Know Your 'Rafale'

BON PLAN

-*-
New Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
6,510
Likes
7,217
Country flag
Definitely among the reasons for French on-boarding us onto their next gen engine program


FCAS warplane program stalls, as Dassault and Airbus fail to reach key industry deal


STUTTGART, Germany – One of Europe’s key weapon developments has stalled as the prime contractors have failed to reach agreement on the path forward, a top industry official said Friday.

The trinational Future Combat Air System (FCAS) program — intended to provide a swath of new military capabilities to France, Germany, and Spain by 2040 – has yet to enter its research-and-development phase, and risks falling behind schedule if the industry partners cannot compromise on key workshare allowances.

Two of the three prime contractors, Airbus and Dassault, haven’t reached a deal to launch the R&D-related Phase 1B that would lead to a prototype fighter jet by 2027, said Dassault CEO Eric Trappier in a Friday earnings meeting.

“We have done everything possible to sign with Airbus, and I’m waiting for Airbus’ signature,” he said. “The problem is on the other side of the Rhine.”

The Phase 1B contract has been prepared by the French military procurement agency Direction générale de l’armement (DGA), “and we are waiting for Airbus to sign… which is not the case right now,” Trappier said. Dassault is leading France’s industry participation in the FCAS program, while Airbus represents Germany and Indra represents Spain. Indra, who leads Spain’s industry participation in the FCAS program, declined to comment on Friday.

The negotiations, which have dragged on for months now, risk bringing the program to a complete standstill. “There is a moment where we say ‘yes,’ or we say ‘no,’” Trappier continued. “In my opinion, this has gone on a bit too long.”

Per Trappier, the dispute rests on Dassault’s role as the lead for the Next-Generation Fighter element. The program is separated into seven technology “pillars,” each of which is led by a specific company, with subcontractors contributing as well. Dassault is responsible for the new fighter jet, while Airbus leads the “loyal wingman” remote-carrier drone design, along with new cloud capabilities and stealth technologies. Indra leads the sensor systems pillar, while Safran is building a new jet engine for the fighter.

“Dassault should be the leader and the main contractor” for the fighter jet, Trappier said. “Additional requests were introduced to support this program; I said that there was a red line not to be crossed.”

According to Airbus, the kerfuffle boils down to fairness.

“We have managed months ago to find fair and balanced agreements on all 6 other pillars, where even under a defined leadership the competence and capacities of each partner are respected and can participate in an equitable manner,” a spokesman told Defense News. “Airbus has made several proposals to converge also on the Next Generation Fighter (NGF) and we are supporting any solution which will respect both the skills of each partner and the lead role of Dassault Aviation, leading to a fair agreement. We are confident that a resolution can be achieved if the rules of the cooperation agreed by the nations are respected in the NGF, as it is the case on other pillars.”

The program’s stakeholders have long awaited this industry contract. The German, French, and Spanish defense ministers reached their own trinational agreement last summer, which formalized the nations’ funding commitments through Phase 1B and 2, culminating in an initial prototype by 2027. In an Aug. 31 tweet lauding the deal, the German Defense Ministry pointedly said: “Now it’s industry’s turn – come to an agreement.”

The ongoing delay risks pushing back the delivery schedule for the new fighter jet. Meanwhile, Dassault engineers who were due to work on the demonstrator phase have been redeployed elsewhere in the company, Trappier said. They will return to the FCAS program if and when the contract is signed.

“I know they are eager to design an NGF demonstrator,” he said.

The trinational program isn’t the only source of tension between France and Germany at the moment. Reports have emerged that Berlin is once again considering buying U.S.-made F-35 Joint Strike Fighters as it phases out its aging Tornado fleet, and new Chancellor Olaf Scholz recently announced plans for Germany to invest 100 billion euro (U.S. $110 billion) into its defense.

Trappier, who is also the current president of the French Aerospace Industries Association (GIFAS), said Friday that he is “convinced” Germany will choose the F-35, as it had previously desired. He claimed the Germans are being pressured by the U.S. to use F-35s for their nuclear mission, even as Berlin pays lip service to the need to “Buy European.”

“We will see with our number-one partner, which is Germany, whether the first decision they make [after investing 100 billion euros] is to sign the FCAS contract, or to buy the F-35,” he said.

The germans would be very inspired to think about Rafale/EF2000 saga...
The 4 country failed to find a common solution. The french go alone and at the end two fighters : an average and costly one (EF2000) and a lighter, more affordable and successfull one (Rafale).
 

WolfPack86

New Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
10,571
Likes
16,993
Country flag
India pitches with France to become Rafale maintenance hub
India has pitched with France to become a hub for maintenance, repair, and overhaul (MRO) for Rafale fighter jets.

This comes even as last month Indonesia entered into a deal with France to buy 42 Rafale Jets and UAE signed a deal to buy 80 of the fighter jets In December 2021.

India had signed a deal with France in 2016 to get 36 Rafale jets, of which 33 have been delivered. This makes countries in the region have these France made fighter jets.

The Indian proposal comes amid the government's Atmanirbhar Bharat policy under which local manufacturing of defense equipment has been the focus. During the visit of French Defence Minister Florence Parly, both sides had discussed joint manufacture of aero engines in India.

At an event of an Industry chamber, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh had announced that ''a big French company will manufacture an engine in India...in collaboration with an Indian company''.

India and France have a robust defense relationship, from annual ministerial-level defence dialogue to regular defense exercises of the three services. The Indian Navy also participated in the French-led La Pérouse exercise, along with other Quad members from 5 to 7 April 2021.

And not just for French Rafales, India is focusing on Jewar-Noida International Airport to be a large MRO hub. Indian Prime Minister Naredra Modi had laid the foundation of the airport in a grand ceremony in November 2021. It is touted to become India's largest airport.
 

BON PLAN

-*-
New Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
6,510
Likes
7,217
Country flag
According to a french serious economic newspaper, Egypt is in touch with France to purchase Barracuda SSK, a carrier and some Rafale M !

 
Joined
Sep 8, 2020
Messages
3,737
Likes
22,507
Country flag
According to a french serious economic newspaper, Egypt is in touch with France to purchase Barracuda SSK, a carrier and some Rafale M !

Where are they gonna operate Rafale M from??
Surely not from Mistrals.
 

Poseidon

New Member
Joined
May 28, 2011
Messages
2,009
Likes
6,487
Country flag
Paki Air Force chief claims they now have First Shot BVR capability thanks to J-10C and PL-15.
Is it true or another desperate brain fart?
Is PL-15 really better than Meteor as the Paki claims?
 

India Super Power

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Oct 3, 2020
Messages
2,190
Likes
4,386
Country flag
Paki Air Force chief claims they now have First Shot BVR capability thanks to J-10C and PL-15.
Is it true or another desperate brain fart?
Is PL-15 really better than Meteor as the Paki claims?
Bro this is where they lead us that is spread such a propaganda that even a knowledgeable person tends to believe it
Meteor and PL-15 are two different types of missile with different operating way and different advantages
But solid fuel ducted Ramjet is a very advanced technology than dual pulse rocket motor it's just to increase the range of a normal bvr missile but no such increase in nez compared to sfdr
 

BON PLAN

-*-
New Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
6,510
Likes
7,217
Country flag
Paki Air Force chief claims they now have First Shot BVR capability thanks to J-10C and PL-15.
Is it true or another desperate brain fart?
Is PL-15 really better than Meteor as the Paki claims?
First J10C had been delivered.
PL-15 is in the same weight class than Meteor, but use classical powder booster. Even with a 2 stages booster, it has to carry oxidizer and fuel when Meteor use the air as oxidizer, so carry more fuel (because no oxidizer in it)=> Meteor has a greater range (for a same weight class !).
 

no smoking

New Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
5,057
Likes
2,353
Country flag
First J10C had been delivered.
PL-15 is in the same weight class than Meteor, but use classical powder booster. Even with a 2 stages booster, it has to carry oxidizer and fuel when Meteor use the air as oxidizer, so carry more fuel (because no oxidizer in it)=> Meteor has a greater range (for a same weight class !).
That is right.
But Meteor has its own disadvantage: when it is doing the extreme maneuvering, the air inflow volume will keep changing which affect its engine's efficiency. As a result, its capability of handling the high maneuvering fight jet is limited comparing to the traditional rocket engine missile.
 

OnePunchMan

New Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
500
Likes
3,134
Country flag
That is right.
But Meteor has its own disadvantage: when it is doing the extreme maneuvering, the air inflow volume will keep changing which affect its engine's efficiency. As a result, its capability of handling the high maneuvering fight jet is limited comparing to the traditional rocket engine missile.
The end game for a BVR generally depends upon the kinetic energy rather than just high G maneuverability as in most cases BVR missiles come head on to the target , its quite different from what is required for the WVR missiles in close quarter FOX-2 combat so what you are saying is definitely true but its not significant enough for the massive advantage the ducted ramjet brings in terms on NEZ and range.
 
Last edited:

Wisemarko

New Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2016
Messages
1,320
Likes
2,609
Country flag
All Rafale are built with CFT capability. The first flight of a Rafale fitted with CFTs took place on April 18, 2001. But CFT also means less maneuvering, heavy and bigger RCS aircraft. Similarly, F-16 with CFT has considerable less performance than F-16A/B despite much more powerful engine.
All 4th generation fighters face these compromises.
 

Emperor Kalki

New Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2019
Messages
290
Likes
697
Country flag
That is right.
But Meteor has its own disadvantage: when it is doing the extreme maneuvering, the air inflow volume will keep changing which affect its engine's efficiency. As a result, its capability of handling the high maneuvering fight jet is limited comparing to the traditional rocket engine missile.
Seriously? :yawn:

We all know a rocket powered missile after its burnout relies entirely on its acquired kinetic energy in the end game, right?

And what do you think, that the ramjet powered one won't be having any kinetic energy right before any manoeuvre at all?
Even if there is any such inefficiency in the air intake as you claimed, the ramjet powered missile will have some thrust during the manoeuvre and proper thrust if it comes out of that manoeuvre to do another while the rocket powered one just bleeds its airspeed doing the same.
 

BON PLAN

-*-
New Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
6,510
Likes
7,217
Country flag

Picard

New Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2013
Messages
339
Likes
764
Country flag
America’s Sixth Generation Fighter Will Emphasise Electronic Warfare Prowess Over Stealth or Speed - Reports

It's a Rafale in fact.
And when I was talking about that years ago, people laughed...
 

Articles

Top