Know Your 'Rafale'

[THESIS THORON]

The conditions could reach 2100 Kelvin (1826.85 degrees Celsius) at the turbine inlet – 250 Kelvin (250 degrees Celsius) more than those of the M88. Current materials are not able to sustain such conditions.

cmc ??

btw, does m88 use dms4 ??

 

[MonaLazy]

cmc ??

btw, does m88 use dms4 ??

@BON PLAN @Picard @Karthi @Vamsi @SavageKing456 & others are better placed to answer that.

that is rumored to be heli engine not jet engine

But a rumour is just that- let's wait for defexpo for the announcement and details.

no body gives their prime tech to anyone,it is thier flagship engine why would they share something of it

All true- was responding to @Fonck83 on FCAS collab with AMCA- but AMCA is too far ahead in the development cycle for any realistic cooperation- only the future engine is about a decade away and that's one likely place where something may happen, if at all.

 

[Vamsi]

cmc ??

btw, does m88 use dms4 ??

DMS4 is our indigenous material. How will french M-88 use indian material for its core

 

[SARTHAK]

as far as engine is concerned i highly doubt any country will share its know how , more important is we aren't even funding GTRE for engine , a small investment and we expect a world class engine ,we sould invest heavily in R&D for engines and then results will churn out ,kaveri dry variant is the only visible outcome of kaveri project that has been starving for funds

 

[SavageKing456]

as far as engine is concerned i highly doubt any country will share its know how , more important is we aren't even funding GTRE for engine , a small investment and we expect a world class engine ,we sould invest heavily in R&D for engines and then results will churn out ,kaveri dry variant is the only visible outcome of kaveri project that has been starving for funds

Be it amca or engine program
Funds are required asap and govt is sleeping
Eventually even few countries who are behind us in gas turbine technology will move ahead of us simply because they had national objectives and well planned funding

 

[MonaLazy]

as far as engine is concerned i highly doubt any country will share its know how , more important is we aren't even funding GTRE for engine , a small investment and we expect a world class engine ,we sould invest heavily in R&D for engines and then results will churn out ,kaveri dry variant is the only visible outcome of kaveri project that has been starving for funds

What you say is absolutely true, but then there's this from Oct '19:

It talks about transfer of military aero engine design capabilities to GTRE (in other words hand holding, not spoon feeding) for co-development of aero engines for LCA & AMCA. LCA we have already sought French help with dry Kaveri but nature of collab with AMCA is unknown- may be India will develop the materials to withstand 1900 - 2?00K TET on her own but be able to design the new engine thanks to Safran's expertise. They can certainly help with durability, testing & certification.

From the above slide, the French have made it pretty clear they are interested in co-developing AMCA's engines for some cost- which must also have been conveyed to GoI. So it is not impossible.

 

[MonaLazy]

Be it amca or engine program
Funds are required asap and govt is sleeping
Eventually even few countries who are behind us in gas turbine technology will move ahead of us simply because they had national objectives and well planned funding

It is all milestone-based disbursement of funds, our labs failing to meet the criteria, from Apr 2017:

As it turns out, GTRE is yet to access some Rs 500 crore in funds that were approved years ago by New Delhi for aircraft integration work as part of the overall outlay for the Kaveri programme. Now that GTRE is looking to actually fly a Tejas test vehicle using a Kaveri engine, it is likely to write to the Centre to disburse this sum.

It seems GTRE will first incorporate Snecma’s recommended design changes onto three existing SoP Kaveri prototypes called K6, K8 and K9. These will be tested both on GTRE’s testbed and on a flying testbed at the Gromov Flight Research Institute in Russia.

After which, a few refined prototypes will be built that are likely to meet the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification’s (CEMILAC) reliability standards and receive certification for a limited number of flights on board a Tejas class aircraft.

One of these engines post-CEMILAC clearance will be integrated with a Tejas prototype and some 30-40 sorties will be conducted to demonstrate India’s ability to build a LBTF in the 70-80 KN class. GTRE expects to accomplish all this by Aero India 2019.

A big LOL at that timeline.

Foreign expertise key to fire up India's jets

While India has managed to create a fourth-generation jet fighter, it is yet to perfect a low-bypass...

www.deccanherald.com

 

[SARTHAK]

What you say is absolutely true, but then there's this from Oct '19:

View attachment 137326

It talks about transfer of military aero engine design capabilities to GTRE (in other words hand holding, not spoon feeding) for co-development of aero engines for LCA & AMCA. LCA we have already sought French help with dry Kaveri but nature of collab with AMCA is unknown- may be India will develop the materials to withstand 1900 - 2?00K TET on her own but be able to design the new engine thanks to Safran's expertise. They can certainly help with durability, testing & certification.

From the above slide, the French have made it pretty clear they are interested in co-developing AMCA's engines for some cost- which must also have been conveyed to GoI. So it is not impossible.

lets see what they offer ,the main issue is core technology i hope they offer it or we make it because without that amca will never be used to its true potential

 

[THESIS THORON]

DMS4 is our indigenous material. How will french M-88 use indian material for its core

i meant material like that

 

[johnj]

Indonesian Air Force Purchases 42 Dassault Rafale Multirole Fighter Aircrafts
Plzs quote the price if it is true

 

[johnj]

From net
Indonesia signed a contract with French company Dassault Aviation for 42 Rafale fighters. Indonesian Defense Minister Prabowo Subianto said the $8.1 billion deal was part of series of agreements also including submarine development.
Also, The United States greenlit the sale of 36 Boeing F-15ID aircraft to Indonesia for nearly $14 billion

 

[BON PLAN]

How Israel citizens fell about muslim UAE to nearly have the F35 ?
How Greek citizens felle about muslim Turkey have F16 ?
etc....

feel (and not fell or felle.... sorry)

 

[bhramos]

 

[Wisemarko]

India is celebrating because the ranking is about who got fleeced the most by the French.

 

[BON PLAN]

cmc ??

btw, does m88 use dms4 ??

What is "dms4" ?

 

[BON PLAN]

From net
Indonesia signed a contract with French company Dassault Aviation for 42 Rafale fighters. Indonesian Defense Minister Prabowo Subianto said the $8.1 billion deal was part of series of agreements also including submarine development.
Also, The United States greenlit the sale of 36 Boeing F-15ID aircraft to Indonesia for nearly $14 billion

Who said french fighters are costly ?

 

[BON PLAN]

 

[Love Charger]

View attachment 137786

No nation hyped it as much as we did

 

[BON PLAN]

France completes first engine test for its 6th generation fighter - AeroTime

The French General Directorate of Armaments (DGA) completed a first test for the development of the engine that will power the Future Combat Air System aircraft. The DGA announced on January 10, 2021, that a prototype derived from the M88, the engine of the Dassault Rafale fighter, was trialed...

www.aerotime.aero

France completes first engine test for its 6th generation fighter

The French General Directorate of Armaments (DGA) completed a first test for the development of the engine that will power the Future Combat Air System aircraft.
The DGA announced on January 10, 2021, that a prototype derived from the M88, the engine of the Dassault Rafale fighter, was trialed on a test bench as part of the Turenne defense technology project.
“This test is distinctive by the technique used, called Thermocolor, which requires heat-sensitive paint; applied to the blades of the engine's high-pressure turbine blades, it measures the temperature thanks to a color change,” the DGA explained. “This type of trial is very rare; the most recent at DGA Propellant Testing dates back to 2010.”
It took five years for the conditions to be ready for this experiment. Once the results of this first test are analyzed, the project will move on towards an “endurance” test that should last several months.
“Each of these advancements is a unique and necessary piece of a puzzle of technological innovation. Combined with a latest-generation engine, they will make it possible to achieve the level of performance expected from the SCAF program,” the DGA concluded.
According to the French Ministry of Armed Forces, the New Generation Fighter (NGF) sixth-generation fighter jet developed by France, Germany, and Spain in the framework of the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) will require more powerful engines than its predecessors.
Higher thrust means higher temperatures. The conditions could reach 2100 Kelvin (1826.85 degrees Celsius) at the turbine inlet – 250 Kelvin (250 degrees Celsius) more than those of the M88. Current materials are not able to sustain such conditions.
Consequently, the DGA along with the French national aerospace research center (ONERA), and the engine manufacturer Safran were contracted by the Ministry to accelerate the development of “new metal alloys and multilayer systems for high-temperature applications on turbine blades and disks”.

2100K TET (F-135 manages 2255K) is very impressive!

There is probably going to be some collaboration between this and AMCA's 110kN future jet engine, besides other items. But AMCA design is almost frozen so there may not be much of an overlap here.

View attachment 137304

HAL joins DRDO in building 5th-gen advanced combat aircraft

www.ajaishukla.com

France has agreed to jointly build aircraft engine: Rajnath

France has agreed to jointly build aircraft engine: Rajnath

He believes that Indian defence and aerospace manufacturing market will increase manifold.

www.thehindu.com

2100°K for next gen engine is only the first step of Turenne R&D effort. And it was on the agenda since some years.
The final plan is, if I remember well, to reach 2250°K and maybe 2300°K.

 

[Wisemarko]

2100°K for next gen engine is only the first step of Turenne R&D effort. And it was on the agenda since some years.
The final plan is, if I remember well, to reach 2250°K and maybe 2300°K.

P&W F-135 that powers F-35 has Turbine inlet temperature of 3,600 °F (1,980 °C; 2,260 K) that was in 2009.

"The F135 gas turbine is the first production jet engine in this new 3,600°F class, designed to withstand these highest, record-breaking turbine inlet temperatures."

Some catching up to do, may be?

Read more: this is 2007 article
https://asmedigitalcollection.asme....0/Fahrenheit-3-600Everywhere-You-Look-the-Gas