Know Your 'Rafale'

[p2prada]

Welcome to the club of understanding so glad you finally joined it.....

I was always a part of it.

Anyway the key point is which one of spoken two can effectively (which includes time factor) can address strength depletion effectively till a fifth generation alternative is developed?

Rafale, of course. Because MKI isn't a small fighter and LCA doesn't yet exist.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

The levels in delays are different.

IAF asks for something today and with MoD and vendor delays, it won't exceed a few years. DRDO project delays span decades.

Which is longer, 2012 to 2013 (Rafale delay) or 1999 to 2013 (LCA delay)?

You are already aware of how well the Russians have been crucified for Gorky delays, even that's 5 years.

With money in hand if were to wait so long then why i go feed in restaurant, why not i home prepare food with proper planning in time. Atleast next day i will be certain of feeding what i want when i want unlike same or worse at the restaurant.

And BTW what if we had been to war in that period? At least DRDO can say we transitioned our technological capability from point A to point B, what others can say other than we reduced our preparedness level, decreased value of money and still at square one.

 

[Rahul Singh]

I was always a part of it.



Rafale, of course. Because MKI isn't a small fighter and LCA doesn't yet exist.

And Rafale is yet not signed for a deal which is a good decade old.

 

[p2prada]

And Rafale is yet not signed for a deal which is a good decade old.

Rafale as an aircraft or the deal? How is 2013 - 2007 a decade? 6 years for a tender + 3 years for delivery is as good as it gets. That's half the time it takes for developing a new aircraft.

Even if there is not a single delay in the Tejas Mk2 program, the most realistic date for delivery of first aircraft is around 2020. With delays, add a few more years here. Rafale is the most logical choice.

 

[p2prada]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

With money in hand if were to wait so long then why i go feed in restaurant, why not i home prepare food with proper planning in time. Atleast next day i will be certain of feeding what i want when i want unlike same or worse at the restaurant.

Only if it were that simple.

And BTW what if we had been to war in that period? At least DRDO can say we transitioned our technological capability from point A to point B, what others can say other than we reduced our preparedness level, decreased value of money and still at square one.

What's the point? Even when moving from A to B, it wouldn't have been part of the war.

What's the point even today?

There is too much support for DRDO when they have delivered nothing.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

That is what Men talks about..

You cant win with borrowed strength, You need your national strength to survive..

And no one will give you there best technology..

With money in hand if were to wait so long then why i go feed in restaurant, why not i home prepare food with proper planning in time. Atleast next day i will be certain of feeding what i want when i want unlike same or worse at the restaurant.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Only if it were that simple.

Nothing is simple not atleast trying to become self dependent. But once done its sure pays.

What's the point? Even when moving from A to B, it wouldn't have been part of the war. What's the point even today?

Point is meaningful progress, staying hungry while prepping for food cooking is meaningful progress, walking in market for long with empty belly despite money in hand is by no meaning a progress.

There is too much support for DRDO when they have delivered nothing.

Re invention of wheel is non glamorous, but necessary, by all means. DRDO has just moved ahead of that. But alas people with lack of depth in perception will always overlook,

 

[Rahul Singh]

Rafale as an aircraft or the deal? How is 2013 - 2007 a decade? 6 years for a tender + 3 years for delivery is as good as it gets. That's half the time it takes for developing a new aircraft.

Even if there is not a single delay in the Tejas Mk2 program, the most realistic date for delivery of first aircraft is around 2020. With delays, add a few more years here. Rafale is the most logical choice.

Rafale is just another aircraft for a deal called M-MRCA which is lumbering since the time IAF was in love with Mirage 2000; a good old decade.

Talking of delays, well, lets see when is M-MRCA is finally inked.

 

[Austin]

Rafale Solo Display

[video=youtube_share;19tscviy3uI]http://youtu.be/19tscviy3uI[/video]

 

[halloweene]

Liking halloweene posts Austin
This is from legendary "Gégé" pilot in Bex in 2006

 

[p2prada]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Nothing is simple not atleast trying to become self dependent. But once done its sure pays.

Therein lies the problem. When will it be done?

Point is meaningful progress, staying hungry while prepping for food cooking is meaningful progress, walking in market for long with empty belly despite money in hand is by no meaning a progress.

You are talking as though we are some bhikari nation that cannot fight a war unless we make something of our own.

Re invention of wheel is non glamorous, but necessary, by all means. DRDO has just moved ahead of that. But alas people with lack of depth in perception will always overlook,

DRDO has not yet moved away from RE, don't kid yourself. We have another 15-20 years to go before we make "real" indigenous stuff. LCA isn't one of them. Foreign engine, foreign radar and foreign subsystems don't make it indigenous.

 

[p2prada]

Rafale is just another aircraft for a deal called M-MRCA which is lumbering since the time IAF was in love with Mirage 2000; a good old decade.

Talking of delays, well, lets see when is M-MRCA is finally inked.

IAF did a prodigious job of evaluating and testing the aircraft in a very short time. The rest of the blame goes to the MoD and the industrial setup. It isn't IAF's fault that the deal is bogged down due to the negotiations between the Govt and Dassault.

IAF's job was between early 2007 and late 2010 when the RFP was released, aircraft were tested and two were shortlisted. So in that "short" time, IAF waited for the competitors to reply to the bid, which took a year. Evaluated the aircraft, which took one year. Tested the aircraft, which took a few months and then shortlisted the winner which took a year. That's something like a world record. And you want them to be better?

Beyond that are delays related to final bids and negotiations, that have taken 3 years to date. That isn't IAF's area. Meaning, it has nothing to do with the IAF. More to do with MoD, MoF and then the contractors and sub-contractors which is where the deal is today.

Talking of delays, IAF released RFP for MRCA in 2007, while releasing LCA's RFP in 1985. Guess what... Rafales will at best come into service by 2017 at least. That's a decade after RFP was released. LCA's original plan expected delivery in 1996, that's 11 years after RFP was released. See the difference in delays. A 10 year cycle from the time of release of RFP and service date is "excellent."

This is something ADA has not even planned. Their current plan is 16 years from date of RFP to IOC of a new aircraft. Comparatively even HAL is way better. With FGFA PDC signed in 2010 to delivery of final modified version in 2022, that's 12 years counting the two year delay in the cockpit design, for what should have been 9 years.

 

[ersakthivel]

Foreign engine, foreign radar and foreign subsystems don't make it indigenous.

can we say the same bout grippen NG, J-20 and , J-31?

when the russians are ready to give the engine to J-10, J-20, J-31 and various other unauthorised Sukhoi clones to China,


Why should Tejas getting an american engine in perfectly legal way till a local engine is readied be termed not indigenous?

SO grippen NG doesnot belong to SAAB and Abrams tank does not belong to US as it carries German gun,

Even the 60 odd SU-30 flankers ,about to be sold to third world countries and russian airforce,

will not be russian, considering Sukhoi has signed a pact with HAL for mission computers and other avionics with HAL!!!!,

because the customers insisted on them!!!

The 30 odd sukhoi -35 fighters that china is about to import from Russia is going to be the last of their fighter purchase abroad.
But we indians are salivating at the prospect of importing 100s of foreign fighters in god knows whatever specs , while insisting on tejas to jump all the hurdles in one go!!!

But the chinese operationalized their fighters with defects , improved them step by step and are close to self sufficiency.Still they are importing thousands of engines from Russia. But the drain on the foreign resources is very less considering the multi billion dollars we are slavishly going to enter.

if we continue on this vain we will truly end up a bikhari nation and beaten by the chinese economically.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/searc...:00+05:30&max-results=7&start=7&by-date=false

An aerospace honcho from Russia whom I asked why Indian defence production was doing so badly lobbed a question back at me. Why, he asked, was Russia such a successful builder of sophisticated fighters and helicopters when that country was still unable to build a passable passenger car? The answer, he said without waiting for a reply, was Moscow's strategic direction. Through famine, hardship and war, Russia's leadership systematically brought together the myriad elements of an aerospace industry: educational institutions that churned out aeronautical designers; design bureaus where legends such as Sukhoi, Mikoyan, Beriev, Ilyushin and Tupolev developed generations of aircraft; science laboratories that produced the special materials that go into aircraft and aero-engines; an industrial base that produced high-quality components like pipes, hoses, rivets, pumps and actuators; technological institutes that churned out trained and productive shop floor workers. With all this in place, Moscow decreed that the Russian military would use only Russian aircraft."¨"¨

While India must upgrade its training, technological manpower, R&D base and production ecosystem, the biggest obstacle to indigenisation remains the military's argument --- supinely swallowed by a political leadership that is still haunted by memories of 1962 --- that Indian soldiers must be equipped with the world's best when they go into harm's way. Not one defence minister, or any national leader, has had the political courage to argue that Indian strategic interest demands that the military equips itself primarily with Indian weaponry, accepting short-term weakness to build long-term capability. The army and Indian Air Force (IAF) do not see that overseas procurement does not solve even the short-term problem, given how frequently it is disrupted by allegations of corruption.

The Indian Navy provides the army and the IAF with daily reminders of the benefits of indigenisation. With the same R&D base, the same feeble defence industry and the same defence ministry the navy has canalised its meagre allocation of 18 per cent of the defence budget into genuine indigenisation. Today, 43 warships are being built in Indian yards, with just two being built abroad. Initial warships were significantly below global standards. But the navy accepted those, building up industry and creating the capability to deliver warships that are currently up to regional, if not global, standards.

Until the sukhoi arrived the russian fighters were no match for their counterparts. But it took decades of churning out decent fighters and crap tanks like T-72 for russia to reach where it is now.

A case in point is the IGMDP of DRDo , since no one was willing to give the tech, it was successfully developed in house.But ARJUN and TEJAS are crap , because someone is ready to give a competing product!!!

But even during the development phase the DRDO is asked to improve the specs of products that have already reached
prototype stage causing delays.it is an ignorant behavior ignoring the age old saying "Don't let best become the enemy of the good"

These huge forex sapping imports weaken the economy drives out local design talent to foreign countries, and stunts the growth of the local arms production, turning it forever into screw driver wielders of the fake TOT era.

 

[wild goose]

India's New Rules Could Mean More Overseas Tie-ups


Global Buys Represent 'Last Resort' Under New Rules

The amendments do not apply to ongoing procurement programs, however, so the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft program, in which France's Dassault Aviation has been chosen as the preferred vendor for its Rafale fighter, is unaffected.

India imports nearly 70 percent of its weapons from overseas; the domestic sector, especially the private sector, has a meager contribution of less than US $500 million a year.

India's New Rules Could Mean More Overseas Tie-ups | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[Rahul Singh]

IAF did a prodigious job of evaluating and testing the aircraft in a very short time. The rest of the blame goes to the MoD and the industrial setup. It isn't IAF's fault that the deal is bogged down due to the negotiations between the Govt and Dassault.

IAF's job was between early 2007 and late 2010 when the RFP was released, aircraft were tested and two were shortlisted. So in that "short" time, IAF waited for the competitors to reply to the bid, which took a year. Evaluated the aircraft, which took one year. Tested the aircraft, which took a few months and then shortlisted the winner which took a year. That's something like a world record. And you want them to be better?

Beyond that are delays related to final bids and negotiations, that have taken 3 years to date. That isn't IAF's area. Meaning, it has nothing to do with the IAF. More to do with MoD, MoF and then the contractors and sub-contractors which is where the deal is today.

Talking of delays, IAF released RFP for MRCA in 2007, while releasing LCA's RFP in 1985. Guess what... Rafales will at best come into service by 2017 at least. That's a decade after RFP was released. LCA's original plan expected delivery in 1996, that's 11 years after RFP was released. See the difference in delays. A 10 year cycle from the time of release of RFP and service date is "excellent."

This is something ADA has not even planned. Their current plan is 16 years from date of RFP to IOC of a new aircraft. Comparatively even HAL is way better. With FGFA PDC signed in 2010 to delivery of final modified version in 2022, that's 12 years counting the two year delay in the cockpit design, for what should have been 9 years.

And you think the problems that you discussed with the system does not exists when air craft development comes into play?

Heck despite herculean task of creating an aerospace R&D and industrial setup capable of developing a multirole fighter from scratch in parallel to actual development that besides the fact that fund was only released by 1993, they came up with fighter which is technologically contemporary to most and as a system couple of months away from IOC-2.

Wonder what if they were lucky enough to have all prerequisite in place and had to only concentrate on LCA development? 100 LCAs? Well of course!

Comparing this to M-MRCA, well ever since the purchase of those 10 extra Mirages, there was always funds........that's atleast a decade if not more.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Therein lies the problem. When will it be done?

Is that a full stop or we are talking about or comma which DRDO has crossed many places many times.

You are talking as though we are some bhikari nation that cannot fight a war unless we make something of our own.

Actually its like we can win any war with bhikhari nation with or without home equipment but can't stand a chance against who has developed home industry.......... Home supply is literally unrestricted supply.

BTW war won't wait till you start from RFI and end at contract signing, no matter how rich you are.

DRDO has not yet moved away from RE, don't kid yourself. We have another 15-20 years to go before we make "real" indigenous stuff. LCA isn't one of them. Foreign engine, foreign radar and foreign subsystems don't make it indigenous.

Don't kid yourself. Its not about new creation but about what is necessary. You blame DRDO for delays when pure imports takes so long. This is the system which both DRDO and rest shares.

 

[p2prada]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Is that a full stop or we are talking about or comma which DRDO has crossed many places many times.

Huh?

DRDO's track record is not proven. Take this very forum for example. All those who have experience with DRDO or HAL or any other PSU hate these enterprises. All those who support DPSUs are actually people who have never even seen the gate of these PSUs. Why is that so?

I am talking about people on this forum.

Actually its like we can win any war with bhikhari nation with or without home equipment but can't stand a chance against who has developed home industry.......... Home supply is literally unrestricted supply.

You are underestimating our resources and overestimating the enemy.

A mil-industrial complex only allows for wars over very long periods of time, basically attrition warfare over years. Neither of our enemies is capable of running ops beyond a month, I am willing to wager less than 3 weeks even for China and less than 2 weeks or even a week for Pak.

Weapons systems have become far too accurate and deadly for war to prolong. Meaning the casualty rates and destruction will be so drastic in the first week alone that even with a home industry, it won't keep up with the requirement for a WW2 style manufacturing speed. We may lose 3 or 4 squadrons of aircraft in a week, with a WW2 style industry with low tech items we could build a thousand aircraft a year, now we can't even manage 50 a year. Even China.

You are assuming the wrong aspects while discussing modern warfare.

BTW war won't wait till you start from RFI and end at contract signing, no matter how rich you are.

That's why we should continue importing for another 20 years before DRDO is actually able to deliver. Also note that I am being optimistic about the 20 years. A more realistic date would be 30 years minimum.

Don't kid yourself. Its not about new creation but about what is necessary. You blame DRDO for delays when pure imports takes so long. This is the system which both DRDO and rest shares.

I already gave you dates. MRCA is delayed by a year or two. LCA is delayed by 17 years if I am being unfair to ADA or 14 years while being fair. Even with schedule changes, LCA is still delayed by 7 years.

The comparison does not even compute. More importantly, there is a huge difference in the quality of aircraft being inducted if we compare LCA with Rafale.

 

[sob]

The question for the user in this case the IAF is a very basic one. On one hand there is an aircraft which is in service , has seen action in Afghanistan ,Libya and Mali and has been selected by the IAF in competition with the other top line aircrafts. On the other hand there is an aircraft which on paper is very good and after decades of development is still some years away from entering serial production.

One very obvious question that has been going on in my mind is the role of HAL. What is the planning of HAL to start the series production. The obvious points are

1.Have they allocated resources for the production line?

2. Have orders been placed for the machinery and other components?

3. What is the time line being followed by HAL for getting the production line in place?

4. Have the different vendors been developed for the LCA and do they have the capability and capacity to match the series production dates and quantity?

 

[ersakthivel]

From the first metal cut RAFALE entered service in 16 years is what MSD WOOLEN says in his article, From the first metal cut in 1993, the tejas took 18 years to attiain IOC and enter series production, Where is the 17 year old delay?Are people flying in a time machine?

Tejas - Feature - The Light Combat Aircraft Story by Air Marshal MSD Wollen (Retd)

After examining the PD documents, the IAF felt that the risks were too high (likely shortfalls in performance, inordinate delay, Cost over-run, price escalations) to proceed further. A Review Committee was formed in May 1989. Experts from outside the aviation industry were included. The general view was that infrastructure, facilities and technology had advanced in most areas to undertake the project. As a precaution, Full Scale Engineering Development would proceed in two phases.

Phase 1: design, construction and flight test of two Technology Demonstrator aircraft (TDI & 2); construction of a Structural Test Specimen; construction of two Prototype Vehicles (PVI &2); creation of infrastructure and test facilities.

Phase 2: construction of three more PV '5, the last PV5, being a trainer; construction of a Fatigue Test Specimen; creation of facilities at various work centres. Cost of Phase I - Rs.2188 crores, of Phase II - Rs. 2,340 crores. Phase I commenced in 1990. However, due to a financial crunch, sanction was accorded in April 1993 and was marked by an upsurge in work.

The year to note 1993.

In the late eighties India's aircraft Industry was not as advanced as Sweden's; and yet India follows a more arduous design/development route for its LCA, compared to Sweden for its JAS-39 Gripen. The Gripen embodied a far higher percentage of foreign, off-the-shelf technology, including its RM-12 engine (improved GE F404). France (Dassault Aviation) built and exhaustively flew a demonstrator aircraft (Rafale-A) before embarking on construction of Rafale prototypes.

Over 2,000 flights were completed by September 1994 when first Flight of a production Rafale was still 20 months away. At that point of time, Dassault Aviation had built or flown 93 prototypes, of which at least fifteen went into production after sixteen years elapsed from 'first-metal-cut' of the Rafale demonstrator to entry into service.

Current plans for the LCA is ten years. And what of India's past record? Just a hand-ful of trainer aircraft designed and productionised. The story is similar for the Typhoon (earlier Eurofighter 2000). It was seventeen years from 'first-metal-cut' (EAP) to squadron entry in 2000.

One more timeframe needs to be noted. It took Gripen six and a half years from first flight (prototype) to entry into squadron. For the LCA, four and a half years is the target! The quantum of test flying hours required to attain Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) is about 2000 hours; an impossible task in four and a half years. Concurrent production will shorten service entry time, but this will not enable the present target to be reached.

Having an extra engine alone is not a justification for the 16 and 17 years gestation period of the RAFALE and TYPHOON.

Both the above fighters took their time despite being from established production houses with huge technological and financial base 50 times bigger than HAL and ADA put together.

I have posted this article atleast 15 times in this forum, And people still say LCA is 17 years in DELAYED project!!!!!!!!!!!!

Incredible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ice berg]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

A mil-industrial complex only allows for wars over very long periods of time, basically attrition warfare over years. Neither of our enemies is capable of running ops beyond a month, I am willing to wager less than 3 weeks even for China and less than 2 weeks or even a week for Pak.

Sure, what you bet?:cool2: I cant speak for Pakistan. But the last Sino-Vietnam clash went from 79-89 in a span of 10 years. And that was after the cultural revolution. The chinese arms industry are quite abit robust now

Weapons systems have become far too accurate and deadly for war to prolong. Meaning the casualty rates and destruction will be so drastic in the first week alone that even with a home industry, it won't keep up with the requirement for a WW2 style manufacturing speed.

Nobody starts to produce what you needed after the war begin. You prepare for it by stocking enough supplies BEFORE the war.

We may lose 3 or 4 squadrons of aircraft in a week, with a WW2 style industry with low tech items we could build a thousand aircraft a year, now we can't even manage 50 a year. Even China.

Huh? They are adding 100 jets a year. 50 J-10As last year alone, not to mention J-11Bs, JH7s etc.

You are assuming the wrong aspects while discussing modern warfare.



That's why we should continue importing for another 20 years before DRDO is actually able to deliver. Also note that I am being optimistic about the 20 years. A more realistic date would be 30 years minimum.



I already gave you dates. MRCA is delayed by a year or two. LCA is delayed by 17 years if I am being unfair to ADA or 14 years while being fair. Even with schedule changes, LCA is still delayed by 7 years.

The comparison does not even compute. More importantly, there is a huge difference in the quality of aircraft being inducted if we compare LCA with Rafale.

Otherwise I agree with your points. You need to learn to crawl before you learn to walk.