Know Your 'Rafale'

[Neil]

Well let them sign contract for first 126 and then they can go fro increases numbers

conspiracy mode...:: might be for SFC....there were rumors about SFC wanted to its own fleet...

 

[Immanuel]

Actually first let them sign the deal with Dassault finally playing its tricks with words like full tot, I hope this deal is scrapped, waste of time and money, Dassault neither has production pace or french industry the pace to meet the vast needs. We'll end up assembling this very expensive bird that gives us little advantage in strategic relations. We were always better off buying the Super Horny International, still the only bird that can reliably at a far lower cost meet all our needs.

 

[hello_10]

The more the number of Rafales sold. The more is the benefit for India.

Hope they clinch the UAE and Brazil deals quickly. Qatar and Kuwait will fall in line after that. The French armed forces will be allowed to increase their Rafale numbers as well.

thats what we discussed one day, that even if the Rafale was the best among the others during the M-MRCA context, it didn't have even a single buyer till India opted for it and Switzerland with hardly 8-10 isn't meant for that...... I mean to say, if India go for a big deal then only Rafale can have more and more buyers otherwise US and EU are using their influence to sell their arms like F15/Super Hornet and Euro-fighter Typhoon.... for example of the Brazilian tender, the second biggest arm tender after Indian MRCA, or the 3rd if we add the already signed F15 deal of Saudi Arabia, we get the news that Brazil has very high pressure to buy Super Hornet while their all the forums favors Rafale, as what I myself saw till now????????

its really hard to get a customer first, and we do understand that Rafale deal for India is all about survival of this fine aircraft, which is well regarded as the best Multi-Role aircraft of today's world....(well rated as the second best for A2G roles after Super Hornet, with highest voting for the Dog Fight for what SH is considered as a junk only...)


=> Rafale Vs SH Vs EFT Typhoon

all the Brazilian forums are fed up with the evaluation of Rafale by Swiss air force as below, as compare to SH and EFT Typhoon

read the point 7 of Executive Summary this report as below:

=> http://www.sonntagszeitung.ch/filea...07/TTE_SwissAirForce_confidential_release.pdf

SonntagsZeitung |�Gripen: Sechsmal Note ungenügend

Rafale News: Switzerland, Evaluation report quick analysis

 

[hello_10]

The more the number of Rafales sold. The more is the benefit for India.

Hope they clinch the UAE and Brazil deals quickly. Qatar and Kuwait will fall in line after that. The French armed forces will be allowed to increase their Rafale numbers as well.

here, with regard to the news as below also, apart from the 'comparative' superiority of Rafale w.r.t. other participants of MRCA, we again remember that price of Rafale comes around $200mil in fact, if we add training+infrastructure costs etc, along with $18bil+ for 126 aircraft only. while Mig35 is hardly for $70mil, including arms/missiles too in this price, and no need of training as pilots are already trained on Mig29s, with already existing infrastructure of Mig29s too, just little upgrade would be needed if India goes for Mig35 (Mig29VOT)..... :ranger:

and with any criterion, we do know that 2 Mig35 >>>> Rafale F3+

(while $200mil is enough for in fact 3 Mig35s. which only has bit more maintenance cost.....)

thats why I said before that its manufacture does need to be offering it with the best price and with the most advanced version of it, to make it worth paying $18bil+ Infrastructure+Training costs etc, for hardly 126 aircraft. along with this news of 63 more too, means at least $8.0billions extra this way, and hence complete engagement of India with this project this way :thumb:

even rich Arabs find it expansive

Rafale is too expensive

"It is a matter of price". This is what French President Francois Hollande said regarding a possible Rafale sell to the UAE. Hollande was in the country today to meet UAE authorities and discuss about the ongoing crisis in Mali as well as possible commercial deals.

In other words the UAE would still be interested in the French fighter jet and its technology, but reject the price asked by Dassault. In the meatime they are also considering the Eurofighter and the F/A-18E as possible alternatives.

Rafale News: EAU, Rafale is too expensive

 

[Yusuf]

The Typhoon is even more expensive than the Rafale. Saudis bought so many if them.

 

[hello_10]

The Typhoon is even more expensive than the Rafale. Saudis bought so many if them.

Typhoon wasn't really in the context, as its mainly for Air Superiority role for what India already has SU30mki. Typhoon has very poor A2G performance until they successfully upgrade it, as per the news we have in the market.....

on the top of that, its more expansive than Rafale, more than 4 suppliers including Brits, means tough to talk to 4-5 sides for one deal etc.... while Rafale has only one manufacture, France, including its engine too. you need to talk to just one person for this high end Multi-Role Aircraft. whatever tech transfer occurs, it will be negotiated with just one side, including any type of future upgrades etc, will be done with just one country etc. and these certain things were more of concern......

(with that, for Example I said about Brits, who made the most noise when they lost this project while EFT Typhoon is mainly a German aircraft with having its production line in UK too. along with enough problems from these NATO members, who will always look on this project in terms of strategic advantages/disadvantages, which is not the issue with the French. we do know that France was the only European country which said nothing during the Indian nuclear test in 1998, means we do understand that their national interests are not associated with what India does to protect its own national interests :thumb:...)

 

[Defcon 1]

Typhoon wasn't really in the context, as its mainly for Air Superiority role for what India already has SU30mki. Typhoon has very poor A2G performance until they successfully upgrade it, as per the news we have in the market.....

on the top of that, its more expansive than Rafale, more than 4 suppliers including Brits, means tough to talk to 4-5 sides for one deal etc.... while Rafale has only one manufacture, France, including its engine too. you need to talk to just one person for this high end Multi-Role Aircraft. whatever tech transfer occurs, it will be negotiated with just one side, including any type of future upgrades etc, will be done with just one country etc. and these certain things were more of concern......

(with that, for Example I said about Brits, who made the most noise when they lost this project while EFT Typhoon is mainly a German aircraft with having its production line in UK too. along with enough problems from these NATO members, who will always look on this project in terms of strategic advantages/disadvantages, which is not the issue with the French. we do know that France was the only European country which said nothing during the Indian nuclear test in 1998, means we do understand that their national interests are not associated with what India does to protect its own national interests :thumb:...)

You said that Rafale's 18billion cost for 126 aircraft is expensive even for Arabs. What he is actually saying is that if Rafale is expensive, Typhoon is even more expensive, and yet Arabs bought it. So, probably Rafale is not as expensive as you claim. We will know the actual value only after the deal is signed.

 

[hello_10]

You said that Rafale's 18billion cost for 126 aircraft is expensive even for Arabs. What he is actually saying is that if Rafale is expensive, Typhoon is even more expensive, and yet Arabs bought it. So, probably Rafale is not as expensive as you claim. We will know the actual value only after the deal is signed.

sir its all mixed up, for example of F15 of Saudi Arabia, and F16s of Turkey, their air force is trained on these aircrafts, already existing infrastructure etc. i mean, Turkey won't go for F15 or Eurofighter and Saudi won't go for anything other than F15 on this certain terms. it takes over 10 years for an airforce to get trained, properly induct an aircraft..........

with that, Eurufighter is fit in comparison with Rafale if a certain country doesn't have Air Superiority aircraft, which would hopefully improve its A2g capabilities in future too. I mean, I would favor Su35bm for Brazil as they dont have this type but for India I favor Rafale as it already has Su30mki which is now going to be Super Sukhoi standard too....

with that, most of the Arab nations dont have technological competency, and they are easily falling on the hands of NATO. for example of their firm support for the wars, US organize in that region one by one. Arabs generally have to do what they are ordered from West, along with whatever the best they may do for their nation too. (and hence Saudis went for EFT Typhoon this way, while they already have F15s......) while India has to think for its own nation only, regardless workers of Eurofighters get pay or not, its Mr Cameron who will have to provide welfare to them ....

 

[hello_10]

the news below confirms its price around $20billions for hardly 126 aircrafts, "to date", which may even rise to $27billions at the end

first we have estimate too that it would around $20billions, no less on any criterion, + training + infrastructure etc too. from here, even if you say Rafale would cost $120mil, around, while being manufactured in India, then it will be true for the last 63 order on this price, similar to how India is buying Su30mki right now. as, the last 63 Rafale will have got a matured production line in India, full infrastructure and training etc too, with as many as you may produce with lesser labor cost of India.......

but the very first 126 Rafale have the price tag of $20billions "to date", and how much will it go up, we aren't sure yet. don't forget that if Scorpion Submarines deal for Project75 was signed for hardly $2.1billions then it was its price in 2004. but now its well above $5.0billions for the same number then its today's price while the supply is delayed by at least 4 years "to date". thats why IN is willing for at least 9, i read somewhere, as when production line gets matured then get its benefit. :thumb:
Rafale is undoubtedly the best choice for M-MRCA, but how much will it cost, its on the table

Detail lies in hidden costs

Rafale may have won the contest for the supply of Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft to India, but there's a strong possibility that we will end up paying far, far more than the bid amount. It appears that Rafale had quoted an unrealistically low amount to win the contract

After Rafale won India's Multi-Role Fighter aircraft contest in February this year and the deadline given to its manufactures Dassault to submit the final documents expired last week, one would think that having no international orders since its first flight 21 years back, Dassault would have bent over backwards and produced the required documentation in time. But nothing was submitted. Behind this simple lapse lies a very complex story — one that should make every Indian taxpayer pay much more attention to how the Defence Ministry spends its money.

The Rafale story has just one ending: India will not receive even half the technology that was promised by Dassault in the company's "100 per cent" claim, and the cost of the plane is likely to escalate by well over 100 per cent, by conservative estimates.

The Defence Ministry's think-tank, the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses, was the first to defend the missed deadline — variously claiming mischief, pointing to interested parties, and then going on to assert that no matter what the delays or cost, Rafale's induction was a national priority. It gave a whole host of bogus reasons and cyclic logic that only a Government servant could think up. Ultimately this is the same line used to defend the disastrous NREGA scheme where 'need' trumps demonstrated failure.

There is a very sound logic to the delay. Having underpriced the Rafale in the initial bidding, France has no option but to look for ways of cost escalation in order to make a profit. This is exactly what happened with the Scorpene submarines and the Russian Gorshkov carrier, which were offered at ludicrously low prices, precisely to pre-empt the competition, and since then have seen anywhere between 200 and 2000 per cent escalation. One would reckon that with a 2000 per cent budgetary overshoot at the Defence Ministry, some babu's heads would roll or at the very least some lessons would have been learnt? Evidently not. At some point, some one really needs to have a long hard look at whether the IAS officers— like all products of standards tests, truly are as monumentally incompetent as their actions reveal or if, in fact, this is graft masquerading around as ineptitude and shielded by a lack of accountability.

While the IDSA was busy defending the deal, a little known French publication was spilling the beans, pretty much predicting the course of the entire Rafale procurement. L'usine nouvelle reported that Dassault was now convinced that India did not have the technological expertise to indigenise the Rafale's production and well over 50 per cent of the production would remain in France — including the all-important Active Electronically Scanned Array radar. Evidently in the five years that the Medium Multi-Role Combat Airraft competition dragged on, France did not see this deficiency — promising us a full 100 per cent technology transfer. Even at that time the high foreign content of the Rafale was deliberately concealed, especially the seven per cent of it which comes under the US International Traffic in Arms Regulations controls, which means India, will not even be allowed to open the boxes in which those components are housed. Now, within six months of winning the contract based on such promises they have already determined that India cannot cope with such advanced 21-year-old technology.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and Defence Research and Development Organisation are typical socialist enterprises — not required to perform, they merely provide useless employment for the uselessly educated. Since there are no guidelines or timeframes for research translating into tangible products, they are yet to produce a single operational weapons system. Their research and development being done without competent market research, much of their attention is diverted to answering questions no one asked.

The deciding factor that won the Rafale the competition was its lower cost. Even a cursory glance at the Rafale's costing for the French Senate done in 2009 indicated a unit price 2.25 times of what the French quoted us, not factoring in inflation. Now given that all this knowledge was public, when quality control is highly suspect, when your grocer sells you 'premium basmati' at 1/3rd the market price, it takes a real specimen to not step back and ask, "Why"? Even after costing the country a full 2000 per cent in hidden costs over the Gorshkov, evidently South Block mandarins do not involve themselves in such trivial details so long as they get their D1 flats, Gymkhana memberships and chauffeur-driven cars. Honestly living that life you could be excused for thinking public money grows on trees.

What can one expect from here? Four things: First, Dassault's final submission will take much longer to materialise — possibly another year or so. Second, a stream of news reports that we've already heard a thousand times before will come out telling us how unprepared our institutions are to receive this technology. Third, when that document from Dassault does indeed materialise, expect a minimum 170 per cent jump in costs attributed to "time delay", "unforeseen problems" and "supply chain variables". Let's not forget that, when this competition started out in 2007 the deal was meant to cost us $10.6 billion. 'Now' the figure has already doubled to $20 billion, while any intelligent person who bothered studying the publicly available costs would have fixed the price at $27 billion as far back as 2009. Finally, India will not achieve self-sufficiency in combat aviation any time this century — after all, if standardised tests produce bureaucrats this daft, HAL and DRDO's similarly standardised test scientists can hardly be expected to be much better?

At some point, one needs to introspect very deeply. This is a complex societal matrix of woe combining a broken education system, a complete lack of governance, a total lack of accountability, institutional collapse, a worrying lack of innovation, introspection and self-correction all leading up to near total intellectual ossification. And you think simplistic solutions like the Lokpal would work?

Detail lies in hidden costs

 

[hello_10]

hence with the ongoing talk for this prime aircraft, we have news that Russia would buy around 50 Mig35 and we hope for the same number in India too :ranger:

India gotto retire its aging Mig21s and it already has full infrastructure, training etc on the Mig29s, already buying Mig29k too for its newest AC, which clearly means that IN is very satisfied with Mig29Ks...... Mig35 (Mig29VOT) is the most advanced version of Mig29, with AESA radar etc, for the price hardly at $50mil+, a front line 4++ aircraft and among the mostly tested 4th generation aircraft.... we do hope for a batch of at least 50 Mig35 for IAF :thumb:

MiG Corporation first officially presented the MiG-35 internationally during the Aero India 2007 air show.[4] The MiG-35 was officially unveiled when the Russian Minister of Defence, Sergey Ivanov, visited Lukhovitsky Machine Building Plant "MAPO-MIG".[5] The single seat version is designated MiG-35 and the two-seat version is MiG-35D. The fighter has vastly improved avionics and weapon systems, notably the new AESA radar and the uniquely designed Optical Locator System (OLS), relieves the aircraft from relying on ground-controlled interception (GCI) systems and enables it to conduct independent multi-role missions.

Mikoyan MiG-35 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The MiG-35 is a descendant of the above-mentioned MiG-29K in many respects. India had no qualms about buying the MiG-29K. In fact, the Indian Navy has ordered 45 of these fighters to date. Of this number, 16 MiG-29Ks have already been shipped to India. At any rate, the production MiG-29K is not as good as the well-known Su-30MKI, which is quite popular in India.

However, the MiG-35 has been and remains substandard. The three MiG-35s being used for demonstration purposes are, in fact, a "flying offer" for prospective clients who must submit a request for proposal (RFP) in line with specific objectives.

Under the state arms procurement program through 2020, the Russian Air Force is to buy an estimated 50 MiG-35 fighter planes or so. However, the specifications and performance of the domestic fighter, due to be adopted by the country's air force, have not been clarified to date.

Setbacks for New Russian Fighter Plane in India | Features & Opinion | RIA Novosti

 

[p2prada]

According to official news, there was a 25% difference in price between Rafale and EF. That by itself is quite large.

Saudis paid around $8Billion for 72 aircraft. Of course there would be cost escalations for the last batch of 48 aircraft since 2006, but it should reflect what was offered to India.

If Saudis paid 8 Billion for 72, at around $111Million per aircraft, then we may have received a bid for around $120Million a bird. For 126 birds that would be around $15Billion.

Now if we assume Rafales were 25% lesser then EAD's bid, that would be around $11-12Billion. 126 aircraft at 12 Bill would mean 63 aircraft for 6 Bill. So with options the cost would go up to $18Billion for 189 aircraft. Add $2Billion for the heck of it. So, inflation and any additional costs like ToT is taken care of even though we had the benefit of having a more competitive deal than the Saudi deal which was done without a tender.

This estimate would say the cost wouldn't exceed $20Billion for all 189 aircraft. So, what's the problem here? $20Billion itself is a huge amount for Rafales. It would actually be considerably lesser overall.

About the Mig-35. It is just a prototype. IAF doesn't place its bets on prototypes, the same with Gripen NG. This isn't the case with just India. It is so all over the world.

 

[Anoop Sajwan]

Main thing about RAFALE win is that IAF already have too much infrastructure for it. So cost difference between these two plane even exceeded mainly in weapon side.

 

[SilentKiller]

why should we exercise the additional option now itself?

anyway the additional order will be carried out only after the initial order.
i was thinking additional batch we could buy semi stealth version later. why thew hurry?

Lets wait and see,
whom the contract will favour---- DASSAULT, asking for more work share
or RELIANCE + HAL to kick start private industry?

i hope atleast one of the above is the basis, so that RAFALE will get inducted faster in IAF.

involve private players as it will bring down cost and HAL will have completion which is good and in turn quality and quantity in production will increase.

 

[vram]

A Lot of people seem to be asking for private participation. While this in itself is desirable as the pool or resource in defence sector will increase.. the expectation that a private company whether it is TATA or reliance will be able to do a better job than HAL in field where there are utterly new sounds a bit un-realistic. Even with decades of assembling experience it took Tata MO CO a hell of lot of time to bring a fairly decent passenger car out of their production lines. And more over outside of HAL where are the people with the necessary skillset to setup,operate and man these production lines??


New products in Defence requires a lot of overhead research and intellectual property build up before any truly innovative product can be brought out as most countries keep defence related IP secure for a long time.

 

[hello_10]

According to official news, there was a 25% difference in price between Rafale and EF. That by itself is quite large.

Saudis paid around $8Billion for 72 aircraft. Of course there would be cost escalations for the last batch of 48 aircraft since 2006, but it should reflect what was offered to India.

If Saudis paid 8 Billion for 72, at around $111Million per aircraft, then we may have received a bid for around $120Million a bird. For 126 birds that would be around $15Billion.

Now if we assume Rafales were 25% lesser then EAD's bid, that would be around $11-12Billion. 126 aircraft at 12 Bill would mean 63 aircraft for 6 Bill. So with options the cost would go up to $18Billion for 189 aircraft. Add $2Billion for the heck of it. So, inflation and any additional costs like ToT is taken care of even though we had the benefit of having a more competitive deal than the Saudi deal which was done without a tender.

This estimate would say the cost wouldn't exceed $20Billion for all 189 aircraft. So, what's the problem here? $20Billion itself is a huge amount for Rafales. It would actually be considerably lesser overall.

About the Mig-35. It is just a prototype. IAF doesn't place its bets on prototypes, the same with Gripen NG. This isn't the case with just India. It is so all over the world.

sir if IAF opted for Rafale then its because they are looking for a Top Gun, which may do the work which may not be possible from even PAK FA also for A2G roles. it has highest voting for Dog Fight with high end A2G roles etc too. Paying around $150mil each for Rafale is meant for a Top Gun which would be equally valued as PAK FA in future, and outperform its 4++ rival in A2A combat too, along with performing high end A2G roles which is not possible from SU30mki, as its A2G role is of secondary purpose......

when we talk about Mig35 then its about an aircraft which is superior to any of the India neighbor's aircraft, whether F16 or J10, and may also do the same work, more or less, for the price at hardly $50mil. but when we talk about Rafale then its about something which may exceed the performance of all the Multi Role Aircraft of the today's world, along with working with SU30mki, a high end Air Superiority Aircraft too. Rafale is meant to deal with that circumstance when you may face 200-300 4th generation aircraft altogether and one bird may engage 3-4 at the same time, which is not easy with Mig35, true. and thats why IAF is willing to pay a high price for it, but how much will it really be at the end, its on the table :thumb:

 

[p2prada]

when we talk about Mig35 then its about an aircraft which is superior to any of the India neighbor's aircraft, whether F16 or J10, and may also do the same work, more or less, for the price at hardly $50mil. but when we talk about Rafale then its about something which may exceed the performance of all the Multi Role Aircraft of the today's world, along with working with SU30mki, a high end Air Superiority Aircraft too. Rafale is meant to deal with that circumstance when you may face 200-300 4th generation aircraft altogether and one bird may engage 3-4 at the same time, which is not easy with Mig35, true. and thats why IAF is willing to pay a high price for it, but how much will it really be at the end, its on the table :thumb:

Mig-35 has a lot of bang for the buck. If the MRCA was solely decided on costs, like the Swiss deal, then this would be MIGs to win.

Mig-35 is capable of multiple target engagement. It's not like only Rafale can do it. Actually all birds in the MRCA can do it.

Rafale can't be expected to be anywhere close to the PAKFA/FGFA in most parameters.

As for costs, Rafale will definitely cost more than an upgraded MKI, in terms of acquisition as well as lifecycle costs.

 

[hello_10]

Mig-35 has a lot of bang for the buck. If the MRCA was solely decided on costs, like the Swiss deal, then this would be MIGs to win. ::thumb:

Mig-35 is capable of multiple target engagement. It's not like only Rafale can do it. Actually all birds in the MRCA can do it.

Rafale can't be expected to be anywhere close to the PAKFA/FGFA in most parameters.

As for costs, Rafale will definitely cost more than an upgraded MKI, in terms of acquisition as well as lifecycle costs.

your post is very close to the ground reality....:thumb:

I only meant to say that even if PAK FA is a generation ahead than Rafale, for the price hardly around $120mil, we do know that Rafale is considered as the best 4th gen 'Multi Role' aircraft, among the rest of 4++ aircraft. and as I favor buying at least 50 Mig35, my last post was only meant to say that the selected aircraft for this MRCA is not a wrong selection. as, there is no need to make noise if we know that Rafale has gone through the next round... :ranger:

right now IN is buying Mig29Ks for its newest AC then its because they are very impressed with this bird. and Mig35 is the most adavnced version of it, which is unmatched with any aircraft of India's neighbors, whether F16 block52 or J10b (the upgraded J10, hopefully), Mig35 is undoubtly suprior to these Top Guns of China, Pakistan for a very less price....:thumb:

 

[hello_10]

Rafale Vs 5th gen aircrafts during 2020+

with that, we do know that, when India signed for Scorpion Submarines in 2004, its price was $2.1billions that time and now its well over $5.0billions with 4 years delay, 'to date', as it is its current price.... we expect Rafale F3+ to cost around $160mil to 200mil, hopefully no more than that, and it should be the best we may expect if we include infrastructure + training cost etc too....

but the main question we have here, how will it really perform in his time at 2020+, which will belong to 5th generation aircraft???? while PAK FA/ FGFA would also cost around $120mil only? will it be worth for the price for $160mil to $200mil, or, its a waste during the time of 5th generation aircrafts, since 2020+????

The deciding factor that won the Rafale the competition was its lower cost. Even a cursory glance at the Rafale's costing for the French Senate done in 2009 indicated a unit price 2.25 times of what the French quoted us, not factoring in inflation. Now given that all this knowledge was public, when quality control is highly suspect, when your grocer sells you 'premium basmati' at 1/3rd the market price, it takes a real specimen to not step back and ask, "Why"? Even after costing the country a full 2000 per cent in hidden costs over the Gorshkov, evidently South Block mandarins do not involve themselves in such trivial details so long as they get their D1 flats, Gymkhana memberships and chauffeur-driven cars. Honestly living that life you could be excused for thinking public money grows on trees.

What can one expect from here? Four things: First, Dassault's final submission will take much longer to materialise — possibly another year or so. Second, a stream of news reports that we've already heard a thousand times before will come out telling us how unprepared our institutions are to receive this technology. Third, when that document from Dassault does indeed materialise, expect a minimum 170 per cent jump in costs attributed to "time delay", "unforeseen problems" and "supply chain variables". Let's not forget that, when this competition started out in 2007 the deal was meant to cost us $10.6 billion. 'Now' the figure has already doubled to $20 billion, while any intelligent person who bothered studying the publicly available costs would have fixed the price at $27 billion as far back as 2009.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/item/52381-detail-lies-in-hidden-costs.html

 

[p2prada]

Scorpene was an entirely different issue. The delays meant re-negotiation of the deal. The delay was way beyond 4 years. The costs also include doubling the capacity of the production line in order to deliver all the subs by 2017 and including AIP for the last few subs.

Rafale's air to air prowess against aircraft like PAKFA and J-20 should be obsolete, but there is plenty of time before either aircraft become a threat. But Rafale's air to ground capabilities should continue to be robust. Anyway, a 4.5th gen aircraft like Rafale being inducted before 2020 should do well. It will be at least 2030 before our enemies would have 5th gen aircraft in good numbers and that's when we will be inducting both FGFA and AMCA. So there is no issue where IAF is concerned because we will be getting our most advanced 4.5th gen aircraft before the decade ends and jump to 5th gen early next decade. It will be countries like Sweden, Germany and France who have to be worried about it since there are no 5th gen equivalents for them.

The article you posted about Rafale's cost being 2.5 times more is misleading. In the French Senate they mentioned the program costs, not the unit costs. Units costs for Rafale are a little over 100 Million Euros. Not sure if this is fly away cost or anything else included.

The entire package for a single Rafale came at around 200 Million Euros for Switzerland. But that's for 18 aircraft. Gripen came at 150 Million Euros. For a large ticket deal like India's the prices would be considerably lesser + the fact that nearly all of them are to be assembled in India thereby reducing costs followed by manufacturing of spares in India for IAF, maybe even ALA.

A Block 52 F-16 signed in 2005 came at $80Million for the PAF. So, a 4.5th gen with all the bells and whistles at double the price, including training and maintenance, seems fine. But if we are comparing unit costs, with ToT and industrial production, all 189 Rafales should come below $20Billion.

MKI will continue to be our cheapest aircraft and will follow after the LCA in operational costs.

 

[Armand2REP]

Mig-35 has a lot of bang for the buck. If the MRCA was solely decided on costs, like the Swiss deal, then this would be MIGs to win.

Mig-35 is capable of multiple target engagement. It's not like only Rafale can do it. Actually all birds in the MRCA can do it.

Rafale can't be expected to be anywhere close to the PAKFA/FGFA in most parameters.

As for costs, Rafale will definitely cost more than an upgraded MKI, in terms of acquisition as well as lifecycle costs.

MiG-35 couldn't even track assigned air targets much less implement multi-radar functions. Just come to terms, IAF wanted a true and tested multi-role plane, not paper airplanes. They couldn't even do better than bringing a MiG-29. MiG-35 doesn't even exist.