, that will be only used for high value targets.

Sry, real quick translation.

 

[p2prada]

F16 is an excellent plane. AFAIK, offer was for a block 60+. Obsolete do not mean incapable, but it doese not have evolution potential of Rafale. Comparing M2k with Block 52 is hard as thay are different class planes. F16 has an AESA radar, more agile and i guess LPI. M2K will be more agile, but will lose more energy. Etc.

Yeah, a more advanced version of the Block 60.

F-16 B52 does not have AESA, a MS array, but average power is higher than RDY-2. F-16V is a MLU package with AESA.

I was referring to 52 and below as obsolete. B60+ and whatever comes beyond are still relevant.

@p2prada f16 blk52 is obsolete?

Depends on the air force you are comparing to. In the US it is obsolete. In most other countries, it varies. In India, it is still an advanced aircraft until Rafale or Super MKI shows up.

Also how does blk52 compares to the m2k and mig 29 that iaf has especially in the bvr regime?

Current versions of Mig-29 and Mirage-2000 are very early models. The UPG versions will compare quite well to the B52 once ready.

 

[p2prada]

If Meteor is so expensive that a MICA is supposed to be cheap, then I really wonder what the Meteor costs.

 

[halloweene]

Agree, but there are so many things we dont know. Lifetime of missile for ex.

 

[arnabmit]

New aircraft deal crucial for IAF: Browne | idrw.org

The Indian Air Force (IAF) chief NAK Browne on Monday indicated that the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal, pertaining to acquisition of 126 aircraft at a cost of around Rs 45,000 crore, was crucial in the wake of the fact that the Mig-21 aircraft were being phased out. The phasing out of all the four variants of these aircraft will be over by 2019-20.

Browne was visiting the headquarters of the Central Air Command (CAC), Bamrauli, here for the two-day annual conference of the CAC commanders, which began today. Addressing the press, Browne said: "To replace the phased out aircraft, it must be understood that we will need new aircraft by 2019-20. If the MMRCA deal is signed this year, we will be having adequate number of aircraft by the time the old ones are all phased out."

Out of the four Mig-21 variants, the first, Type-77, would be phased out by 2014. The other three variants (Type-96, Type-75 and Bison) would be phased out between 2016 and 2019, Browne said. There were a total of 874 such aircraft and the last one rolled out in 1987, he added.

Maintaining that there was adequate support from the ministry and the government on the issue, Browne said, "Everybody agrees this is the right approach. This will have to be done," he said. The Air Force Chief further added that the IAF would become fully modernised and networked Air Force by 2022.

In the past couple of months, the MMRCA negotiations had hit roadblock with the French company Dassault, which will be providing the aircraft, seeking some changes in the terms of engagement.

Browne informed that, as part of the long-term integrated perspective plan envisaged in 2005-06, a total of 318 contracts worth over Rs 1,51,000 crore have been finalised. "That plan is now unfolding and we are getting deliveries," he said.

 

[Drsomnath999]

Video, Mica EM shot from a Rafale M


Rafale News: Video, Mica EM shot from a Rafale M

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@AiretCosmos EXCLUSIVE: we got up close and personal with a Rafale firing a Mica missile

 

[Mariner HK]

 

[Mariner HK]

 

[Mariner HK]

 

[Mariner HK]

Just look at this. If EF can bring down the price....It will be the best of Best India ever had.Which they are ready to negotiate

 

[halloweene]

Where did you get those fancy comparison from? VERY funny.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Contractual obligations will be binding once signed within this year. Also note Dassault keeps to schedules, unlike our DPSUs. Even if HAL production is delayed, the first 18 will be delivered in time.

Even considering it is signed in July. Delivery will happen in 36 months, that's July 2016.

You can't consider tendering process in this.

Wasn't last projected date was half a year ago.........Ok Ok will be signed this year, waiting!

 

[p2prada]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Wasn't last projected date was half a year ago.........Ok Ok will be signed this year, waiting!

Yeah, but what to do. All our defense projects always see delays.

According to the first deal we should have been receiving squadrons already.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Maybe the MKI cannot handle multiple sorties like Rafale or any other smaller aircraft can in a day. That's why the need for a smaller aircraft.

While MKI may take to the skies and stay in the air for 10 hours at a stretch in the air superiority role, Rafale may be used for continuous strike sorties which require repeated take offs and landings in a single day while conserving fuel and quick turnaround times, which the MKI is not suited for as of today.

Rafale has demonstrated multiple sorties capability in Libya. In high tempo operations we may possibly exceed 4 in a single day. F-35B is expected to do 4, IIRC. Some Rafales handled 6 sorties, IIRC.

MKI uses larger quantities of fuel for take off compared to the smaller aircraft. For a military, finances are unlimited during war. Spares can be bought from Russia in large quantities. Heck, we may be able to pressure them into giving us their war stocks too, like we did with Israel in 1999 for LGBs. But perishable stocks are always limited. So conserving fuel takes more importance than other costs.

With Rafale's lesser fuel costs + greater sorties, we can deliver more hurt to the enemy compared to MKI while freeing up the MKIs to focus on air dominance.

Btw, the need for a medium sized aircraft was considered at the same time as MKI was considered. Medium sized aircraft at the time even included Mirage-2000. Rafale merely provided access to next gen technology while MKI was being manufactured. Due to delays, even MKIs will have next gen avionics at the same time as Rafale. Can't help it, but the requirement for a medium aircraft still exists.

Welcome to the club of understanding so glad you finally joined it.....

Yeah i fully second that H-MRCA, M-MRCA and L-MRCA logic something which i have been repeatedly speaking since time if forgot taking account. This logic is why i have keep on stating that the time for fourth generation fighters have passed and we should instead now look for 5th generation fighter for that space.

Anyway the key point is which one of spoken two can effectively (which includes time factor) can address strength depletion effectively till a fifth generation alternative is developed?

 

[Rahul Singh]

Kunal finally u also want to scrap the deal... As I said 20 Bil $ is lots of money.We should invest it on TEJAS Mk2 to mass produce 200 Mk2s. If it cost 60 mil, 70 mil 80 or even 100 mil $ we must have our own weapons . If we want to buy Rafale for 100mil What made us to make Cheeper tejas than Better tejas ? Poor insight of our Babus. We can import high end technology from ASEA to Spectra(like) From West to east. We must assenble atleast.Untill we have our own Technology.Its far better than Buying whole AC from other companies. ADA HAL DRDO the worst organisation than of Thrid world countries.Even Kirana shops will have good Audit. Corrupt Babus Generations of PSU babus lived on Tejas and Arjun ..It will continue

I fully support this logic of cancelling Rafale deal and pouring some of that money in LCA MK-2 which by all means will be an entry level M-MRCA. Which together with SU-30 MKI can easily effectively and economically take care of strength depletion while AMCA is developed using some money saved from please- god-cancel-this-Rafale-deal.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Yeah, but what to do. All our defense projects always see delays.

According to the first deal we should have been receiving squadrons already.

And people only blame DRDO for delay while portraying LCA as mascot. This bias is beyond understanding.

 

[p2prada]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

And people only blame DRDO for delay while portraying LCA as mascot. This bias is beyond understanding.

The levels in delays are different.

IAF asks for something today and with MoD and vendor delays, it won't exceed a few years. DRDO project delays span decades.

Which is longer, 2012 to 2013 (Rafale delay) or 1999 to 2013 (LCA delay)?

You are already aware of how well the Russians have been crucified for Gorky delays, even that's 5 years.