Know Your 'Rafale'

[noob101]

When I first started trolling the defense forums about the MMRCA all the talk was about Eurofighter vs Rafale and I was also caught up in that discussion, I like many paid little attention to other possibilities [given F16,F18 and Grippin had little chance].... the only other 2 alternatives were the Mig 35 and F35....

I was for the EFT but was not too disappointed when Rafale and like many just relived that this was over and something was going to happen, but more than 1 year down the road I am wondering if we never there was enough discussion about the F35... to me it looks simple MMRCA is going to be the primary ground attack aircraft for the IAF and I think the F 35 might be better for that role and at the rate that we are going at we wont see a single Rafale before 2017 and in any strength for deployment before 2018 would have been the same for F 35.... If we had better leadership I think we would have gotten a lot more from a deal with Unikil for the F 35 than we are getting from the French....

 

[p2prada]

but more than 1 year down the road I am wondering if we never there was enough discussion about the F35... to me it looks simple MMRCA is going to be the primary ground attack aircraft for the IAF and I think the F 35 might be better for that role and at the rate that we are going at we wont see a single Rafale before 2017 and in any strength for deployment before 2018 would have been the same for F 35.... If we had better leadership I think we would have gotten a lot more from a deal with Unikil for the F 35 than we are getting from the French....

I would agree that if the roles were reversed and the French had the F-35, that would have been the best bet. The F-35 is a beast of a fighter, better than all the MRCA fighters combined.

However wishes are granted only in fairy tales.

The problem with unkil has always been that of industrial participation and ToT on one hand with foreign policy and sanctions on the other. No advantages to India there. The F-35 will not be made sanction proof for India, heck even France cannot guarantee it.

Anyway, IAF did consider the F-35 internally and went ahead with FGFA instead. So, the IAF looked at the F-35 for their heavy fighter requirement (as a 5th gen counterpart to the MKI) instead of for the MMRCA role. There was a quote from an IAF official, two years ago, who said we won't be going for the F-35 since we have chosen FGFA as our future 5th gen fighter.

So, there should be no space at all for the F-35 in the IAF.

On the other hand, the Navy has far lesser requirements for industrial participation and ToT, you can say almost nil because they may simply end up buying the fighters directly instead of transferring production to HAL. That would allow all the participating companies greater flexibility in placing bids for the N-MRCA tender. This may be the only chance for the F-35 (and the Super Hornet) to see service in India.

 

[noob101]

I would agree that if the roles were reversed and the French had the F-35, that would have been the best bet. The F-35 is a beast of a fighter, better than all the MRCA fighters combined.

However wishes are granted only in fairy tales.

The problem with unkil has always been that of industrial participation and ToT on one hand with foreign policy and sanctions on the other. No advantages to India there. The F-35 will not be made sanction proof for India, heck even France cannot guarantee it.

Anyway, IAF did consider the F-35 internally and went ahead with FGFA instead. So, the IAF looked at the F-35 for their heavy fighter requirement (as a 5th gen counterpart to the MKI) instead of for the MMRCA role. There was a quote from an IAF official, two years ago, who said we won't be going for the F-35 since we have chosen FGFA as our future 5th gen fighter.

So, there should be no space at all for the F-35 in the IAF.

On the other hand, the Navy has far lesser requirements for industrial participation and ToT, you can say almost nil because they may simply end up buying the fighters directly instead of transferring production to HAL. That would allow all the participating companies greater flexibility in placing bids for the N-MRCA tender. This may be the only chance for the F-35 (and the Super Hornet) to see service in India.

I was on the same page as you about Unkil not giving ToT and production to India but now I think with an aircraft order of 200 we would have been the largest customer for the F 35 and we could of had them at the right time when the whole project was seeming to sink, I think if we had better leadership and were willing to spend some money [we are spending 50 billion in to PAK FA] we would have gotten some nice concessions at least with the production side of it.... after all Turkey strong armed it way into the program, there is no way in hell that we could not have.....

As far as the sanctions are concerned, we are living in the past too much and have to be willing to take risks, the cold war is over and US-India ties are getting better.... There were to things in history that really pissed of Unkil 1 nuclear testing and 1971 war.... 1 as far as the nuclear testing is concerned it was American policy to prevent horizontal proliferation to both responsible and irresponsible states... and I don't think that Unkil cared at that time weather India had nukes but that it was going to start an arms race with Pakistan and they were right it did hence the reason for sanctions but they were lifted and we have a much better nuclear deal with them now

let me paint you a picture... let say Syria, Egypt were going to develop a nuclear weapon but the way to stop it was if Isreal gave up its nukes, what do you think unkil would do to make that happen?

Unless for some reason we decide to resume nuclear testing and even then I don't see India coming under any sanctions form the US, well not to be rude but noone has ever presented a realistic scenario where this would happen at least on DFI....

 

[nishantgupta]

I was on the same page as you about Unkil not giving ToT and production to India but now I think with an aircraft order of 200 we would have been the largest customer for the F 35 and we could of had them at the right time when the whole project was seeming to sink, I think if we had better leadership and were willing to spend some money [we are spending 50 billion in to PAK FA] we would have gotten some nice concessions at least with the production side of it.... after all Turkey strong armed it way into the program, there is no way in hell that we could not have.....

So what you are suggesting is that instead of spending 20 billion on a perfectly flying Rafale which happens to meet all the technical requirements of the IAF or spending a huge amount on a much better PAK FA for which Russia has willingly allowed to give production to India as well as a TOT which our ppl must have liked since they went for it... we go for a plane which has been marred by delays and overspends, which will be "propped up" (in your own words) by our money, which is a doubtful starter even in countries which had initially voted for it (Canada, Australia, Japan), we put in the money and then TRY to eke out a good deal. Be sure that unkil will never give production to India.... On the other hand, we might end up signing for things like "Insurance against carrying nuclear armed missiles" and maybe "insurance against downing a Paki plane of American origin"....

Just because an F-35 is amreekan plane (still under development), why do we have to bend over backwards when we are getting better deals from elsewhere?

Nukes are not the only reason of sanctions that may happen. An attack on a terrorist camp in POK could also infuriate americans....just depends on what they want out of pakis at that point of time.... And you never know...pakis might start demanding F-18's to "keep balance" in the subcontinent

 

[p2prada]

I was on the same page as you about Unkil not giving ToT and production to India but now I think with an aircraft order of 200 we would have been the largest customer for the F 35 and we could of had them at the right time when the whole project was seeming to sink, I think if we had better leadership and were willing to spend some money [we are spending 50 billion in to PAK FA] we would have gotten some nice concessions at least with the production side of it.... after all Turkey strong armed it way into the program, there is no way in hell that we could not have.....

My argument isn't based on F-35 replacing Rafale in the deal, my argument is based on IAF's belief that F-35 isn't considered a medium MRCA aircraft to even qualify as a contender, placing it more in the heavy combat aircraft category.

Also, the numbers don't matter to the US in order to qualify for greater industrial participation and ToT, the companies are restricted by the Congress when it comes to ToT. It has nothing to do with the companies per se and changing the laws will take years maybe even decades. 200 is a small number for that.

As a matter of fact, if AMCA sees major delays, then F-35 may have a chance again. But that may be unlikely.

Turkey is part of NATO, we aren't even a major non-NATO ally, heck we are not even strategic partners.

As far as the sanctions are concerned, we are living in the past too much and have to be willing to take risks, the cold war is over and US-India ties are getting better

The future may be the same, for eg: if we weaponize space, or add heavy bombers to our fleet, not add more reactors to safeguards, create full fledged ICBMs, weaponize thermonuclear bombs. All these can be used as an excuse to sanction us. There may even be sanctions due to trade laws and practices, like continuing to trade with Iran during sanctions, making monetary policies that benefit only India etc.

I think there are fresh sanctions on some of our banks for trading with Iran.

 

[Shirman]

Those who r saying to go for F-35 JSF Guys hold ur horses.......

1). Look at Canada a country which is almost reliant on U.S. is facing difficulty with TOTs......

2). Even Turkey which wanted a free ride for its TUFX fighter program (from the know-how of F-35 program is now in a serious fix as it cancels n delays its orders.....

3). European members along with Isreal and Japan don't have any choice.....

4). Nor India has that much capacity to opt for three different stealth a/cs imagine SU-FGFA / Hal AMCA n F-35 JSF..........

So entire J.S.F. aka F-35 program now will see further delays alteast in weapons maturation phase.....on top of that only time will tell weather the f-35 is combat effective , combat proven or not........

 

[average american]

Heres the problem I have with French Fighters, the French Air Force only has 206 combat aircraft in service. France has only built 101 Rafales, 720 Mirages. The French has no experience to speak of in air combat since World War II. Thats less then 1000 planes, compared to US nearly 50,000 Teen Fighters F15s, F16s F18s on, both for US use and export. List of fighter aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The bottom line is you learn a lot more building 50,000 fighters then one 1000 and operating 2500 fighters for 50 years then 206.....

The USA has 2,500 operational fighter.

KILL RATIOS The Format is:
[Name of aircraft] Air-to-air kills - Air-to-air losses - Losses to ground fire
[Name of conflict aircraft was used in] (Nation that used aircraft in said conflict) Air-to-air kills - Air-to-air losses - Losses to ground fire

Aircraft which were destroyed on the ground are not included in this analysis, because any plane can get destroyed on the ground no matter how good it or its pilot is.

F-16 Falcon 76-1-5
Gulf War (USA) 0-0-3
No-Fly Zones (USA) 2-0-0
Bosnia (USA) 4-0-1
Kosovo (USA) 1-0-1
Kosovo (Netherlands) 1-0-0
Kosovo (Portugal, Belgium, Denmark, Turkey) 0-0-0
Afghanistan (USA, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway) 0-0-0
Iraq (USA) 0-0-0
Syrian border clashes 1979-1986 (Israel) 6-0-0
Operation Opera (Israel) 0-0-0
Lebanon War (1982) (Israel) 44-0-0
Lebanon War (2006) (Israel) 3-0-0
Intifada (2000-present) (Israel) 0-0-0
Soviet-Afghan War (Pakistan) 10-0-0
Border clashes (Pakistan) 1-0-0
Kargil War (Pakistan) 0-0-0
Northwest border wars (Pakistan) 0-0-0
Aegean Sea clashes (Turkey) 1-1-0
Venezuelan Coup 1992 (Venezuela) 3-0-0

F-15A/C/I/S Eagle 102-0-0
Gulf War (USA) 32-0-0
Gulf War (Saudi Arabia) 2-0-0
Northern Watch, Southern Watch, Desert Fox (USA) 2-0-0
Bosnia (USA) 0-0-0
Kosovo (USA) 4-0-0
Afghanistan (USA) 0-0-0
Iraq (USA) 0-0-0
Syrian border clashes 1979-1981 (Israel) 19-0-0
Operation Opera (Israel) 0-0-0
Lebanon War (1982) (Israel) 38-0-0
Lebanon War 1982-2000 (Israel) 4-0-0
Lebanon War (2006) (Israel) 0-0-0
Iran Gulf Clash 1984 (Saudi Arabia) 1-0-0

F-15E Strike Eage 1-0-3
Gulf War (USA) 1-0-2
Northern Watch, Southern Watch, Desert Fox (USA) 0-0-0
Bosnia (USA) 0-0-0
Kosovo (USA) 0-0-0
Afghanistan (USA) 0-0-0
Iraq War (USA) 0-0-1
Lebanon War 1982-2000 (Israel) 0-0-0
Lebanon War (2006) (Israel) 0-0-0
Yemen Border Clashes (Saudi Arabia) 0-0-0

F/A-18 Hornet 2-1-1
Gulf of Sidra 1986 (USA) 0-0-0
Gulf War (USA) 2-1-1
Gulf War (Canada) 0-0-0
Kosovo (USA) 0-0-0
Kosovo (Spain) 0-0-0
Kosovo (Canada) 0-0-0
Afghanistan (USA, Australia) 0-0-0
Iraq (USA, Australia) 0-0-0

F/A-18E/F/G Super Hornet 0-0-0
NFZs (USA) 0-0-0
Afghanistan (USA) 0-0-0
Iraq (USA) 0-0-0

F-14 Tomcat 135-4-4
Vietnam (1975) (USA) 0-0-0
Gulf of Sidra (USA) (1980) 2-0-0
Lebanon 1983 (USA) 0-0-0
Gulf of Sidra (1986) 0-0-0
Gulf of Sidra (1989) 2-0-0
Gulf War (USA) 1-0-1
Iraq NFZs (USA) 0-0-0
Bosnia (USA) 0-0-0
Kosovo (USA) 0-0-0
Afghanistan (USA) 0-0-0
Iraq (USA) 0-0-0
Iran-Iraq War (Iran) 130-4-4

F-4 Phantom 306-106-545
Vietnam War (US Navy) 40-7-66
Vietnam War (USMC) 3-1-74
Vietnam War (USAF) 108-33-337
Desert Storm (USAF) 0-0-1
NFZs (Turkey) 0-0-0
Soviet border clash 1976 (Iran) 1-0-0
Dhofar War (Iran) 0-0-1
Kurdish rebellion (Iran) 0-0-1
Iran-Iraq War (Iran) 68-29-33
Iran Gulf Clash 1984 (Iran) 0-1-0
Kurdish Civil War (Iran) 0-0-1
War of Attrition (Israel) 26-3-5
Yom Kippur War (Israel) 55-28-22
Syrian border clashes 1974-1981 (Israel) 4-3-1
Lebanon War (1982) (Israel) 1-1-1
Lebanon War 1982-2000 (Israel) 0-0-2

Mirage 2000 1-0-1
Gulf War (France, UAE) 0-0-0
Bosnia (France) 0-0-1
Kosovo (France) 0-0-0
Afghanistan (France) 0-0-0
Aegean Sea 1996 (Greece) 1-0-0
Kargil War (India) 0-0-0
Alto-Cenapa War (Peru) 0-0-0

Sea Harrier 21-0-3
Falklands War (UK) 21-0-2
Gulf War (UK) 0-0-0
Bosnia (UK) 0-0-1
Kosovo (UK) 0-0-0
Sierra Leone 2000 (UK) 0-0-0
Iraq War (UK) 0-0-0

Mirage F.1 24-43-20
Chadian-Libyan War (France) 0-0-0
Afghanistan (France) 0-0-0
Paquisha War (Ecuador) 0-0-0
Alto-Cenapa War (Equador) 2-0-0
Iran-Iraq War (Iraq) 15-35-11?
Gulf War (Iraq) 0-8-0
Gulf War (Kuwait) 3 (possibly 12)-0-0
Western Saharan War (Morocco) 0-0-7
Angola Border War (South Africa) 4-0-2
Aegean Sea clashes (Greece) 0-1-0

Rafale 0-0-0
Afghanistan (France) 0-0-0

Tornado ADV 0-0-0
Gulf War (UK, Saudi Arabia) 0-0-0
NFZs (UK) 0-0-0
Kosovo (Italy) 0-0-0
Iraq War (UK) 0-0-0

JF-17 Thunder 0-0-0
Waziristan War/NW Pakistan campaigns (Pakistan) 0-0-0

J-7 1-0-0
Sudanese Civil War (Sudan) 0-0-0
Uganda-Tanzania War (Tanzania) 0-0-0
Sri Lankan Civil War (Sri Lanka) 1-0-0

MiG-21 240-501-[too little information for an accurate count of losses to ground fire]
Vietnam War (North Vietnam) 78-95-0
Vietnam War (North Korea) 1-0-0
Vietnam War (USSR) 6-0-0
1967 border clashes (Syria) 0-7-0
Six-Day War (Egypt) 5-13-
Six-Day War (Syria) 0-7-
Six-Day War (Iraq) 0-1-
War of Attrition (Syria) 7-56
War of Attrition (USSR) 0-5-0
War of Attrition (Egypt) 18-93
Yom Kippur War (Syria) 30-26
Yom Kippur War (Egypt) 26-65
Yom Kippur War (Iraq) 1-9
Egypt-Libya Border War (Egypt) 6-1
Soviet-Iranian border clashes (USSR) 1-0-0
Syrian border clashes 1974-1981 (Syria) 5-26
Lebanon War 1982 (Syria) 2-38
Turkish border violation 1986 (Syria) 1-0-0
Ogaden War (Somalia) 1-6
Angola Bush War (Angola) 1-3
Congo Civil War (Zaire) 0-0-0
Congo Civil War (Angola) 0-0-1
Uganda-Tanzania War (Uganda) 0-0-1
Uganda-Tanzania War (Tanzania) 0-0-1
Mozambique Civil War (Mozambique) 1-0-0
Sudanese Civil War (Sudan) 0-0-3
Somali Civil War (Somalia) 0-0-0
Ethiopian-Eritrean War (Ethiopia) 0-3
Iran-Iraq War (Iraq) 32-40
Gulf War (Iraq) 0-4-0
Indo-Pakistani War 1965 (India) 0-0-
Indo-Pakistani War 1971 (India) 6-1-
Kargil War (India) 0-0-1
Soviet-Afghan War (Afghanistan) 0-4
Atlantique Incident 1999 (India) 1-0-0
Afghan Civil War 1992-1996 (United Front) 4-0-
Afghan Civil War 1992-1996 (Dostum-Gulbuddin Militia) 0-2-
Abkhazian War (Georgia) 0-0-0
Nagorno-Karabakh War (Azerbaijan) 0-0-6
Nagorno-Karabakh War (Armenia) 0-0-1
1986 Cuban border incursion (Cuba) 1-0-0
Slovenian War (Yugoslavia) 0-0-0
Croatian War (Yugoslavia) 1-0-7
Croatian War (Croatia) 0-0-1
Bosnia (Serbia) 0-0-0
Kosovo (Serbia) 1-0-0
Balloon shootdown (Belarus) 1-0-0
1966 US China border violation 1-0-0
1963 US Czech border violation 1-0-0
Korean DMZ (North Korea) 1-0-0
Sa'dah Insurgency (Yemen) 0-0-1

MiG-23 25-102-[too little information for an accurate count of losses to ground fire]
Syrian border clashes 1974-1981 (Syria) 3-2-0
Lebanon War 1982 (Syria) 1-30-
Israeli UAV shootdown 2002 (Syria) 1-0-0
Iran-Iraq War (Iraq) 16-56
Gulf War (Iraq) 0-8-0
NFZs (Iraq) 0-1-0
Gulf of Sidra 1989 (Libya) 0-2-0
Egypt-Libya Border War (Libya) 0-2
Soviet-Afghan War (USSR) 0-3
Iran-Afghan border violations (USSR) 4-0-0
Ethiopian-Eritrean War (Ethiopia) 0-1
Angola Bush War (Cuba) 0-0-0

MiG-25 8-8-1
War of Attrition 0-0-0
Yom Kippur War 0-0-0
Syrian border clashes 1974-1981 (Syria) 0-2-0
Iran-Iraq War (Iraq) 5-1-0
Syrian-Iraqi border violation (1986) (Iraq) 1-0-0
Soviet-Iranian border violations (1986-87) (USSR) 0-2-0
Gulf War (Iraq) 1-2-0
NFZs (Iraq) 1-1-0
Nagorno-Karabakh War (Azerbaijan) 0-0-1

MiG-29 6-18-1
Lebanon War 1982-2000 (Syria) 0-2-0
Gulf War (Iraq) 0-5-0
Transnistra War (Moldova, Russia) 0-0-0
Brothers in Rescue incident (Cuba) 2-0-0
Slovenian War (Yugoslavia) 0-0-0
Croatian War (Yugoslavia) 0-0-0
Bosnia (Serbia) 0-0-0
Kosovo (Serbia) 0-6-0
Kargil War (India) 0-0-0
Ethiopian-Eritrean War (Eritrea) 3-5-0
Georgian border violation 2008 (Russia) 1-0-0
Darfur War (Sudan) 0-0-1

Su-27 6-0-2
Abkhazia War (Russia) 0-0-1
First Chechen War (Russia) 1-0-0
South Ossetia War (Russia) 0-0-0
Ethiopian-Eritrean War (Ethiopia) 5-0-0
Somali Civil War (Ethiopia) 0-0-0
Angolan Civil War (Angola) 0-0-1

F-5 Freedom Fighter/Tiger 25-23-30
Vietnam War (USA) 0-0-1
Vietnam War (South Vietnam) ?-?-?
Vietnamese-Cambodia War (Vietnam) ?-?-?
Ogaden War (Ethiopia) 7-0-2
Yom Kippur War (Morocco) 0-0-0
Iran-Iraq War (Iran) 18-23-12
Western Saharan War (Morocco) 0-0-14
Yemen Border Clashes 1979 (Taiwan) ?-?-?
Gulf War (Saudi Arabia) 0-0-1

Fighters that have yet to see combat: F-22 Raptor, Saab Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon, Ching-Kuo, J-10, Saeqeh, Azarakhsh, MiG-31, Su-30, Su-33, Su-35.

Observations:

1) US multi-role fighters seem to be primarily used in the strike role. They barely break even between kills and losses on the air-combat scorecard.

2) The F-15 Eagle is completely dominant as a fighter, 1) because it's a really good aircraft, and 2) because it's so expensive it can only be used by nations with enough money to invest in the training and maintenance it takes to make really good air forces.

3) Looking at the losses of the F-4 to ground fire, one can see how big of a threat SAMs were in the 1960s and 1970s. Compare this to more modern fighters and one can see how aircraft design has outpaced SAM systems.

4) The poor performance of the Mirage F.1 is somewhat surprising.
5) The ridiculously high kill ratio of the F-14 in Iranian service is also surprising. The common canard is that training trumps technology, but an air force with great technology but beset by political purges and struggling with maintenance problems and embargoes can still have a turkey shoot against an air force with both poor training and poor technology.

6) Su-27 is the only Russian fighter to have a positive kill ratio in combat, but as we all know this is likely due to "monkey model" export fighters, as well as the poor training standards of Arab air forces.

 

[Drsomnath999]

Thales: very important contract to upgrade the Rafale

The DGA has notified Thales first installment of a contract of 150 million euros for the development of target designation pod next generation.

Discreetly, the Directorate General of Armaments notified late December Thales a major contract for the modernization of the Rafale, it was learned from sources. This is a first tranche of € 55 million contract to develop the next generation of one of the key equipment of the combat aircraft: the target designation pod, also called "PDL NG" , for "laser designation pod next generation" .
Expected for several months, this segment represents about a third of the estimated development since the DGA should normally notify the end of the year an additional $ 115 million. If we add the following making 45 copies planned, the total commitment will approach 450 million in favor of the defense electronics group. Deliveries are planned between 2018 and 2022.
Damocles, the name of the platform in use today, is used to guide bombs via a laser beam and works in any weather . It equips the Mirage 2000, the Rafale or the Sukhoi 30.
Modernization is a key step to export the Rafale. In 2011, when negotiations with the United Arab Emirates in full swing, France sought to finance part of the development of the next generation of Abu Dhabi which leaned heavily on the Sniper, equipment competitor Lockheed Martin.
Thales : très important contrat pour la modernisation du Rafale, Actualités

 

[Armand2REP]

Heres the problem I have with French Fighters, the French Air Force only has 206 combat aircraft in service. France has only built 101 Rafales, 720 Mirages. The French has no experience to speak of in air combat since World War II. Thats less then 1000 planes, compared to US nearly 50,000 Teen Fighters F15s, F16s F18s on, both for US use and export. List of fighter aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The bottom line is you learn a lot more building 50,000 fighters then one 1000 and operating 2500 fighters for 50 years then 206....

According to World Air Forces 2012, the ALA has 352 fighters and Navy has 59. That is less than 1000 but over 400, no air force but the US has that many modernized fighters. Size isn't important, what you do with them is. It is clear Rafale dominates anything but the F-22.


All of the US fighter combat history you posted was against inferior opponents so it is rather irrelevant. When US combat aircraft went up against any kind of fair fight, like Soviet piloted MiG-15s, they had their ass handed. Most of the combat kills now are thanks to the missiles used, not the aircraft that fired them. Mirages in Israeli hands racked up good scores but you ignore that.

Come on man... a Mirage F1 operated by Saddam against USAF... who the hell do you expect to win?

 

[noob101]

So what you are suggesting is that instead of spending 20 billion on a perfectly flying Rafale which happens to meet all the technical requirements of the IAF or spending a huge amount on a much better PAK FA for which Russia has willingly allowed to give production to India as well as a TOT which our ppl must have liked since they went for it... we go for a plane which has been marred by delays and overspends, which will be "propped up" (in your own words) by our money, which is a doubtful starter even in countries which had initially voted for it (Canada, Australia, Japan), we put in the money and then TRY to eke out a good deal. Be sure that unkil will never give production to India.... On the other hand, we might end up signing for things like "Insurance against carrying nuclear armed missiles" and maybe "insurance against downing a Paki plane of American origin"....

Just because an F-35 is amreekan plane (still under development), why do we have to bend over backwards when we are getting better deals from elsewhere?

Nukes are not the only reason of sanctions that may happen. An attack on a terrorist camp in POK could also infuriate americans....just depends on what they want out of pakis at that point of time.... And you never know...pakis might start demanding F-18's to "keep balance" in the subcontinent

1 spending an extra 20 billion to get F 35 at around the same time as the MRCA is much much better... Its simple would you rather have a 5th generation fighter or a 4++ generation fighter when they would be available at around the same time for the IAF
2 F 35 is still under development I will give you that but you have to understand the pentagon has put all its eggs in that basket and it could cost 50 billion more the American Tax payer for development but Unkil is hell bent on getting it done, even the F 35B STOVL model [there is no alternative] put is simply its GOING TO GET DONE
3 My most important point is about our domestic production, all HAL has done for more than 3 decades is assemble knock down kits for the most part and I would say they got good as they seem to be doing a good job with the MKI despite the delays.... so one could say that we are good at putting air craft together and not much more than that and It would not bother me so much if F 35 were not assembled in India
4 The point I was trying to make is even if we did not get full ToT or indigenous production would could have gotten concessions in other areas that would have helped in the future
5 I never suggested that PAK FA would be replaced by F 35 as they are both completely different aircraft, I don't care what people say but there is no way the PAK FA is going to be adopted for a Ground Attack role, it was never designed that way [given it might have some attack capabilities] its primarily air superiority fighter. we need both and I think the PAK FA is very good idea as we are going to get the best air superiorty fighter.... and I support the F35 now as its going to be the best ground attack fighter

6 Unkil is not going to place sanctions on India for raiding terror training camps in PAK.... well because Unkil did the same thing ie OBL, and also
contrary to popular opinion sanctions even military have to have support form other countries mostly other western countries... And I don't see the British French or Germans up in arms about India raiding terror camps in response to a terrorist attack
7Even if there is a "No Nukes on F 35" clause it wont matter, as we have a no first strike policy but in case we have to retalite we could just go ahead and ignore it .... and I dont think Unkil would care
8 PAK getting F 18's are independent of what the IAF gets but it depends on if they can find the money or not for it, either way 10 squadrons of F 35 would make the PAK military shit in their pants compared to the Rafale would might only cause then to loose a little sleep....
9 My whole argument is based on us having better leadership so that the above things could get done......

 

[p2prada]

1 spending an extra 20 billion to get F 35 at around the same time as the MRCA is much much better... Its simple would you rather have a 5th generation fighter or a 4++ generation fighter when they would be available at around the same time for the IAF

It was SH/Rafale/F-16/Mig-35/EF/Gripen on one hand for MRCA and it was F-35 vs PAKFA on the other for our 5th gen requirement.

F-35 was never offered to India for MRCA. Even today, we do not yet know whether Lockheed Martin has even replied to Indian Navy's RFI sent out way back in 2010. It was different if F-35 was the one participating rather than F-16.

As for the biggest reason why F-35 isn't part of MRCA... time frame. IAF wants MRCA in the 2015 time frame, F-35 won't be available for export to India at least until after 2021. By 2021, IAF may be expecting to induct over a 100 Rafales and not be waiting for the first squadron of F-35s.

3 My most important point is about our domestic production, all HAL has done for more than 3 decades is assemble knock down kits for the most part and I would say they got good as they seem to be doing a good job with the MKI despite the delays.... so one could say that we are good at putting air craft together and not much more than that and It would not bother me so much if F 35 were not assembled in India

No assembly of MRCA in India will kill our entire aerospace sector in one night.

4 The point I was trying to make is even if we did not get full ToT or indigenous production would could have gotten concessions in other areas that would have helped in the future

ToT is irreplaceable. There are terms like Learn from your past mistakes for a reason. If we progress without meaningful ToT then the Mig-21 saga will repeat again.

5 I never suggested that PAK FA would be replaced by F 35 as they are both completely different aircraft, I don't care what people say but there is no way the PAK FA is going to be adopted for a Ground Attack role, it was never designed that way [given it might have some attack capabilities] its primarily air superiority fighter. we need both and I think the PAK FA is very good idea as we are going to get the best air superiorty fighter.... and I support the F35 now as its going to be the best ground attack fighter

PAKFA is being designed for all roles, not just air superiority.

7Even if there is a "No Nukes on F 35" clause it wont matter, as we have a no first strike policy but in case we have to retalite we could just go ahead and ignore it .... and I dont think Unkil would care

Without ToT we cannot integrate nuclear warheads on aircraft by ourselves. Without ToT we can't integrate much of anything. We needed the Israelis to tinker with our Mirage-2000s during Kargil because we couldn't do it by ourselves.

9 My whole argument is based on us having better leadership so that the above things could get done......

Even if King Solomon ruled India, the situation wouldn't change. There are somethings which are not in our control.

 

[nishantgupta]

While US has clearly stated that F-35 was NOT shown to India for its MRCA project (making this whole discussion rather useless actually), jsf comes with problems which are not just about development. Check here for the latest on budget cuts which could result in the program losing a lot of sheen (and this is NOT an LCA where the country is doing a fighter of this calibre for the first time with continuously upgraded specs and sanctions for a lot of time). No one still knows the price at which the JSF will be available for the world or when it will be available. For all you know, the extra 20 billion might become 40.... At least Rafale is a capable fighter which is currently flying and has tested waters in A2G as well (refer articles on recent Mali issue please).

As far as HAL capabilities are concerned, I agree that all they have done till date (for fighter planes) is assemble from kits. But they are not to blame. We never had our own fighter for them (or for anyone else in India) to make from scratch. For all purpose HAL has been able to do the assembly part well and it does give jobs to Indians along with having ability to take care of maintenance of the planes. This is the advantage of assembly inside the country which we will not get for F-35.

TOT's with unkil will always come with catch. And one deal will not necessarily mean advantage in some other deal. There are simply too many players involved and not just the government. Do you think if we buy F-35's, we will get a better AWACS? Or maybe throw in a Nimitz class! In a battle, IMO its better to have fully fit average soldiers than handicapped hero's.... i.e. if you wrongly call a Rafale as "average" in front of an F-35. And F-35 will be handicapped if half the codes and uses are restricted by unkil through TOT's.

I will also highly differ on the inability of PAK-FA for ground attack but those are my opinions & inferences and I will let the plane do the talking once it comes of age.

 

[jalsa]

@p2prada what will be the unit cost of F-35 if and when it is available?

 

[Crusader53]

but more than 1 year down the road I am wondering if we never there was enough discussion about the F35... to me it looks simple MMRCA is going to be the primary ground attack aircraft for the IAF and I think the F 35 might be better for that role and at the rate that we are going at we wont see a single Rafale before 2017 and in any strength for deployment before 2018 would have been the same for F 35.... If we had better leadership I think we would have gotten a lot more from a deal with Unikil for the F 35 than we are getting from the French....
noob101 ↑


Personally, I think India made a colossal mistake when it decide to go with a 4.5 Generation Fighter instead of the F-35. Which, India was in an excellent position to get great terms on. Also, while you can argue how good the PAK-FA may or may not be. Yet, nobody disagrees India (nor Russia) could afford such types in great numbers. In short India needs a 5th Generation Multi-Role Strike Fighter that it can operate in a Hi/Low Mix with the PAK-FA/FGFA. (also needs a Naval Variant)


Further, India could have took advantage of both design (PAK-FA/F-35) and incorporate them into the forthcoming MCA. Thereby playing the Russians and Americans against each other for the best possible deal.


Instead India will waste its time and billions of dollars a 4.5 Generation Fighter. That will clearly be outclassed by 5th Generation Types just as it enters service. This is not what could happen but what will happen!


Sorry, many can say the sky is blue and everything is great. Yet, the truth is just out the window. Maybe some should open the window and take a look.


Respecfully

 

[Shirman]

but more than 1 year down the road I am wondering if we never there was enough discussion about the F35... to me it looks simple MMRCA is going to be the primary ground attack aircraft for the IAF and I think the F 35 might be better for that role and at the rate that we are going at we wont see a single Rafale before 2017 and in any strength for deployment before 2018 would have been the same for F 35.... If we had better leadership I think we would have gotten a lot more from a deal with Unikil for the F 35 than we are getting from the French....
noob101 ↑


Personally, I think India made a colossal mistake when it decide to go with a 4.5 Generation Fighter instead of the F-35. Which, India was in an excellent position to get great terms on. Also, while you can argue how good the PAK-FA may or may not be. Yet, nobody disagrees India (nor Russia) could afford such types in great numbers. In short India needs a 5th Generation Multi-Role Strike Fighter that it can operate in a Hi/Low Mix with the PAK-FA/FGFA. (also needs a Naval Variant)


Further, India could have took advantage of both design (PAK-FA/F-35) and incorporate them into the forthcoming MCA. Thereby playing the Russians and Americans against each other for the best possible deal.


Instead India will waste its time and billions of dollars a 4.5 Generation Fighter. That will clearly be outclassed by 5th Generation Types just as it enters service. This is not what could happen but what will happen!


Sorry, many can say the sky is blue and everything is great. Yet, the truth is just out the window. Maybe some should open the window and take a look.


Respecfully

Sir, As i Told to every body and I repeat it again loudly,,,,,,,,

U.S. WONT LET TURKEY AND AUSTRALIA ACCESS ITS CRITICAL TEC HELL INDIA CAN"T EVEN IMAGINE THE POSSIBILITY OF HAVING some advantage of the design ur talking about......(F-35/PAK-FA).......

Ok Forget U.S. even France is Dertermined not to let India ie- Hal have its critical top of the line Tec-transfer, Know-how, Components etc..... The expect us to Assemble their Fighters in India while India ''imports" Knocked Down Units in some assembly plants which acts as Aerospace Manufacturing Facility Completely BOLLOCKS..... This is the main reason why the deal is not moving forward though India has agreed for more Rafales which should bring the price factor down.....

India is determined to Su PAKFA/FGFA as ur Partner countries are committed to F-35 Program.....Also our Air Martial has said that India will not and i Repeat Not go for 2 Different Stealth Fighter concepts.......

Here's what i said in some other post which i think answers ur argument :-

"quite possibly all 4.5 gen fighters (From INDIAN MMRCA) table will have good chance beyond 2020 if some one comes up with the tech to counter Stealth / or at least weaponise it to threaten western tech....In such scenarios it will be easy pickings for even 4 gen with good data link connectivity n AESA radar against Stealthy cruise missiles and UCAVS....." There r research goin on on Anti-Stealth Capabilities in Russia, U.S. n Europe which gives conventional 4.5 to 4 Gen fighters Fairly Good Chance to Kill the American Stealth Bird..... So people saying that 4.5 Gen fighters have limited future is complete nonsense.....

Breaking News People :- Australia buys more F/A-18 as F-35 gets More delayed........
Link:- http://weapons.technology.youngester.com/2013/01/australia-prepares-to-buy-more-f-18-as.html

The Kangaroo Land Dudes r smart they already though of plan B (f/a-18E/F).....before thinking of Plan A (F-35).....:thumb:

 

[nishantgupta]

Sorry, many can say the sky is blue and everything is great. Yet, the truth is just out the window. Maybe some should open the window and take a look.

Respecfully

Crusader....buddy.....some questions:
1. When did USA offer F-35 to India for MRCA?
2. When is F-35 really entering service? I mean....really! And when will any orders other than those of partner nations be catered to? Any dates?
3. How much is it costing? We know the Rafale cost....how much extra are you talking for a difference of 0.25 generation maybe?
4. How do you know that it will beat Rafale handsdown in A2A combat? Have they flown any exercises together? From what I have heard, Rafale was more than a match for even F-22 in close combat...so from that logic, F-35 is better than Raptor?
5. When has USA ever allowed a purchaser to tinker with American hardware? I am sure a TOT will be needed to make sure that does not happen. Then how will this "technology" be of any use to AMCA or AURA or even LCA?

I do feel the discussion will be moot after your answer to my first question itself.

 

[p2prada]

@p2prada what will be the unit cost of F-35 if and when it is available?

It should be cheaper than Rafale and EF.

Nobody can put a cost figure on it, yet. Even with the cost escalations, the program costs have been as much as EF. With thousands being built it will be cheap.

As of today all countries have signed deals with unit costs being significantly lesser than $100 Million a piece.

Personally, I think India made a colossal mistake when it decide to go with a 4.5 Generation Fighter instead of the F-35.

It isn't India's fault if LM replied to the RFP with the F-16IN instead.

Yet, nobody disagrees India (nor Russia) could afford such types in great numbers.

Should be more than the F-22 for both countries.

In short India needs a 5th Generation Multi-Role Strike Fighter that it can operate in a Hi/Low Mix with the PAK-FA/FGFA. (also needs a Naval Variant)

AMCA will form the LO mix today.

Further, India could have took advantage of both design (PAK-FA/F-35) and incorporate them into the forthcoming MCA. Thereby playing the Russians and Americans against each other for the best possible deal.

ADA would never do that. Their scientists are proud and will always give more preference to an indigenous method over foreign. Also, F-35 cannot contribute to AMCA because we won't have even one aircraft even a decade after AMCA's design is frozen.

Instead India will waste its time and billions of dollars a 4.5 Generation Fighter. That will clearly be outclassed by 5th Generation Types just as it enters service. This is not what could happen but what will happen!

It is fine for us because our enemies will also not have an equivalent LO end 5th gen aircraft by the time we get AMCA.

 

[halloweene]

It should be cheaper than Rafale and EF.

Nobody can put a cost figure on it, yet. Even with the cost escalations, the program costs have been as much as EF. With thousands being built it will be cheap.

As of today all countries have signed deals with unit costs being significantly lesser than $100 Million a piece.

Are you kidding? Check Canadian audit (amongst multiple examples)

 

[p2prada]

Are you kidding? Check Canadian audit (amongst multiple examples)

The media has been throwing around the price of prototypes. Each of LCA's prototypes cost a bomb to make, so it isn't any different for the F-35.

As a partner, Canada is unfortunately burdened with prototypes and so are many other countries who have ordered the F-35.

India will not face this problem once around 1000 F-35s have been manufactured. So, we will be offered a full fledged aircraft with a stable production cycle rather than the hunkum-bunkum problems the partners are facing.

You can merely look at the size of the orders to believe the costs will reduce drastically once enough numbers are made.

India will have two production lines running in the 2022 period, apart from LCA. The FGFA line and the Rafale line. In case the F-35 is chosen for the USN, with enough orders the Rafale assembly line can start producing F-35s after the Rafales are done. Local production will further reduce costs as it has done for the MKI. I am expecting too much, but it is a possibility.

 

[jalsa]

@p2prada I think our Navy can go ahead and buy a few F-35's, as you mentioned they don't need much of ToT.