Know Your 'Rafale'

[p2prada]

MiG-35 couldn't even track assigned air targets much less implement multi-radar functions. Just come to terms, IAF wanted a true and tested multi-role plane, not paper airplanes. They couldn't even do better than bringing a MiG-29. MiG-35 doesn't even exist.

 

[p2prada]

right now IN is buying Mig29Ks for its newest AC then its because they are very impressed with this bird. and Mig35 is the most adavnced version of it, which is unmatched with any aircraft of India's neighbors, whether F16 block52 or J10b (the upgraded J10, hopefully), Mig35 is undoubtly suprior to these Top Guns of China, Pakistan for a very less price....:thumb:

Mig-35s definitely exceed the Mig-29K, but the N-LCA Mk2 should also exceed the Mig-29K. In a few years the aircraft may come up for MLUs, so we may see Mig-35 technology going on it.

Decklander says there may be a second contract of 45 Mig-29Ks in the future from the IN. Well, I doubt it, but it is possible.

 

[Somreet Bhattacharya]

HAL to be integrator of fighter jets in MMRCA project: Def Min...(PTI)

 

[halloweene]

Detail lies in hidden costs

Rafale may have won the contest for the supply of Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft to India, but there's a strong possibility that we will end up paying far, far more than the bid amount. It appears that Rafale had quoted an unrealistically low amount to win the contract

After Rafale won India's Multi-Role Fighter aircraft contest in February this year and the deadline given to its manufactures Dassault to submit the final documents expired last week, one would think that having no international orders since its first flight 21 years back, Dassault would have bent over backwards and produced the required documentation in time. But nothing was submitted. Behind this simple lapse lies a very complex story — one that should make every Indian taxpayer pay much more attention to how the Defence Ministry spends its money.

The Rafale story has just one ending: India will not receive even half the technology that was promised by Dassault in the company's "100 per cent" claim, and the cost of the plane is likely to escalate by well over 100 per cent, by conservative estimates.

100% ToT wasnt mentioned in MMRCA RFP.

The Defence Ministry's think-tank, the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses, was the first to defend the missed deadline — variously claiming mischief, pointing to interested parties, and then going on to assert that no matter what the delays or cost, Rafale's induction was a national priority. It gave a whole host of bogus reasons and cyclic logic that only a Government servant could think up. Ultimately this is the same line used to defend the disastrous NREGA scheme where 'need' trumps demonstrated failure.

What's the link between NREGAand MMRCA?

There is a very sound logic to the delay. Having underpriced the Rafale in the initial bidding, France has no option but to look for ways of cost escalation in order to make a profit. This is exactly what happened with the Scorpene submarines
.
Two points here . (i) manipulation : Scorpene are french, rafales are french, then cost will escalte for rafale...Twisted logic
(ii) what are the reasons for scorpenes cost escalation? Delays. What are the reasons for delays???


and the Russian Gorshkov carrier

Once again, we're far from rafale...

, which were offered at ludicrously low prices, precisely to pre-empt the competition, and since then have seen anywhere between 200 and 2000 per cent escalation. One would reckon that with a 2000 per cent budgetary overshoot at the Defence Ministry, some babu's heads would roll or at the very least some lessons would have been learnt? Evidently not. At some point, some one really needs to have a long hard look at whether the IAS officers— like all products of standards tests, truly are as monumentally incompetent as their actions reveal or if, in fact, this is graft masquerading around as ineptitude and shielded by a lack of accountability.

While the IDSA was busy defending the deal, a little known French publication was spilling the beans, pretty much predicting the course of the entire Rafale procurement. L'usine nouvelle reported that Dassault was now convinced that India did not have the technological expertise to indigenise the Rafale's production and well over 50 per cent of the production would remain in France — including the all-important Active Electronically Scanned Array radar.

Any clue? Offsets contracts not signed yet.

Evidently in the five years that the Medium Multi-Role Combat Airraft competition dragged on, France did not see this deficiency — promising us a full 100 per cent technology transfer. Even at that time the high foreign content of the Rafale was deliberately concealed, especially the seven per cent of it which comes under the US International Traffic in Arms Regulations controls

Which seven percent?

, which means India, will not even be allowed to open the boxes in which those components are housed. Now, within six months of winning the contract based on such promises they have already determined that India cannot cope with such advanced 21-year-old technology.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and Defence Research and Development Organisation are typical socialist enterprises — not required to perform, they merely provide useless employment for the uselessly educated. Since there are no guidelines or timeframes for research translating into tangible products, they are yet to produce a single operational weapons system. Their research and development being done without competent market research, much of their attention is diverted to answering questions no one asked.

The deciding factor that won the Rafale the competition was its lower cost. Even a cursory glance at the Rafale's costing for the French Senate done in 2009 indicated a unit price 2.25 times of what the French quoted us, not factoring in inflation.

Oh because the author knows the price quoted! Great, let ask him to give precise references please. Second point Report from french Senate included R&D AND VAT... Which obviously foreign customers dont pay.

Now given that all this knowledge was public, when quality control is highly suspect, when your grocer sells you 'premium basmati' at 1/3rd the market price, it takes a real specimen to not step back and ask, "Why"? Even after costing the country a full 2000 per cent in hidden costs over the Gorshkov

Again the Gorshkov. I didnt know Dassault was building the Gorshkov


, evidently South Block mandarins do not involve themselves in such trivial details so long as they get their D1 flats, Gymkhana memberships and chauffeur-driven cars. Honestly living that life you could be excused for thinking public money grows on trees.

What can one expect from here? Four things: First, Dassault's final submission will take much longer to materialise — possibly another year or so. Second, a stream of news reports that we've already heard a thousand times before will come out telling us how unprepared our institutions are to receive this technology. Third, when that document from Dassault does indeed materialise, expect a minimum 170 per cent jump in costs attributed to "time delay", "unforeseen problems" and "supply chain variables". Let's not forget that, when this competition started out in 2007 the deal was meant to cost us $10.6 billion. 'Now' the figure has already doubled to $20 billion

Where do that number comes from?

, while any intelligent person who bothered studying the publicly available costs

Any not so intelligent person believing these prices are public. And not checking what they include (maintenance, training facilities, weapon systems??? It is near impossible to quote the exact price of a plane because this price depends a lot on those)

would have fixed the price at $27 billion as far back as 2009. Finally, India will not achieve self-sufficiency in combat aviation any time this century — after all, if standardised tests produce bureaucrats this daft, HAL and DRDO's similarly standardised test scientists can hardly be expected to be much better?

At some point, one needs to introspect very deeply.

The author first should.

This is a complex societal matrix of woe combining a broken education system, a complete lack of governance, a total lack of accountability, institutional collapse, a worrying lack of innovation, introspection and self-correction all leading up to near total intellectual ossification. And you think simplistic solutions like the Lokpal would work?

Well simplistic twisted ignorant articles seem to work...

 

[hello_10]

Mig-35s definitely exceed the Mig-29K, but the N-LCA Mk2 should also exceed the Mig-29K. In a few years the aircraft may come up for MLUs, so we may see Mig-35 technology going on it.

Decklander says there may be a second contract of 45 Mig-29Ks in the future from the IN. Well, I doubt it, but it is possible.

its under negotiation, whether Mig29k with the techs of Mig35 too, along with AESA etc. or, directly buy a batch of 50 Mig35..... we always need the the latest technologies with our arms, but we do need to keep buying to fill the gap. we can't really wait till 2017 for Rafale to provide aircrafts for IN, even if Rafale woud be favorable on any of LCA or Mig29.... if we need something right now, we want now. hence, neither we may wait for the naval version of PAK FA.....

we always need to buy something to fulfill our requirements, and even Rafale isn't available right now but we do have a running production line of Mig29, which would produce upto the 80% parts of Mig35 too. we hope for a news regarding Mig29k with AESA, including the latest techs of Mig35. or, a batch of Mig35 itself, considering the news that IAC-1 is delayed till 2017 then we may delay a naval version of Mig29k until LCA - N mk2 is arrived :thumb:

 

[halloweene]

Rafale with American A2G kit is far more capable than the EU kit plus a lot cheaper to go for US weapons. Moreover, none can match the delivery scale or speed of these weapons. SLAM-ER, JSOW, JDAM/L/ER, Paveway Family, SDB, CBU family, AAGRM etc. better weapons at cheaper rates.

I would be VERY interested if you could develop, quoting both performance and prices

 

[Somreet Bhattacharya]

its under negotiation, whether Mig29k with the techs of Mig35 too, along with AESA etc. or, directly buy a batch of 50 Mig35..... we always need the the latest technologies with our arms, but we do need to keep buying to fill the gap. we can't really wait till 2017 for Rafale to provide aircrafts for IN, even if Rafale woud be favorable on any of LCA or Mig29.... if we need something right now, we want now. hence, neither we may wait for the naval version of PAK FA.....

we always need to buy something to fulfill our requirements, and even Rafale isn't available right now but we do have a running production line of Mig29, which would produce upto the 80% parts of Mig35 too. we hope for a news regarding Mig29k with AESA, including the latest techs of Mig35. or, a batch of Mig35 itself, considering the news that IAC-1 is delayed till 2017 then we may delay a naval version of Mig29k until LCA - N mk2 is arrived :thumb:

But isn't the MiG-29K compard to the LCA a totally different aircraft??? if the IN inducts they will induct both..the LCA is supposed to supplement the MiG...

 

[p2prada]

its under negotiation, whether Mig29k with the techs of Mig35 too, along with AESA etc. or, directly buy a batch of 50 Mig35..... we always need the the latest technologies with our arms, but we do need to keep buying to fill the gap. we can't really wait till 2017 for Rafale to provide aircrafts for IN, even if Rafale woud be favorable on any of LCA or Mig29.... if we need something right now, we want now. hence, neither we may wait for the naval version of PAK FA.....

Russia's buying Mig-29Ks for the Kuznetsov.

As for India, I doubt the 45 extra Mig-29Ks are coming. There was this report about a second MRCA deal for 80 aircraft a year ago. I have a feeling the Mig-29Ks will be sacrificed for an entirely new tender. Or it is possible both contracts may go hand in hand. But I'm not sure if we have the money for it. The Mig-29Ks cost only $30-35 Million a piece. Worth the money and the new engine is first class.

we always need to buy something to fulfill our requirements, and even Rafale isn't available right now but we do have a running production line of Mig29, which would produce upto the 80% parts of Mig35 too. we hope for a news regarding Mig29k with AESA, including the latest techs of Mig35. or, a batch of Mig35 itself, considering the news that IAC-1 is delayed till 2017 then we may delay a naval version of Mig29k until LCA - N mk2 is arrived :thumb:

We have two STOBAR carriers. So we will need Mig-29Ks for these two. For the IAC-2 we will need CATOBAR capable aircraft. It is confirmed that IAC-2 will be a CATOBAR.

 

[p2prada]

But isn't the MiG-29K compard to the LCA a totally different aircraft??? if the IN inducts they will induct both..the LCA is supposed to supplement the MiG...

Technically the N-LCA Mk2 should be superior to the Mig-29K. But single engine aircraft for carrier operations may not be such a great idea. We managed with the Sea Harrier, not necessary the same will work for the LCA.

Lets see what IN does if and when N-LCA Mk2 is ready.

 

[arnabmit]

It would be CATOBAR or EMALS?

Russia's buying Mig-29Ks for the Kuznetsov.

As for India, I doubt the 45 extra Mig-29Ks are coming. There was this report about a second MRCA deal for 80 aircraft a year ago. I have a feeling the Mig-29Ks will be sacrificed for an entirely new tender. Or it is possible both contracts may go hand in hand. But I'm not sure if we have the money for it. The Mig-29Ks cost only $30-35 Million a piece. Worth the money and the new engine is first class.



We have two STOBAR carriers. So we will need Mig-29Ks for these two. For the IAC-2 we will need CATOBAR capable aircraft. It is confirmed that IAC-2 will be a CATOBAR.

 

[hello_10]

As for India, I doubt the 45 extra Mig-29Ks are coming. There was this report about a second MRCA deal for 80 aircraft a year ago. I have a feeling the Mig-29Ks will be sacrificed for an entirely new tender. Or it is possible both contracts may go hand in hand. But I'm not sure if we have the money for it. The Mig-29Ks cost only $30-35 Million a piece. Worth the money and the new engine is first class.

Technically the N-LCA Mk2 should be superior to the Mig-29K. But single engine aircraft for carrier operations may not be such a great idea. We managed with the Sea Harrier, not necessary the same will work for the LCA.

Lets see what IN does if and when N-LCA Mk2 is ready.

thats what I said in my last post, PAK FA of naval version is the best but it will be a reality sometimes after 2022+. Rafale would be the best 4th gen for IAC-1 but again it will be a reality sometimes after 2018+. LCA-N mk2 will have many superior techs, thats why its delayed till 2016+ this way, in fact. and even if Mig35 is also not complete yet, but the next batch of Mig29k may have its many techs including AESA as it has a 'running production line', thats the most important among any other option, what will IN buy for the next 3-4 years, the best and 'available' aircraft.....

the current order of Mig29k is not going to complete even till 2014, and IN is seriously considering the different factors, we have many news regarding news order of Mig29k, check google. but delay in IAC-1 may make them turn to Mig35 directly from 2014+ as over 80% parts of Mig35 is in fact produced on the production line of Mig29. but one thing is certain that IN don't want the production line of Mig29 get closed before LCA-N starts. similarly how IAF mustn't let the production line of SU30mki get closed until production line of Rafale and PAK FA, both start. we will here a news about the new order of Mig29k with AESA or straight Mig35 sometimes this year, hopefully :thumb:

 

[p2prada]

It would be CATOBAR or EMALS?

I think you mean Steam catapults or Electric. Both are CATOBAR.

IN will mostly prefer Electric, but only the US has it. Maybe if IN decided to go for 80 F-35s, then EMALS may be an option.

I doubt IN will get EMALS anytime soon though.

 

[p2prada]

Mig-35 isn't carrier compatible. Only Mig-29K is.

PAKFA may end up being a STOBAR aircraft instead of CATOBAR. That's the problem with aircraft designed for the air force first and the navy next. It is next to impossible to convert a PAKFA/FGFA to a CATOBAR version unless designed from the start to be carrier compatible.

One reason why Sea Gripen, EF and even Mig-29K may not participate in IN's next tender. Only F-35C, Rafale and Super Hornet fit the CATOBAR requirement as of today.

Btw, both Gorshkov and Vikrant will be STOBAR, so only Mig-29Ks and N-LCA Mk2s.

 

[halloweene]

Sorry to contradict you, but Stobar capability of rafale has been studied and confirmed by Dassault

 

[arnabmit]

Le Rafale Marine compatible avec les porte-avions dotés de tremplin | Mer et Marine

Indian aircraft carrier enters sea trials as navy eyes Rafale

Mig-35 isn't carrier compatible. Only Mig-29K is.

PAKFA may end up being a STOBAR aircraft instead of CATOBAR. That's the problem with aircraft designed for the air force first and the navy next. It is next to impossible to convert a PAKFA/FGFA to a CATOBAR version unless designed from the start to be carrier compatible.

One reason why Sea Gripen, EF and even Mig-29K may not participate in IN's next tender. Only F-35C, Rafale and Super Hornet fit the CATOBAR requirement as of today.

Btw, both Gorshkov and Vikrant will be STOBAR, so only Mig-29Ks and N-LCA Mk2s.

 

[hello_10]

Mig-35 isn't carrier compatible. Only Mig-29K is.

PAKFA may end up being a STOBAR aircraft instead of CATOBAR. That's the problem with aircraft designed for the air force first and the navy next. It is next to impossible to convert a PAKFA/FGFA to a CATOBAR version unless designed from the start to be carrier compatible.

One reason why Sea Gripen, EF and even Mig-29K may not participate in IN's next tender. Only F-35C, Rafale and Super Hornet fit the CATOBAR requirement as of today.

Btw, both Gorshkov and Vikrant will be STOBAR, so only Mig-29Ks and N-LCA Mk2s.

I know this. Mig29k is of naval version, not Mig35, and PAK FA is not for that purpose. but we sincerely believe that we will have a naval version of 5th gen aircraft, single engine and having techs of PAK FA....:thumb:

and thats what I said, if IAC-1 is delayed till 2017, then IN may consider about LCA-N mk2 or Rafale for it, as they will already have 45 Mig29k till then too....

but we do know that the next contract of Mig29k will have many techs of Mig35 including AESA. and, 'either' Mig29k, or, straight Mig35, or 'both'. they are considering all the the option based on the different factors right now. but we want to keep this 'running' production line until LCA-N mk2 starts......

if IN wish for more naval version Mig29k, then it will be the first to consider, otherwise Mig35 through using this production line too, or both, all the options on the table. and if they may wait for LCA-N mk2, as anyhow IAC-1 is delayed till 2017, then its again provide them an opportunity to think about even Rafale also in future. as too many Mig29Ks will limit their future buying, in fact.....:ranger:


=> IAC-2, Nuclear Powered?????

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...d-nuclear-powered-aircraft-carrier-india.html

Russia is developing a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier: Voice of Russia

5 Dec 2012

IAC 2 is envisaged as a far larger warship - with a displacement of approximately 60,000t - and could enter the fleet within 10 to 15 years. Senior leaders within the navy are leaning toward deploying this ship with catapults, sources say, with a decision on whether to integrate steam catapults or an electromagnetic aircraft launch system to come as soon as July 2013. New Delhi is also considering the possibility of making IAC 2 a nuclear-powered vessel.

Through the use of catapults, IAC 2 would be able to operate larger, more powerful aircraft, such as the Dassault Rafale

India nears catapult decision for second indigenous carrier

and considering the above news, we may guess that IAC-2 might be carraying around 60 fixed wing aircrafts, along with 20+ rotary wing also. and here we hope around 30 Rafale and 30 PAK FA of naval version for it, or a new single engine 5th gen using the techs of PAK FA, similar to F35..... lets see, it would be a reality by 2020/25, hopefully

 

[Drsomnath999]

PARIS: India could buy up to 189 of the Rafale fighter jets currently being used by France to bomb Islamist militants in Mali, sources close to negotiations on the multi-billion dollar deal have told AFP.

The possibility of an additional 63 jets being added to an expected order for 126 was raised during a visit by India's foreign minister Salman Khurshid to Paris last week, they said.

"There is an option for procurement of an additional 63 aircrafts subsequently for which a separate contract would need to be signed," a source said.

"Presently the contract under negotiation is for 126 aircraft but we are talking about the follow-up."

India's contemplation of a much bigger than anticipated extension of its airpower will inevitably cause concern in neighbouring Pakistan given the permanently simmering tensions between the two countries.

The Indian press has estimated the value of the deal for 126 Rafales at $12 billion (nine billion euros).

A 50 per cent increase in the number of planes ordered would take it to around $18 billion, in a huge boost for the struggling French defence industry, although much of the economic benefit will be shared with India.

New Delhi selected France's Dassault Aviation as its preferred candidate to equip the Indian Air Force with new fighter jets in January 2012.

Under the deal on the table, the first 18 Rafales will be built in France but the next 108 will be assembled in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd in Bangalore.

"The first aircraft will be delivered three years after signature of the contract," the source added.

An industry expert said the time lag reflected India's request for two-seater jets rather than the one-seater model that Dassault currently produces.

India has insisted that the deal involves significant technology transfer and that Indian suppliers secure work equivalent to around half of the value of the contract.

"The negociations for off-sets are progressing well," the source added.

The conclusion of the deal has been repeatedly delayed, with India having initially set a target of the end of last year, which slipped to March 31, 2013, the end of the current fiscal year.

French defence sources said last week that was unlikely to be met but voiced confidence it would finally be done, a stance echoed by Khurshid on his visit to Paris.

"We know good French wine takes time to mature and so do good contracts," Khurshid said after a meeting with French foreign minister Laurent Fabius.

India mulls huge increase in Rafale order, may buy up to 189 fighter jets - Times Of India

 

[Sam2012]

Re: India mulls huge increase in Rafale order, may buy up to 189 fight

First sign the contract

I think SCAM UPA-2 will not sign MMRCA before 2014 , because they need money for election

After 2014 polls new govt will tak its sweet own time to sign th deal more chance of deal falling apart considering the econmony & scam suituation in INDIA

This is the reason why Air marshal Barbora was so critical on political establishment:thumb:

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Re: India mulls huge increase in Rafale order, may buy up to 189 fight

i think mmrca should have been ordered 10 years ago given the dwindling squadron no. of iaf.drdo should have started work on fifth gen aircrafts in early 2000s like the chinese who concurrently worked on fifth gen while developing fourt gen.instead of investing on our own r&d government choose to participate in the russian project whose design was alredy frozen and even now the iaf has failed to issue asqr to ada for amca which is unlikely to have its fist flight by 2020.also the kaveri project is in limbo and will fail to deliver 90kn thrust even by 2020.

 

[datguy79]

Re: India mulls huge increase in Rafale order, may buy up to 189 fight

Any idea when India will get the first of the off-the-shelf Rafales?