Know Your 'Rafale'

Crusader53

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Crusader....buddy.....some questions:
1. When did USA offer F-35 to India for MRCA?
2. When is F-35 really entering service? I mean....really! And when will any orders other than those of partner nations be catered to? Any dates?
3. How much is it costing? We know the Rafale cost....how much extra are you talking for a difference of 0.25 generation maybe?
4. How do you know that it will beat Rafale handsdown in A2A combat? Have they flown any exercises together? From what I have heard, Rafale was more than a match for even F-22 in close combat...so from that logic, F-35 is better than Raptor?
5. When has USA ever allowed a purchaser to tinker with American hardware? I am sure a TOT will be needed to make sure that does not happen. Then how will this "technology" be of any use to AMCA or AURA or even LCA?

I do feel the discussion will be moot after your answer to my first question itself.

1.) The US has made it very clear that the F-35 is available to the Indian Government.
2.) The F-35 is currently in Service with two Training Squadrons (F-35A's & F-35B's) at Eglin AFB in Florida. Which, will be followed shortly by the third. (F-35C's) In addition the first F-35B Squadron (USMC) is forming right now in California. As a matter of fact the first aircraft has already been delivered. To be followed by the rest over the next several months.
3.) Cost at this stage is very hard to come by. As we hear all kinds of numbers from high to low. That said, the initial numbers look promising. As it is cheaper than the F-22 or Typhoon at a similar stage of Development. Also, the F-35 will be made is "VAST" numbers. Which, is a big factor in unit cost. My "guess" is the F-35 will cost very near the Typhoon and Rafale when all is said in done. Yet, much cheaper than the F-22, PAK-FA, or J-20.
4.) The F-35 except for High Super Cruise will be very similar in performance to the F-22. As several Raptor Test Pilots have stated time and time again. (flying both) As for the Rafale matching the F-22 and/or F-35 WVR. I have seen nothing to support such a claim. Nor is it even likely the Rafale or any Generation 4/4.5 Generation Fighter is even likely to make it to the "merge". I remember the F-15 Pilot telling how he never even saw the F-22's until one flew over his head! Also, let's not forget the F-22 and even more so the F-35 have unrivaled Situational Awareness. Which, combined with Stealth is going to be a game changer. Just like Jets were to Propeller Airplanes.
5.) Every country that exports in "Military Hardware" has restrictions. Which, is to protect it's Intellectual Property. Such restriction help prevent 3rd Partys from gaining access to our Technology. I am sure India wasn't so happy when Russia sold much of the same hardware to China that it does to India.
 

halloweene

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The media has been throwing around the price of prototypes. Each of LCA's prototypes cost a bomb to make, so it isn't any different for the F-35.

As a partner, Canada is unfortunately burdened with prototypes and so are many other countries who have ordered the F-35.

India will not face this problem once around 1000 F-35s have been manufactured. So, we will be offered a full fledged aircraft with a stable production cycle rather than the hunkum-bunkum problems the partners are facing.

You can merely look at the size of the orders to believe the costs will reduce drastically once enough numbers are made.

India will have two production lines running in the 2022 period, apart from LCA. The FGFA line and the Rafale line. In case the F-35 is chosen for the USN, with enough orders the Rafale assembly line can start producing F-35s after the Rafales are done. Local production will further reduce costs as it has done for the MKI. I am expecting too much, but it is a possibility.
Agree presented that way, but costs are increasing every drop... And program cost already increased about 50% no? (i dont have exact numbers in mind). Not withstanding the multiple and crucial fixes to be done (particularly JHMS issues, and weapons integration)
 

p2prada

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1.) The US has made it very clear that the F-35 is available to the Indian Government.
Political statement.

Rafale pilots complained about rules prohibiting IR missiles use.
It was fair considering the F-22 does not yet have a cueing system.

The same things have happened with other exercises. During Garuda 2010, Indian and Singapore BVRs were range limited to keep it fair with the French MICAs.
 

p2prada

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Agree presented that way, but costs are increasing every drop... And program cost already increased about 50% no? (i dont have exact numbers in mind). Not withstanding the multiple and crucial fixes to be done (particularly JHMS issues, and weapons integration)
There is way too much being seen in the program costs. Indian program costs have increased by thousands of percentage points since first mooted even with inflation adjusted figures.

The F-35 has been delayed and there have been significant increases in costs, but the unit costs expected from the program is still quite low.

If unit costs are around $200 Million today, for prototypes and considering it is such a massive program, it shows that the overall costs, with stable production, will make it significantly cheaper compared to Rafale which costs over $200 Million each for serial production units(including program costs).

The real reason for criticism stems from the fact that the US Govt sold the F-35s to partners at a possible $65 Million each, which was quite low to begin with. All that bunkum's coming out in the open now. Partners are hoping the F-35 costs $75-85 Million a piece. But initial production costs will always be high. India will not have to pay obscene figures since we can make a bid for it only after production stabilizes.

Rafale was offered to Switzerland at around $200 Million with possibly 10 years maintenance + training. Comparatively most partners (Australia in specific) have pegged the F-35 to be around $225 Million for 36 year life cycle costs. That's significantly cheaper.
 

nishantgupta

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@Crusader53: I am talking about F-35 availability for MMRCA deal which was not there. As someone has already mentioned, most of the partner nations are now looking at "stop gap arrangements" to fill depleting fighter squadrons while the JSF is developed. Why should India be stupid enough to join the bandwagon? We might have just ended up buying the Rafale anyway as a "stop-gap" solution!

After the other replies as well...I rest my case.
 
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p2prada

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Canada will be forced back into the F-35 program. No doubt about it.

They may be bluffing about it.

Sending out RFIs is nothing. RFP is what matters.
 

halloweene

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In the meanwhile...F35 specs lowered...

Reduced F-35 performance specifications may have significant operational impact



Reduced F-35 performance specifications may have significant operational impact
Print
By: DAVE MAJUMDAR WASHINGTON DC 19 hours ago Source:

The Pentagon's decision to reduce the performance specifications for the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter will have a significant operational impact, a number of highly experienced fighter pilots consulted by Flightglobal concur. But the careful development of tactics and disciplined employment of the jet may be able to mitigate some of those shortcomings.

"This is going to have a big tactical impact," one highly experienced officer says. "Anytime you have to lower performance standards, the capability of what the airframe can do goes down as well."


Lockheed Martin

The US Department of Defense's decision to relax the sustained turn performance of all three variants of the F-35 was revealed earlier this month in the Pentagon's Director of Operational Test and Evaluation 2012 report. Turn performance for the US Air Force's F-35A was reduced from 5.3 sustained g's to 4.6 sustained g's. The F-35B had its sustained g's cut from five to 4.5 g's, while the US Navy variant had its turn performance truncated from 5.1 to five sustained g's. Acceleration times from Mach 0.8 to Mach 1.2 were extended by eight seconds, 16 seconds and 43 seconds for the A, B and C-models respectively. The baseline standard used for the comparison was a clean Lockheed F-16 Block 50 with two wingtip Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAMs. "What an embarrassment, and there will be obvious tactical implications. Having a maximum sustained turn performance of less than 5g is the equivalent of an [McDonnell Douglas] F-4 or an [Northrop] F-5," another highly experienced fighter pilot says. "[It's] certainly not anywhere near the performance of most fourth and fifth-generation aircraft."

At higher altitudes, the reduced performance will directly impact survivability against advanced Russian-designed "double-digit" surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems such as the Almaz-Antey S-300PMU2 (also called the SA-20 Gargoyle by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization), the pilot says. At lower altitudes, where fighters might operate in for the close air support or forward air control role, the reduced airframe performance will place pilots at increased risk against shorter-range SAMs and anti-aircraft artillery.

Most egregious is the F-35C-model's drastically reduced transonic acceleration capabilities. "That [43 seconds] is a massive amount of time, and assuming you are in afterburner for acceleration, it's going to cost you even more gas," the pilot says. "This will directly impact tactical execution, and not in a good way."

Pilots typically make the decision to trade a very high rate of fuel consumption for supersonic airspeeds for one of two reasons. "They are either getting ready to kill something or they are trying to defend against something [that's trying to kill] them," the pilot says. "Every second counts in both of those scenarios. The longer it takes, the more compressed the battle space gets. That is not a good thing."


Lockheed Martin

While there is no disputing that the reduced performance specifications are a negative development, there may be ways to make up for some of the F-35's less than stellar kinematic performance.

Pilots will have to make extensive use of the F-35's stealth characteristics and sensors to compensate for performance areas where the jet has weaknesses, sources familiar with the aircraft say. But engagement zones and maneuvering ranges will most likely be driven even further out against the most dangerous surface-to-air threats.

In an air-to-air engagement, for example, tactics would have to be developed to emphasize stealth and beyond visual range (BVR) combat. If a visual range engagement is unavoidable, every effort would have to be taken to enter the "merge" from a position of advantage, which should be possible, given the F-35's stealth characteristics.

Once engaged within visual range, given the F-35's limitations and relative strengths, turning should be minimized in favor of using the jet's Northrop Grumman AAQ-37 distributed aperture system of infrared cameras, helmet-mounted display and high off-boresight missiles to engage the enemy aircraft. If a turning fight is unavoidable, the F-35 has good instantaneous turn performance and good high angle of attack (50°AOA limit) performance comparable to a Boeing F/A-18 Hornet, which means a similar strategy could be adopted if one finds him or herself in such a situation.


Lockheed Martin

Lockheed, for its part, maintains that the F-35 has performance superior to that of any "legacy" fighter at high altitudes. "Having flown over 4000 hours in fighter jets, I will tell you the F-35's capability at altitude, mostly driven by the internal carriage of those weapons, as a combat airplane, this airplane exceeds the capabilities of just any legacy fighter that I'm familiar with in this kind of regime," says Steve O'Bryan, the company's business development director for the F-35 during a January interview.

But much of the discussion is theoretical at this point, the F-35 has not been operationally tested, nor have tactics been developed for the aircraft's usage. How the aircraft will eventually fare once fully developed and fielded is an open question.
 

sukhish

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Check ATLC, out of six WVR engagements, 5 draws, one victory to F22. Rafale pilots complained about rules prohibiting IR missiles use.


How come they call F-22 a super stealth, I mean it is very clear to the naked eye in the engagement.
 

halloweene

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The F-35 has been delayed and there have been significant increases in costs, but the unit costs expected from the program is still quite low.
Not allowing to KPMG audit for Canada

Rafale was offered to Switzerland at around $200 Million with possibly 10 years maintenance + training. Comparatively most partners (Australia in specific) have pegged the F-35 to be around $225 Million for 36 year life cycle costs. That's significantly cheaper.
170 Million including, simulators, pilot training and use of training facilities in France for 30 years maintenance if i remember well

More precisely,

Dassault's revised offer comprises four price-of-delivery options:
"¢ 22 Rafales for $3.3 billion.
"¢ 18 aircraft for $3.1 billion, including all capabilities requested by Switzerland.
"¢ 18 Rafales, excluding air-ground and reconnaissance capability, and simulators.
"¢ 12 aircraft for $2.34 billion, offering full capabilities and simulators with an operational efficiency that Dassault claims is comparable to 22 Gripen aircraft.
Rafale program only derailed by 4% btw.

But it is very hard to really compare prices as they never include the same things (training, maintenance, ammunitions etc)
 
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halloweene

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The same things have happened with other exercises. During Garuda 2010, Indian and Singapore BVRs were range limited to keep it fair with the French MICAs.
Do you have source please? i'd be interested in, thank you.
 

halloweene

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Lockheed F-35 Head to Retire

Lockheed F-35 Head to Retire | Defense News | defensenews.com


The head of Lockheed Martin's F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program plans to retire, ending a decade-plus run in charge of the most expensive weapon program in DoD history.

Tom Burbage will step down from his role at the end of March, Lockheed spokeswoman Laura Siebert confirmed to Defense News.

"After 32 years of working with Lockheed Martin and legacy divisions, Tom Burbage has decided to retire," Siebert wrote in an email. "His impact to the F-35 Program and other areas of Aeronautics is immeasurable."

"At this time, nothing has been announced," regarding Burbage's replacement, Siebert wrote.

The news was initially reported by Aviation Week.

Burbage's decision to retire comes after recent shakeups, both at Lockheed and with the F-35 program. New CEO Marillyn Hewson took control of the company at the start of 2013 after a sex scandal forced CEO-in-waiting Christopher Kubasik from the role. In late December, Gen. Christopher Bogdan became the new chief of DoD's JSF program, months after he stated that the relationship between Lockheed and the joint program office was the "worst I've ever seen."

The move also comes at a sensitive time for the F-35 program, both domestically and internationally. The jet has suffered recent setbacks, including a widely cited report of problems from the military's annual testing report and the decision by partner nation Canada to reconsider whether to purchase their block of F-35s.

Most recently, all F-35B jump-jet variants were grounded after a Jan. 16 test flight at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., was aborted due to engine problems. That issue has been identified as improperly crimped lines in the fueldraulic system of the jet, a situation that one person with knowledge of the situation expects to have taken care of by "early February."

There have been recent successes, however. Burbage oversaw the completion of DoD's purchase of a fifth block of fighters in early December, then quickly reached a tentative agreement for a sixth block before the end of 2012.

Burbage is currently in the U.K. for meetings on the jet. The F-35 Joint Program Office could not provide an immediate statement on Burbage's retirement.



Shouldnt there be an independent thread about F35, or did i miss it?
 

halloweene

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AASM future

According to Air&Cosmos, 25th january issiue, a techncocommercial study was founded in 2012 by DGA (procurement agency). The aim of the study is not transform AASM into a netcentered weapon. The missile/bomb could be reprogrammed not only before flight like paveway IV for ex, but during flight, either by the shooting platform or another platform in a cooperative engagement. Another platform (plane, TACP...) could reprogram, even during flight, target coordinates, impact angle and fuse.
SAGEM is also studying dual mode AASM (apart from GPS/INS standard AASM).
The idea would be quickly bring the ammunition close to a target using laser illumination then switch to terminal IR guidance.
AASM 125 (already tested on M2K in 2009) well advanced, with far longer range then 250 kg present kit.
Discussions are on the run with Saudi Arabia in order to integrate AASM onto their tornado IDS... Having a dig at Paveway IV?
 

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