Know Your 'Rafale'

GromHellscream

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Be realistic. PLAAF will have to come into our airspace if they want any meaningful role against us. Even PAF will have to penetrate our airspace.



This was already done for both PAF and IAF in the past. The Russians provided AWACS from their services in the 1971 war as well. Due to the classified nature of the previous wars, we still do not know the extent of Soviet cooperation in the past during wars. PAF was openly provided with jets from Middle Eastern countries.



Selling weapons to India won't alienate China.

Also my point was we don't have to depend solely on our mil-industrial complex for weapons supplies, unlike China.



You are talking with peace time scenario in mind. Don't forget cash won't be a problem during war. We are not talking about changing platforms, that is impossible. We are talking about expanding existing capability. We have C-130Js. Assume one or two are destroyed, the US may send some from their stocks to replenish our fleet. MKIs are destroyed, we may be able to persuade the Russians to release Su-30SMs and so on. More than platforms, we will have multiple bases of supply for weapons like LGBs and missiles.



I am not talking about proven capability, I am talking about reliability. These are entirely different. What is the guarantee your aircraft can survive the operations tempo required during war time? What if your manufacturers claims something like 3 sorties a day, but your maintenance crew only manage 1 or maybe 2 a day, if lucky. Reliability is different from proven capability.
And you thought those supports from other countries in war time are free?

Don't fool yourself, if india swallows too much of this "free" support, your country will lies in a troubled situation worse than ever, no matter who wins the war.
 

p2prada

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

And you thought those supports from other countries in war time are free?

Don't fool yourself, if india swallows too much of this "free" support, your country will lies in a troubled situation worse than ever, no matter who wins the war.
You are assuming we can't afford it?
 

Rahul Singh

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Huh?

DRDO's track record is not proven. Take this very forum for example. All those who have experience with DRDO or HAL or any other PSU hate these enterprises. All those who support DPSUs are actually people who have never even seen the gate of these PSUs. Why is that so?

I am talking about people on this forum.
Hope you didn't included me into that list otherwise you would be greatest idiot i have known.


You are underestimating our resources and overestimating the enemy.
If i cut old and obsoletes then PLAAF has newer J-10s apart from equally capable flankers to which IAF had just flankers and we are out numbered there which i believe is not overestimation.

A mil-industrial complex only allows for wars over very long periods of time, basically attrition warfare over years. Neither of our enemies is capable of running ops beyond a month, I am willing to wager less than 3 weeks even for China and less than 2 weeks or even a week for Pak.

Weapons systems have become far too accurate and deadly for war to prolong. Meaning the casualty rates and destruction will be so drastic in the first week alone that even with a home industry, it won't keep up with the requirement for a WW2 style manufacturing speed. We may lose 3 or 4 squadrons of aircraft in a week, with a WW2 style industry with low tech items we could build a thousand aircraft a year, now we can't even manage 50 a year. Even China.

You are assuming the wrong aspects while discussing modern warfare.
There is something like percentage availability per total number.

When you depend yourself on import, you take longer harder route to maintainability followed by availability. In contrast if you take home route, you take much shorter route to maintainability and hence greater availability.

So no, the idea of supporting home mil industry for strength is not merely about war to attrition in its crude form but yes one in very delicate yet very natural form.

You know you will be half destroyed at the dusk of war that is why you need home mil industry to recuperate fast so that you can remain strong. the following day.



That's why we should continue importing for another 20 years before DRDO is actually able to deliver. Also note that I am being optimistic about the 20 years. A more realistic date would be 30 years minimum.
Only if import route is any meaningfully faster!

That with the fact that all of first generation DRDO products have faced greater delays because there were no supporting industries, which is almost gone case after completion of first generation be it MBT or Combat Planes or Missile or anything.

The things are going to get faster by next step, as evident it already. Same can't be said about import route for the evident reasons. No?



I already gave you dates. MRCA is delayed by a year or two. LCA is delayed by 17 years if I am being unfair to ADA or 14 years while being fair. Even with schedule changes, LCA is still delayed by 7 years.
Its difference between perception and of course bias. In my wisdom i would consider the date for M-MRCA to be the date when MOD cleared the idea.

I am quire fare when i take date which when idea meet clearance. And this goes almost a decade ago.

One can even say LCA did not even started before 2006* because IAF did not joined the project before that date.


The comparison does not even compute. More importantly, there is a huge difference in the quality of aircraft being inducted if we compare LCA with Rafale.
Indeed! LCA is like fulfilling a need for Potato Chips with start from learning Potato farming whereas M-MRCA is like tucking shirt and hitting a local grocery store for a Lays.

Here i will naturally blame the first case less for delays at some point(s) but more the one who despite such hunger, despite with debit card and sufficient cash, despite standing at store with more than sufficient storage of Chips packets is still standing hungry with ever detoriating health.

Don't comment on quality yet.
 

p2prada

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Hope you didn't included me into that list otherwise you would be greatest idiot i have known.
You talk as though you have worked in a DPSU before.

If i cut old and obsoletes then PLAAF has newer J-10s apart from equally capable flankers to which IAF had just flankers and we are out numbered there which i believe is not overestimation.
I have posted number of quality aircraft on both sides many times.

They have 400 Flankers out of which 200 are very old. They have ~250 J-10s. They have a small fleet for their real requirement. While we have two fronts, they need the bulk of their forces on the West coast and still have some capability against Russia even when they are fighting a war against India.

There is something like percentage availability per total number.

When you depend yourself on import, you take longer harder route to maintainability followed by availability. In contrast if you take home route, you take much shorter route to maintainability and hence greater availability.
Far from the truth.

We had 150000 tank shells from DRDO and they were all destroyed because of poor quality. Instead we have to rely on imports.

MKI spares are made in India. And we can make how much ever we want.

So no, the idea of supporting home mil industry for strength is not merely about war to attrition in its crude form but yes one in very delicate yet very natural form.

You know you will be half destroyed at the dusk of war that is why you need home mil industry to recuperate fast so that you can remain strong. the following day.
Not necessary. Take the example of MKI or even Rafale. We make 16 here for both and we can still import an equal or greater number in case of losses. There are two or three assembly lines working in parallel with imports.

Only if import route is any meaningfully faster!
It is proven to be faster, anyday.

That with the fact that all of first generation DRDO products have faced greater delays because there were no supporting industries, which is almost gone case after completion of first generation be it MBT or Combat Planes or Missile or anything.
Incorrect. Supporting industries are blossoming even with imports. It is on the rise, not otherwise.

The things are going to get faster by next step, as evident it already. Same can't be said about import route for the evident reasons. No?
It is only evident if mass production happens.

Its difference between perception and of course bias. In my wisdom i would consider the date for M-MRCA to be the date when MOD cleared the idea.
If that's the case then let's take the LCA date to be from 1983 since that's when MoD cleared the project. Which is faster 1983-2013 (2015 actually) or 2001 to 2015? So obvious.

Indeed! LCA is like fulfilling a need for Potato Chips with start from learning Potato farming whereas M-MRCA is like tucking shirt and hitting a local grocery store for a Lays.
:rolleyes:

Don't comment on quality yet.
The present LCA Mk1 is less capable compared to Mirage-2000. LCA Mk2 should bring parity with M-2000. Rafale is said to be 3x times more capable than M-2000. The capability boost is far too big in comparison. Rafale is anyday a better quality jet compared to the paper plane Mk2.
 

Rahul Singh

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

You talk as though you have worked in a DPSU before.
And why i disclose who is what to you?



I have posted number of quality aircraft on both sides many times.

They have 400 Flankers out of which 200 are very old. They have ~250 J-10s. They have a small fleet for their real requirement. While we have two fronts, they need the bulk of their forces on the West coast and still have some capability against Russia even when they are fighting a war against India.
They have home industry which can upgrade old ones with ease besides, they don't have to cover their fronts like we have to.

Numerically and by operational readiness they are far superior.


Far from the truth.

We had 150000 tank shells from DRDO and they were all destroyed because of poor quality. Instead we have to rely on imports.
OFB not DRDO besides when you do things for first time you make mistakes but this does not stops you because next time things gets better and better. And that's what's happening, there is no more A-2 failing now, its days of A-V and SLBMs.

Besides repeated failure of OSA-AK speaks a volume for the matter.

MKI spares are made in India. And we can make how much ever we want.
And since when we started manufacturing 100% of MKI from raw materials including whole engine right from forging? Alas if we had been so capable, thanks to net percent ToT on engine metals then GTRE would not have to look around for DP.


Not necessary. Take the example of MKI or even Rafale. We make 16 here for both and we can still import an equal or greater number in case of losses. There are two or three assembly lines working in parallel with imports.
And what will be time to contract? Do in reality something like 100% ToT takes place? What if that's not the case?

Besides we can set up as many lines as much we want to for the indigenous designs but can ask foreign supplier only so much.


It is proven to be faster, anyday.
Only when compared to development and deployment cycle of first generation DRDO designs. Come the second generation and we talk.

BTW M-MRCA and INS Vikramaditya are very good examples of how meaningfully faster this import route is even when compared to first generation of home grown product.


Incorrect. Supporting industries are blossoming even with imports. It is on the rise, not otherwise.
It was not about blossoming of supporting industry but lack of them contribution towards delay in first generation DRDO products.

Since you raised it anyway. Why makes you think a nut bolt screw driver job is better than serious and hard core defense R&D?



It is only evident if mass production happens.
Which is already in process of happening.We are late starters and we have just completed re-inventing the wheel. Rest is just rolling the more the effort more the acceleration would be.



If that's the case then let's take the LCA date to be from 1983 since that's when MoD cleared the project. Which is faster 1983-2013 (2015 actually) or 2001 to 2015? So obvious.:rolleyes:
Repeating! Its far more easier and far less time consuming to buy a pack of Lays for meeting appetite for potato chips than the route which starts from learning potato farming.

Buying is less time consuming yet you are taking almost half the time. Then question arises if it really easier route? eg, M-MRCA



The present LCA Mk1 is less capable compared to Mirage-2000. LCA Mk2 should bring parity with M-2000. Rafale is said to be 3x times more capable than M-2000. The capability boost is far too big in comparison. Rafale is anyday a better quality jet compared to the paper plane Mk2.
The thing is, Rafale in not here yet and we don't know till how long.
 

p2prada

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

And why i disclose who is what to you?
Which means you didn't.

They have home industry which can upgrade old ones with ease besides, they don't have to cover their fronts like we have to.
There is a limit to upgrading an old airframe. That's the reason why they are making the J-11B. They know they can't upgrade the J-11A to a MKI and they also know they cannot upgrade J-11B to a Su-35 level aircraft.

Numerically and by operational readiness they are far superior.
Fiction. That's not how it works. Anyway, our MKI industry is far more advanced than their Flanker industry.

OFB not DRDO besides when you do things for first time you make mistakes but this does not stops you because next time things gets better and better.
Wrong. OFB manufactured the shells. The problem came from DRDO which designed the shells. It was a design issue.

Besides repeated failure of OSA-AK speaks a volume for the matter.
It is past its shelf life. What do you expect? The last system was ordered in 1993. It is already 20 years old.

And since when we started manufacturing 100% of MKI from raw materials including whole engine right from forging? Alas if we had been so capable, thanks to net percent ToT on engine metals then GTRE would not have to look around for DP.
GTRE has nothing to do with HAL. Any ToT we received from MKI program is for the MKI, not for LCA.

Yes, we even make the single crystal blades in India through the MKI program.

And what will be time to contract? Do in reality something like 100% ToT takes place? What if that's not the case?
IAF doesn't really care about full ToT. They want relevant ToT. There is a difference. ToT does not trickle back into the domestic programs. We don't or won't plagiarize.

Besides we can set up as many lines as much we want to for the indigenous designs but can ask foreign supplier only so much.
No, there is a limit to setting up multiple production lines in the same place. We need to find real estate, need more power, feed the employees etc. We are not yet capable of building WW2 type industrial setups.


Only when compared to development and deployment cycle of first generation DRDO designs. Come the second generation and we talk.
Second generation doesn't exist as of today. There is a LCA Mk2. It is still a paper plane. By the time LCA Mk2 is made, Dassault would be flight testing a Rafale F4 while the Russians would be inducting PAKFA. There is no comparison.

BTW M-MRCA and INS Vikramaditya are very good examples of how meaningfully faster this import route is even when compared to first generation of home grown product.
M-MRCA and Gorky are good examples. Where is LCA Mk2 and Vikrant. Which will come first, Rafale and Gorky or LCA Mk2 and Vikrant?


It was not about blossoming of supporting industry but lack of them contribution towards delay in first generation DRDO products.
The orders are good enough for blossoming the support industry. 40 Mk1 orders and 118+124 Arjun orders are quite a lot.

Since you raised it anyway. Why makes you think a nut bolt screw driver job is better than serious and hard core defense R&D?
The serious hardcore defense R&D has not delivered, that's the difference.

Which is already in process of happening.We are late starters and we have just completed re-inventing the wheel. Rest is just rolling the more the effort more the acceleration would be.
The process has been happening for the last 30 years and they still don't know when real deliveries will actually happen.

Repeating! Its far more easier and far less time consuming to buy a pack of Lays for meeting appetite for potato chips than the route which starts from learning potato farming.
I support indigenization, but not at the expense of throwing the brain in the dustbin when making the right choice.

Buying is less time consuming yet you are taking almost half the time. Then question arises if it really easier route? eg, M-MRCA
Don't be mistaken. Buying is not half the time. Once the deal is signed, Rafale will show up in 3 years. LCA Mk2 will take at least another 3 years after Rafale shows up. To top it off, Rafale will be a much more capable fighter.

The thing is, Rafale in not here yet and we don't know till how long.
Nevertheless, the fact is Rafale exists. An indigenous equivalent doesn't. A nationalistic idiot, a politician or a civilian will support the indigenous option primarily due to uninformed opinion. But the military general favors what exists, not what will be few years later. And he does not have an uninformed opinion. That's the reason things are the way they are even today. DRDO has not yet delivered what was promised decades ago. Military planners don't take such chances.
 
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AVERAGE INDIAN

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IAF funds crunch to hit MMRCA deal

The financial crunch that has led to one of the lowest hikes in defence expenditure in decades is set to hit modernisation hard with new statistics revealing that the Defence Ministry has set aside only a few million dollars for new purchases, putting the future of critical purchases like fighter aircraft in question.
A detailed breakup of the new budget that has recently been made available has revealed that the Air Force, which is hoping to sign several new projects this year including the Medium Multi Role Aircraft (MMRCA), has been allotted only $372 million for new schemes.

While the total modernisation budget for the IAF is $6.8 billion, the majority of it is under the committed liabilities head for projects that have been signed in the past. This includes projects like the C 17 transport aircraft, modernisation of the Mirage 2000 and MiG 29 fleet and deliveries of the Su 30 MKI fighters.

Under the head of 'new schemes', the IAF has been allotted a mere $372 million that experts say will not be adequate to cover the purchases planned this year. The MMRCA in particular, which will cost upwards of $12 billion, has not been budgeted for. As an industry norm, a payment of 5-10 per cent of the contract value has to be made at the time of signing. This itself will amount to $500 million, going by very conservative figures.

Sources conceded that the MMRCA has not been budgeted into this year's capital allotment to the IAF. However, they asserted that if the contract does reach a conclusive stage, money will be made available through other means to cater for the signing fees. Air Force Chief N A K Browne in particular has been expressing confidence that the deal would be signed in the coming months.

However, as things stand, the budgeted allocation for new projects will only cater for other projects that are also in the final stages. This includes the Chinook transport choppers, Apache attack helicopters, radar and other equipment.

Nonetheless, the IAF has got a lion's share of the capital budget for new schemes. The total budget for new projects this year stands at only $550 million, with the Navy getting a minimum amount of $82 million.

The Army will also have a tough time in managing new purchases with its $91 million budget that will have to cater for projects like the new M 777 howitzers from the US as well as the 197 light helicopter contract.

As reported earlier, India will spend its lowest on defence expenditure in over three decades after the government proposed a modest hike in the annual budget that amounts to just over five per cent over last year.

- See more at: IAF funds crunch to hit MMRCA deal - Indian Express
 

AVERAGE INDIAN

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas Mark-II

Impossible to set time frame for MMRCA deal: Antony

Union Defence Minister A K Antony on Monday said it was not possible to set a time frame for signing the much-awaited deal for the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) with French company Dassault Aviation.

The contract, said to be worth nearly Rs 1lakh crore, is still at the negotiation stage, a year-and-a-half after the French firm emerged as the lowest bidder in the tender which was floated in August 2007.

"Given the complexity of the proposal, no definite time frame can be fixed at this stage (for signing the deal)," Antony said in a written reply in Parliament.

"The proposal for procurement of the 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft is currently at the stage of commercial discussions with the L1 vendor, Dassault Aviation and hence the terms and conditions for purchase including the delivery schedule are yet to be finalised," he said.

However, the Defence Minister pointed out that the Request for Proposal–defence parlance for a commercial tender – stipulated that the delivery of the 18 flyaway aircraft should take place between the third and fourth years after the signing of the contract. The manufacturing of the remaining 108 fighters under licence from Dassault will take place here from the 4th to the 11th year after the signing of the contract.

Dassault has offered its Rafale combat planes to India under the Request for Proposal and it had beaten the European consortium EADS Cassidian, which had offered its Eurofighter Typhoon plane, in the last stage of the tendering process in January 2012. The two firms had been down-selected by the Indian Air Force after intense flight and weapons trials in which the US aircraft – Lockheed Martin's F-16 and Boeing's F/A-18 – Russian United Aircraft Corporation's MiG-35 and Swedish Saab's Gripen were eliminated from the competition in April 2011.

Meanwhule, the Army is planning to procure 100 self-propelled artillery howitzers and three Indian vendors, including two private companies, have been selected for trial of their equipment, A K Antony told the Lok Sabha on Monday.

In a written reply to the lower house of Parliament, the Defence Ministry also said the recent amendment to Defence Procurement Procedure-2011 aims at giving higher preference to indigenous capacity in the defence sector.

Impossible to set time frame for MMRCA deal: Antony - The New Indian Express
 

Uriel Correa

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The smooth upper wing body blending is shown in this photograph , typical of lifting body designs of later generation fighters from sukhoi, rafale,eurofighter typhoon, F-22,PAKFA,J-20.

This high wing body blending is the hall mark of even the fifth gen fighters, reducing the corner reflections from the awacs radars searching from above resulting in lower RCS with missiles and extenal sores hidden under the wing. (as there are no corners formed when the flat wings get attached to cigar like fuselage in old fighters designs like mig-21, jf-17,j-10,grippen,and mirages)

Mote this high wing body blending feature is absent in J-10,jf-17, so these two designs are not as contemproary as tejas.

That's why I get livid and blow out, when people compare second generation all aluminum birds like vintage upgraded mig-21 bisons(consistently saying they are 4th gen) and jags, resulting in vituperative rebuttals.
 

Vishwarupa

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IAF funds crunch to hit MMRCA deal

The financial crunch that has led to one of the lowest hikes in defence expenditure in decades is set to hit modernisation hard with new statistics revealing that the Defence Ministry has set aside only a few million dollars for new purchases, putting the future of critical purchases like fighter aircraft in question.
A detailed breakup of the new budget that has recently been made available has revealed that the Air Force, which is hoping to sign several new projects this year including the Medium Multi Role Aircraft (MMRCA), has been allotted only $372 million for new schemes.

While the total modernisation budget for the IAF is $6.8 billion, the majority of it is under the committed liabilities head for projects that have been signed in the past. This includes projects like the C 17 transport aircraft, modernisation of the Mirage 2000 and MiG 29 fleet and deliveries of the Su 30 MKI fighters.

Under the head of 'new schemes', the IAF has been allotted a mere $372 million that experts say will not be adequate to cover the purchases planned this year. The MMRCA in particular, which will cost upwards of $12 billion, has not been budgeted for. As an industry norm, a payment of 5-10 per cent of the contract value has to be made at the time of signing. This itself will amount to $500 million, going by very conservative figures.

Sources conceded that the MMRCA has not been budgeted into this year's capital allotment to the IAF. However, they asserted that if the contract does reach a conclusive stage, money will be made available through other means to cater for the signing fees. Air Force Chief N A K Browne in particular has been expressing confidence that the deal would be signed in the coming months.

However, as things stand, the budgeted allocation for new projects will only cater for other projects that are also in the final stages. This includes the Chinook transport choppers, Apache attack helicopters, radar and other equipment.

Nonetheless, the IAF has got a lion's share of the capital budget for new schemes. The total budget for new projects this year stands at only $550 million, with the Navy getting a minimum amount of $82 million.

The Army will also have a tough time in managing new purchases with its $91 million budget that will have to cater for projects like the new M 777 howitzers from the US as well as the 197 light helicopter contract.

As reported earlier, India will spend its lowest on defence expenditure in over three decades after the government proposed a modest hike in the annual budget that amounts to just over five per cent over last year.

- See more at: IAF funds crunch to hit MMRCA deal - Indian Express
We have money to pass FOOD SECURITY BILL but do not have monies for Defense. It election time & sonia led UPA wants to earn some brownie points by passing FSB. What a crap!!!

Let china take over ladakh who cares.
 

arya

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We have money to pass FOOD SECURITY BILL but do not have monies for Defense. It election time & sonia led UPA wants to earn some brownie points by passing FSB. What a crap!!!

Let china take over ladakh who cares.

some day they will rule the delhi .
 

AVERAGE INDIAN

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India's Medium Multi-Role: Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) Contract: Uncertainty Continues

Introduction
The Indian Air Force's (IAF's) MMRCA project continues to creep towards actualisation. The Issue Brief chronicles the need and requirement of MMRC, examines the negotiation process and searches for some plausible alternatives. With some regular media reports highlighting the stumbling blocks, the Issue Brief tries to put things into a perspective.

Background
IAF had 39.5 fighter squadrons in the early 1990s. The bulk of these comprised variants of the MiG-21, a design dating back to the late 1940s and early 1950s. More modern aircraft included a few squadrons of MiG-23MFs, a dedicated air-to-air fighter, a few squadrons of MiG-23BNs, dedicated air-to-ground attack aircraft, a few squadrons of MiG-27s, upgraded more capable variants of the earlier MiG-23BN, three squadrons of MiG-29s, two squadrons of Mirage-2000H and six squadrons of Jaguars.1 In the late 1990s a contract was signed with Russia for developing the Su-30MKI for IAF.2 The Su-30MKI would marry the Soviet era Su-27UBK, the two seat trainer of the Soviet era Su-27 fighter, airframe with a rear cockpit modified and re-configured for a Weapon Systems Operator (WSO) and avionics sourced from Western Europe, Israel and India and a glass cockpit. The Su-30MKI was to feature thrust vectoring and would also incorporate canard fore planes to enhance manoeuvrability and was to be the heavy end of the future IAF fleet while the under-development Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) "Tejas" was to be the light end of the future fleet, replacing the MiG-21s. The medium weight region3 was populated by Jaguars, Mirage-2000s, Mig-23 variants and MiG-29s. This segment of the fighter fleet required being modernised and a suitable contender to replace these older fighters, which were rapidly nearing the end of their useful service lives, was searched for starting in the early 1990s.

Initially the Mirage-2000 was identified as the most suitable type for induction to fill the medium slot for which there was a requirement of 126 aircraft with a possible extension by another 63 aircraft. Closure of the French Mirage-2000 assembly line, however, forced a look further afield and the MMRCA Request for Information (RFI) was issued in 2001 after IAF conveyed its need for 126 such aircraft to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) in year 2000. A stopgap request from IAF to MoD, in year 2003, to buy 50 Mirage-2000s to shore up the existing Mirage-2000 aircraft in service, thus preventing a rapid fall in fielded squadrons and especially in the medium segment of the force, was refused by the MoD. The MoD instead asked IAF to go in for a larger fresh tender.4 The tender for the MMRCA was issued in August 2007. The tender drew responses from Boeing and Lockheed Martin from the US, Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), France's Dassault Aviation, European consortium EADS and Sweden's SAAB by February 2008. It was rumoured in April 2009 that SAAB and Dassault were out of the competition due to the aircraft entered by them not meeting a few basic requirements such as the two companies not fielding aircraft with an Active Electronically Scanned Antenna (AESA) radar and the SAAB entry being an older variant of the JAS-39 Gripen aircraft to be offered to IAF. However, it was clarified a month later by MoD that these two companies remained in contention as they had redressed the drawbacks in their originally offered equipment. By April 2010 IAF completed its technical evaluation of the six contenders (Russia's MiG-35, US' Lockheed Martin F-16IN "Viper" and Boeing F-18E/F "Super Hornet", France's Rafale, EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon and Sweden's JAS-39 "Gripen") on the basis of 643 technical parameters5 . The evaluation by IAF included extensive trials of the aircraft in the varied terrain and climatic conditions (ranging from hot and humid coastal and plains / forested areas, dry deserts to high altitude conditions with high temperatures in Ladakh in summer and high altitudes with sub zero temperatures in Ladakh in winter) that they would face during their service with IAF, if selected. This was followed by evaluation of the offsets deals offered by the six contenders as well as evaluation of the projected life cycle costs of the competitors' aircraft. In April 2011, IAF announced that the French Rafale and EADS' Typhoon were short listed ahead of the other four on basis of the technical evaluation.6 The life cycle and initial costs were then examined in detail to identify the lowest bidder or the L1. Rafale was identified as the L1 and exclusive negotiations were initiated with Dassault Aviation to arrive at the final contract.7

Negotiations with Dassault for Rafale
Since the time that India entered into exclusive negotiations with Dassault random media reports about problems in these negotiations have continued to surface. The continuous thread that runs through these reports is that the winning aircraft's manufacturer appears to be shying away from adhering to the terms set out in the initial tender as regards the offsets clause as well as the Transfer of Technology (ToT) clauses.8
While it is understood and even expected that as every aircraft manufacturer and seller is in the business for making a profit and therefore is naturally expected to negotiate hard to maximise his returns; the sporadic reports about glitches in the Rafale negotiations with Dassault bring out signs of a possible desire from the seller to renege on the terms of the initial Request for Proposals (RfP) from global companies. As soon as Rafale was declared the winner Dassault announced that it had entered into an agreement with the newly formed private company Reliance Aerospace,9 which has absolutely zero experience or expertise in aircraft manufacture to build the Rafale in India for the Indian order. Thereafter it was reported that Dassault was shying away from ToT for several critical systems including the AESA radar while also trying to reduce the work share to be done in India to build the aircraft10 . The AESA radar ToT was claimed by Dassault to be infeasible as 'India does not have experience in building such advanced radars and hence would find it difficult to absorb this technology', while the work share re-working seemed aimed at protecting French jobs through holding back as much work as possible to be done in France itself. These problems were apparently resolved to the mutual satisfaction of both parties and the negotiations reportedly moved forward. The latest reports speak about Dassault trying to abdicate its responsibility for supply of the 108 aircraft to be built in India by Hindustan Aerospace Limited (HAL) after the initial supply of 18 French built aircraft are delivered. Most of the concessions reportedly sought by Dassault in the negotiations go against the mandatory conditions specified by the Government of India (GoI). It is difficult for the government to give concessions sought by Dassault at this stage. In this context these demands from Dassault are potential deal breakers. Reportedly, the latest demand is that GoI enter into two separate contracts for MMRCA; one with Dassault for 18 ready built aircraft and a separate one with HAL for 108 domestically built aircraft for which Dassault would supply any essential components required and then disassociate itself from manufacture of these 108 aircraft. This would lead to a situation of irresolvable blame games between HAL and Dassault regarding the quality of the 108 Rafale aircraft locally manufactured with no way to resolve issues amicably, if any problems emerge with these machines. This demand obviously can't be conceded as it could lead to the IAF being put in a untenable situation. It is in IAF's interests to enter into a single contract for all the 126 aircraft with the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) Dassault Aviation in this case. This would give a single point of contact and help fix responsibility and accountability with a single entity. Moreover, as the OERM Dassault is in a better position to monitor the manufacturing process and ensure tat the needed quality is delivered and also the obvious choice in being the party most able to resolve and problems that emerge at a later date with these aircraft. A license manufacturer would not be able to do this as he is just building machines to someone else's design through following laid down instructions and blueprints. The licensed manufacturer would have "know how" about building the aircraft but not "know why". This knowledge gap would severely restrict the licensed manufacturer's ability to resolve problems without assistance of the designer of the aircraft. This is also why the many license manufacture programs undertaken by HAL over the years while giving this organisation "know how" have failed to deliver on "know why" and thus an inability to design and develop required aircraft indigenously forcing the IAF as well as civil aviation companies to import their aircraft. Thus it is obvious that GoI and IAF can not accept the latest Dassault demand that the 108 aircraft to be manufactured by HAL be de-linked from Dassault through entering into a separate contract with HAL for these.

Hard negotiations to maximise profits are understandable but if these reports are correct then Dassault appears to be trying to wriggle out of the terms of the initial request and of the tender that it entered into of its own free will. Some signs of arrogance and indications of bad faith from Dassault are also visible in these negotiation glitches. The Indian media has given prominence to the falling number of IAF fighter squadrons possibly leading to an impression that the IAF is desperate to ink the deal for Rafale on any terms. This false impression may be a factor in Dassault's behaviour in the current round of negotiations. Possibly Dassault is hoping to leverage the dwindling number of IAF fighter squadrons to force an agreement to its advantage. If true this can do immense damage to France's future association with the Indian defence apart from losing out on this particular contract. It is also a fact that the IAF does require modern aircraft inducted at the earliest in order to maintain the force level desired. Hence it is relevant to take a look at IAF's options with regard to the MMRCA.

IAF's Possible Alternatives to the Rafale Deal
The IAF could, in the face of Dassault's unrelenting series of unreasonable demands leading to a total breakdown of the negotiations, take any of the following actions:

IAF could quite easily close negotiations with Dassault citing the company's desire to reverse all the conditions set out in the very first call for participation as being totally unacceptable; and opt to enter into negotiations with any of the other contestants (Eurofighter Typhoon, Boeing's F-18E/F "Super Hornet", Lockheed Martin's F-16IN "Viper", SAAB's JAS 39 "Gripen" or the Russian MiG-35) in the MMRCA competition. From the point of view of costs alone; and also considering the larger strategic picture given the increasing assertiveness and belligerence of the Peoples Republic of China (PRC) as seen in the South China Sea, Senkaku Islands dispute with Japan and the more recent deep incursions by the Peoples Liberation Army's (PLA's) troops into Indian Ladakh near Daulat Beg Oldi (DBO), the Boeing F-18E/F "Super Hornet" may be the most suitable alternative aircraft to the Rafale in the long term interests of IAF and India.
IAF could even forego the MMRCA altogether in favour of larger numbers of Su-30MKIs and deeper upgrades to older types (Mig-29, MiG-27, Jaguar and Mirage-2000), in order to extend their service life, as well as place larger orders of the LCA. More Su-30MKIs would require just an extension of the license terms with Russia and these aircraft would be built in India itself giving better control on technology ownership while reducing the number of types in service. LCAs in larger numbers in conjunction with more Su-30s would lead to a larger heavy and light end and a relatively less populated medium force level; but all built in India with primarily Indian acquired or owned technology. However, the weak middle end of the force structure issue apart, in the long run this option is likely to give a major impetus to indigenous design and development if for no other reason than there being no other choice and for this reason this option may thus be in the longer term interests of the country as well as the IAF.
IAF could also forego the MMRCA in favour of larger numbers of Su-30MKI (including the proposed deep upgrade of the Su-30MKIs to Super 3011 standard, which would include several Fifth Generation features) and earlier induction of enhanced numbers of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), based on Russia's Sukhoi T-50 prototype, being developed jointly with Russia.
Some of the funds currently earmarked for the Rafale purchase could be diverted towards accelerating development of the LCA's later and more advanced variants (LCA Mk-II/III etc)12
The possible options available bring out that the IAF is by no means powerless in face of the apparent bullying by Dassault in the negotiations to finalise the MMRCA contract. Unnecessary delay tactics by Dassault can be countered by IAF. The possible options available make clear that the IAF can ensure its force structure remains as potent as desired even without the Rafale deal fructifying, though with some re working of the long term plans already in place along with a reallocation of available funding. As per reports in magazines such as India Strategic IAF is planning its long term structure to include 272 Su-30MKI, 126 MMRCA, incremental orders of LCA and 144 FGFA, aiming to build up to 42 Squadrons by 202713 . In case MMRCA does not fructify the funds earmarked for this program could be diverted towards increased numbers of any of the other aircraft types.

While the seller does have some advantages over the buyer in the prevailing situation, however, long term interests dictate that undue advantages will be detrimental to the overall strategic relationship between France-India. Historically, France's aircraft industry has had its footprint in India ever since the IAF first bought fighters from Dassault in the early 1950s.

It would be prudent for Dassault to keep the negotiations for finalising the contract within the boundaries set out in the initial RfI, RfP and Tender.

Conclusion
The MMRCA deal has progressed from the initial RfP to selection on technical merits with Rafale as the first choice. However, exclusive negotiations with Dassault have dragged on for over a year with media reports suggesting that Dassault is trying to change the initial terms to evade several crucial clauses regarding ToT, work share to be undertaken by HAL and overall responsibility, etc. All these points were the initial requirements to be met by the vendor. Hence Dassault's demand for changes is surprising. The IAF does have several alternative options in case it becomes clear that Dassault is not really serious about concluding the contract in line with the parameters set out from the beginning. In the bargain it is possible that Dassault may lose out on this contract as well as vitiate the atmosphere to the extent that in future the Indian military keeps the French arms industry at arms length.

http://www.idsa.in/issuebrief/IndiasMediumMultiRole_VivekKapur_060413
 

roma

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i think what the nation needs is some real leadership
 

Abhijeet Dey

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Dassault should stop bullying the Indian Air Force and stick to terms and conditions of the deal. If they go too far then IAF should cancel the deal.
 

halloweene

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Here is an answer from a non french, non incian forumer on keypub :

Not having the original doesn't help, but I'm fairly certain that French source was mentioning workshops in the sense of production/fabrication.

I think you understand the logic in a normal division of liability in a contract, certainly putting all liability on Dassault may motivate them to succesfully empower HAL, but if that is truly a reasonable approach to things, why isn't that the commercial norm? Why would any commercial company accept unlimited liability like that? Wouldn't any corporate executive be opening themself to shareholder lawsuits for signing such a financially reckless document? The example of MKI is not that it is absolutely the worst case, but that failings can and do happen, so contracts should be written up with concrete responsibilities. The MOST accomplished companies can have issues with budget and schedule, see Boeing and KC-X or 787, that is why contracts lay out responsibilities. It's quite possible to craft a solid contract that objectively enumerates Dassault's obligations in ToT and getting HAL up to speed, without creating open-ended obligations for events beyond their normal responsibility in the process, this contract can even cover 'unknown' developments, i.e. at-cost (or whatever) consulting beyond what is forseen. The flip side of that is that India can expect contracts to be followed thru with.

Reliance don't have to be world class accomplished integrators, they are accepting financial responsibility because they are ready to pay up to gain entry to this field. If they don't get ToT out of it, then what exactly are they accomplishing? That's a partner that Dassault can work with, ready and willing to learn. Exactly why can't HAL come up with an arrangement that is as or more attractive to Dassault, if they're so much more competent to boot? The sole issue from Dassault is about contract structure, so if there's some problem with Reliant, either HAL, L&T, Mahindra can be written in to a rationally structured contract. Regardless, there is a huge amount of production and ToT that independent of Reliance/HAL will be conducted via other Indian entities and companies, BEL, etc. The idea that Dassault is not willing to do ToT when that has been advertised from the beginning, the prices include that (vs simple sale price), and if they can't sign a contract with objective measures for ToT, then the deal will simply not go thru, so why bother?

Ignoring the contract structure/liability issue, or rather insisting that it means nothing except as a smokescreen for unwillingness to apply ToT is just sensationalism... Unjustified insistence on signing only one contract between MoD and Dassault/Rafale is simply not a requirement extrapolatable from the terms of the tender or law. The MoD's leaked negotiating position/complaints are thus clearly motivated by HAL itself... Which undercuts the entire position that MoD can only sign one contract with Dassault: If HAL's interests are directly influencing the position of MoD, then there is no reason that HAL itself should not be included on an equivalent level as Dassault and the MoD... If HAL is involved in negotiating the prime contract in that manner, then it IS centrally involved stakeholder, not just a minor subcontractor under Dassault's responsibility.

Finally, if it's just that Dassault won't do real ToT even though that's been the name of the game all along, what does that leave?
It would then go to Eurofighter, so do you think BAE/EADS/Alenia will just sign up to unlimited liability contracts just like that?
 

p2prada

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i like this article : long way hard negos eventual problems are all due to Dassault...Rumours became truhs etc...
The issue here is Dassault wants to ignore the rules of the bid and choose Reliance as the lead integrator. The bid clearly states no other company except HAL can be the lead integrator.
 

DivineHeretic

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The issue here is Dassault wants to ignore the rules of the bid and choose Reliance as the lead integrator. The bid clearly states no other company except HAL can be the lead integrator.
I'm not sure if their position is bad for IAF. IMHO let Reliance take over the production. They can easily capture the talent at HAL should they need to. And with Rafale guaranteeing production deadlines and construction quality, the problem of the Lazy bureacracy @HAL will be rid off.

HAL is too much a pampered child of the GOI, and its work quality is pretty bad for someone involved for over 50 yeats in license building AC. With Reliance, and corporate demands, the managers won't be able to make a mockery of the project.
 

p2prada

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I'm not sure if their position is bad for IAF. IMHO let Reliance take over the production. They can easily capture the talent at HAL should they need to. And with Rafale guaranteeing production deadlines and construction quality, the problem of the Lazy bureacracy @HAL will be rid off.

HAL is too much a pampered child of the GOI, and its work quality is pretty bad for someone involved for over 50 yeats in license building AC. With Reliance, and corporate demands, the managers won't be able to make a mockery of the project.
It won't be as easy as you think. Stealing the talent won't be easy either, especially the top management who are crucial for such a project.

Also there is no guarantee Reliance will do a better job simply because it is a private company.
 

DivineHeretic

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It won't be as easy as you think. Stealing the talent won't be easy either, especially the top management who are crucial for such a project.

Also there is no guarantee Reliance will do a better job simply because it is a private company.
Well, maybe I was just hoping for some miracle.

But anyway, the people who are going to manage the Rafale project haven't undergone training at Dassault IMO. It will be after the project is signed. Of course, they'd have good experience in managing manufacturing lines of other ACs.

These people could theoretically be brought over by cash, but as you said, maybe not in practical.
 

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