Know Your 'Rafale'

[ice berg]

Rafale will murder any F-35 in WVR combat.

In real world scenario F-35 will murder any Rafale before she knows it. You fly, you die.

 

[Armand2REP]

In real world scenario F-35 will murder any Rafale before she knows it. You fly, you die.

I doubt it... as soon as they launch AMRAAM, Meteor will be launched and destroy them first. Export F-35s have beach ball RCS so that is hardly stealthy.

 

[p2prada]

Do you have source please? i'd be interested in, thank you.

Armand posted it earlier. I will look for it.

12 aircraft for $2.34 billion, offering full capabilities and simulators with an operational efficiency that Dassault claims is comparable to 22 Gripen aircraft.

That brings it to $200 Million, nearly. That's $25 Million less than Australia's price tag. That's nearly at par while not even considering the economies of scale in favor of the F-35 over the long run compared to what partners have to pay.

Bringing weapons costs in will change the equations for obvious reasons.

 

[Armand2REP]

Armand posted it earlier. I will look for it..

Garuda - Garuda IV

It doesn't say BVRAAM range was limited. It does say ECM wasn't used to make it fair.

 

[p2prada]

Garuda - Garuda IV

It doesn't say BVRAAM range was limited. It does say ECM wasn't used to make it fair.

I'm not sure if you remember, but I remember we had a discussion about this 2 years ago. About R-77 and Aim-120 with range restrictions to have a fair game vs the MICA in this very exercise. It is on this forum.

 

[Armand2REP]

I'm not sure if you remember, but I remember we had a discussion about this 2 years ago. About R-77 and Aim-120 with range restrictions to have a fair game vs the MICA in this very exercise. It is on this forum.

I remember you assuming that MKI radar would be put in training mode and I was debating that it likely wasn't since BVRAAMs were in play.

 

[p2prada]

I remember you assuming that MKI radar would be put in training mode and I was debating that it likely wasn't since BVRAAMs were in play.

Huh, are we starting this again? MKIs can simulate BVRAAMs in training mode, even Red Flag had the Bars in training mode. BVR worked fine. Probably gave us a 22:1 kill ratio to boot.

Nevertheless we were talking about the missiles, not radar.

Anyway why shouldn't such training regulations apply? India had similar engagement rules against the US when they came here. CI-2004 is well known for the BVR handicaps both sides faced.

 

[Armand2REP]

Huh, are we starting this again? MKIs can simulate BVRAAMs in training mode, even Red Flag had the Bars in training mode. BVR worked fine. Probably gave us a 22:1 kill ratio to boot.

Red Flag ROE was WVR. Garuda IV was full BVR with MKI's radar blazing the sky where M2000 proved with skill they could defeat them most of the time.

Nevertheless we were talking about the missiles, not radar.

The missiles aren't going to be simulated past radar lock.

Anyway why shouldn't such training regulations apply? India had similar engagement rules against the US when they came here. CI-2004 is well known for the BVR handicaps both sides faced.

MKI's at Red Flag went into training mode because the ROEs were WVR and to get everyone training using AWACs for joint operations. Garuda IV was BVR full radar with no AWACs support to teach how to operate outside the NATO framework.

 

[p2prada]

Red Flag ROE was WVR.

EPIC

It is obvious you don't know anything about Red Flag.

Garuda IV was full BVR with MKI's radar blazing the sky where M2000 proved with skill they could defeat them most of the time.

Okay.

 

[p2prada]

I meant according to kpmg, not allowing, of course, sorry

I am not particularly sure of what to make of the report.

It seems unrealistically insane.

But,
F-35 fighter jets would cost $45.8B over 42 years: audit | iPolitics

That estimate accounts for $9 billion in acquisition, $435 million in development, $7.3 billion for sustainment and another $9 billion for operations.

On a per plane basis, that's $140 Million to acquire, $112 Million to sustain and another $140 Million for operations.

Acquisition cost may include training, sustainment may include salaries and other misc expenses while operations may include consumables like fuel, oil etc. Not sure if weapons package is included, else that makes it significantly cheaper.

Personally I find sustainment and operations cost as quite reasonable for a high income country like Canada compared to lower income countries like India and China. But I don't have actual figures from other countries to compare.

Fighter jet plan 'reset' as F-35 costs soar - Politics - CBC News

Another report released today found that, as has been reported, the industrial benefits that would flow from the F-35 program are estimated to be $9.8 billion.

So, industrial benefits of nearly $10 B. Excellent for a 65 aircraft program, followed by,

Documents released Wednesday also revealed that the sticker price for each F-35 jet, based on information from the Joint Strike Fighter Program office, is now $92 million. This is a jump from the government's original promise of $75 million per plane.

An estimated fly away cost of $92 Million. Sounds reasonable. So, it is still below $100 Million that is expected for PAKFA and at least 35% less than the F-22. I think the French Senate pegged a Rafale to cost above PAKFA and below F-22, IIRC.

Comparison between rates from PBO, AG and DND. The link below will make the abbreviations clear.
http://cda-cdai.ca/cdai/images/cdai_analysis_f35_dec2012.pdf

General Accounting Office Report
Here, the F-15s operation costs as of 2000 is estimated to be $ 2.9 Million per aircraft/year. For 36 years, that's $105 Million for its lifetime.

F-22 costs $4.4 Million per aircraft/year as of 2000 estimates. That's $160 Million over 36 years.

Whatever the case, Rafale should also be very similar to the F-35 considering the cost structure is very similar between Canada and France while at the same time the technology level is also at similar levels, save for the stealth aspects.

The media seems to be sensationalizing the figures instead of allowing critical thinking. A $45 Billion cost over 42 years for a fleet of 65 F-35s is a little over $1 Billion/year.

US DoD released a figure of $45000/hour as F-22's operational costs. At 300 hours a year, the F-22 should cost $13.5 Million a year. For a fleet of 183, that is over $2.4 Billion a year minus the acquisition cost of $140 Million/aircraft.

Clearly, the F-35 is far, FAR cheaper even with Canada's over estimated figures.

 

[p2prada]

Do you have source please? i'd be interested in, thank you.

It would seem both were exercised.

Exercise Garuda reaches endgame | StratPost

Wing Commander Upasni writes, "The intensity of the exercise has been increased gradually to enhance the understanding of the contingent members beginning with basic One-versus-One missions and limited BVR (Beyond Visual Range) capabilities, subsequently progressing to multi-aircraft strikes and counter air missions with complete BVR capability, and then concluding with Large Force Engagement sorties."

Only talks about limited and complete, I am still on the look out for specific details.

 

[Armand2REP]

EPIC

It is obvious you don't know anything about Red Flag.

Okay... prove me wrong!

Okay.

"It was with that ( of course simulated ) weapons have had to deal the French pilots who opposed him Mica EM / IR (Mirage 2000 -5F and Rafale F3), Super 530D and Magic 2 (Mirage 2000RDI). And in general they believe that everything went in our favor . Of course , recognizes the pilot Mirage 2000 -5F, their powerful radar allowed them before we learn about the situation in the sky , but we proved radar is not everything."

If you want to call our M2000 pilots liars... be my guest.

 

[Armand2REP]

$10-bn defence deal to be signed during Hollande's 2-day visit
French president to meet industry leaders visit to boost economic ties between two countries
Nayanima Basu / New Delhi Feb 03, 2013,

With an eye on large business deals, French President Francois Hollande is expected to arrive on a two-day visit to India on February 14. This would be his first visit to India since he took charge as president last year.

During his visit, Hollande would visit New Delhi and Mumbai. He plans to call on President Pranab Mukherjee, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Congress President Sonia Gandhi. To boost economic ties between both countries, he would also meet industry leaders.

Hollande would lead a high-powered delegation comprising senior French Cabinet ministers and business leaders from leading French companies. Among the highlights of his visit would be the signing of the $10-billion deal relating to the purchase of 126 French Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft ( MMRCA) manufactured by Dassault Aviation.

$10-bn defence deal to be signed during Hollande's 2-day visit

Thank God! Finalement!!! :thumb:

 

[bose]

Great News indeed!! Hope we have learned the lessons from Scorpene development issues...

 

[anoop_mig25]

Have india-french first iron-out all differences ????and what about nuclear deal/equipments from french

 

[sathya]

Is this final deal or just a framework work agreement ?
What's the status of additional 63 aircraft orders ?

It's too soon to believe.
Especially after defense budget cuts..

 

[Armand2REP]

Is this final deal or just a framework work agreement ?
What's the status of additional 63 aircraft orders ?

It's too soon to believe.
Especially after defense budget cuts..

It only says what it says. The deal is to be signed during Holland's visit. I assume all the talk of exercising contract options for more fighters will be part of the discussion. It looks like Mali intervention really paid off! :thumb:

 

[sathya]

Whatever it is, sooner the better.
Now HAL has to step up to set up production facilities.
I wish rafale flies Indian skies by 2015

 

[sathya]

I guess the line before signature would be
From/to Paris with Love,
On Valentine's day.

 

[cloud_9]

Everybody knew that it would be signed on the French presidents Indian visit Congress will showcase it as a diplomatic win and French president will present it as a employment generator.