Kaveri Engine

[p2prada]

The technology for materials used and the know-how will be transferred. The way Scenma designs and integrates the M88 core with the Kaveri is not going to be shared.

It's not about money but the K10 would mean all the K9 people would be transferred to K10 project and K9 closed down, so if you want to manufacture a new engine outside of this project, then you will be stuck where we are today plus the knowledge gained from Snecma.

Why?

Materials and manufacturing process is everything. The way they designed it is completely unnecessary. Rather nobody needs it. The design and production cycle is 10-15 years. After that the design process and the tech used will be nearly obsolete. Currently we do not know where the engine will be designed and built. If everything will happen in India, then there is nothing to lose.

M53 and K-9 are obsolete engines. After the K-10 is developed, the M88-2/M88-4E will be obsolete. Similarly, by the time the K-10 is ready, its design process will be 10-15 years behind what will go in the latest engines of the time. Design process is evolutionary and changes over time with new advances in software and testing.

GTRE is a big organization. K-9 will have their own manpower and so will K-10. There are other engine developments happening too, right from tank engines to ship engines.

Like I said, it is unnecessary speculation.

 

[afako]

Why?

Materials and manufacturing process is everything. The way they designed it is completely unnecessary. Rather nobody needs it. The design and production cycle is 10-15 years. After that the design process and the tech used will be nearly obsolete. Currently we do not know where the engine will be designed and built. If everything will happen in India, then there is nothing to lose.

M53 and K-9 are obsolete engines. After the K-10 is developed, the M88-2/M88-4E will be obsolete. Similarly, by the time the K-10 is ready, its design process will be 10-15 years behind what will go in the latest engines of the time. Design process is evolutionary and changes over time with new advances in software and testing.

GTRE is a big organization. K-9 will have their own manpower and so will K-10. There are other engine developments happening too, right from tank engines to ship engines.

Like I said, it is unnecessary speculation.

That is only 50%. Even after learning to manufacture Su 30 MKI a 4.5th Generation fighter from raw material stage, why are we having to import the radar, engine and many critical parts for the LCA Mk2? According to your logic, if we manufactured a 4.5 Generation under TOT and license build, we should be able to build any 4.5 Generation fighter with the know-how gained from MKI.

We have only learnt to manufacture, not design it.

Snecma will design itself and provide us with the material knowledge:

DRDO sources confirm that Snecma will transfer several key technologies as part of the joint engine programme, which include single crystal blades, bladed disk and EBPVD (electron beam plasma vapour deposit coating), all critical areas that the Kaveri engine has failed to find solutions to within the country, though not for lack of trying

The fundamentals remain the same. Unless and unless we complete the curve of Kaveri by ourself, we will face the same issue if were to create a engine with a rating of say 150 Kn in the fututre.

Kaveri turbofan programme seeks extension - SP's Aviation

The joint effort, in effect, calls an end to the Kaveri K9 programme as it stands.

Almost the entire work force that has been dedicated so far to the Kaveri will be diverted to the K10 effort with Snecma

 

[ersakthivel]

The pointed question that will never be answered is whether russians have given us the single crystal tech to manufacture SUKHOI engine's engine blades from raw material stage in koraput ,Kanpur facility?

A big NO is the answer.

The GTRE chief himself has said that we don't have Single crystal blade tech in 2011 period.
The russians will supply the single crystal blades, and we will be making all other parts of the engine, which are pretty much not cutting edge knowledge.

If the russians have given us the tech to make Single crystal blade, it would have taken no time for GTRE to use the same tech to make blades for k-9 ,and increase it's thrust, and there will be no need for JV with snecma.

But some people are obfusicating this simple fact and implying that russians have already given Single crystal blade tech to us in sukhoi tot deal,and gtre is inept to use this Single crystal blade tech for K-9, a mind boggling accusation.

The JV with snecma is supposed to give us this Single crystal blade tech to gtre ,so that Single crystal blades wil be made here, different from the russian tot for SUKHOI.That is what being said in the open now ,but still there is no authoritative word on that.

There have also been unforeseen delays in the joint engine effort by DRDO and Snecma for a robust 90kN turbofan engine, based on the M88 ECO core and meeting the minimum performance requirements of the IAF and Navy. Negotiations on technology sharing and intellectual property have taken the better part of the two years, though a top official confirmed that a contract between DRDO and Snecma is likely to be signed within the year.The joint effort, in effect, calls an end to the Kaveri K9 programme as it stands. What it does is propose to quickly build a 90kN thrust turbofan and offer it off the block to the IAF and Navy for their Tejas Mk.1s. The Kaveri-Snecma engine, in twin configuration, could also power India's advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), though that is still well into the future.

DRDO sources confirm that Snecma will transfer several key technologies as part of the joint engine programme, which include single crystal blades, bladed disk and EBPVD (electron beam plasma vapour deposit coating), all critical areas that the Kaveri engine has failed to find solutions to within the country, though not for lack of trying. Programme managers believe single crystal blade technology will be a major solution to one of the Kaveri's biggest problems — deformation of blades during testing as a result of high ambient temperatures. This has proved to be a severe limiting factor, considering that structurally solidified blades have structural integrity that comes nowhere close to single crystal structures. According to sources, it is negotiations over the modalities for single crystal blade technology that has taken so long, though the end is finally in sight. Several DRDO labs and the MDNL have tried for years to create an indigenous SCT solution, but so far without success.

The tie up with Snecma will launch the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) into an all-new league, and will involve modern forging, welding and casting techniques for the first time. Unlike the Kaveri K9 programme, the K10 programme (the official designation for the proposed effort with Snecma) will be professionally monitored from the outset, with hard timelines and investments. The work share model has been hammered down, and scientists are confident that they have extracted a competitive contract from the French. Initial reservations about sharing certain technologies were ironed out following the slew of military contracts that went France's way, the last being the substantive Mirage 2000 H/TH upgrade programme.

Almost the entire work force that has been dedicated so far to the Kaveri [9] will be diverted to the K10 effort with Snecma. Scientists foresee challenges in absorbing the technology, but are confident that they will achieve goals once the contract is signed and the effort flagged off. A senior GTRE scientist says, "We have the will and the base technologies. We understand fully well what our shortcomings are, and are eager to deliver a full performance engine to the customer. Gone is the time when we can stay in the lab indefinitely saying we will come up with certain technologies by ourselves. The French will help us cut down on development time. And we will both deliver an engine that will power Indian aircraft. Everybody wins."

This is what was posted in one site regarding the snecma deal.

This is the purported difference between GTRE-SNECMA JV and russian TOT for SUKHOI Engine, yet no official confirmation..

 

[p2prada]

That is only 50%.

Hmm? What is? The JV?

Even after learning to manufacture Su 30 MKI a 4.5th Generation fighter from raw material stage, why are we having to import the radar, engine and many critical parts for the LCA Mk2? According to your logic, if we manufactured a 4.5 Generation under TOT and license build, we should be able to build any 4.5 Generation fighter with the know-how gained from MKI.

I had answered this many times before. LCA and MKI are independent programs under different companies. The ToT will not make it to the LCA program. Apart from that MKI ToT happened well after LCA was designed and produced. MKI ToT is also meant only for MKI and not LCA or any other program. That will go against IPR.

We have only learnt to manufacture, not design it.

That's what we paid for in the MKI program. The GTRE-Snecma JV, PAKFA JV etc are different.

Snecma will design itself and provide us with the material knowledge:

We need to wait and see. There is a chance everything will be designed from scratch in India itself.

The fundamentals remain the same. Unless and unless we complete the curve of Kaveri by ourself, we will face the same issue if were to create a engine with a rating of say 150 Kn in the fututre.

The article is wrong. Kaveri program ended the moment it was delinked from LCA. Now we can only make spin off products like UAV, tank and ship engines.

 

[ersakthivel]

If k_10 succeeds with 90 kn thrust,it will make it's way back into mk-1 lca tejas in two re engine shedules normal for any fighter.So it is not so dead I suppose.
Still there is no clarity regarding if ge-414 in tejas mk-2 regarding it will or will not be replaced in subsequent two engine changes with K-10 normaly sheduled for any fighter through out it's design life.
Whether it's possible to fit K-10 into LCA mk-II hasn't been conclusively answered.

For that the weight and form fit of both the K-10 and GE-4141 must be close enough.
Whether it will be or not is still not conclusively answered.
Weight is no problem as GE-414 weighs close to 1100 kgs almost the same as K-9.But form fit for k-10 is not yet clear.

K-10 will be just a french tech core with almost 90 percent of K-9 tech.So nothing is dead as yet,stuff only getting improved.
If projection for K-10 to be up and running in 5 years is true than it could not be a brand new engine at all, as no brand new engine can be up and running in 5 years time..

 

[Parrot]

Thank you Kunal for sharing the information regarding the Laghu Shakti engine. It makes me happy to learn that the Kaveri engine project is proving fruitful and giving us these options to develop other engines for other aircraft and applications.

Kunal you are right when you say that this engine could replace the AL-55I for the IJT Sitara.

In my thinking if this engine meets our specifications for the IJT Sitara we should just adopt it right away and reignite the IJT Sitara project to full throttle. This means that we don't have to pay for our engines to others. With our own homebuilt technology which we can modify and improve as it goes along. Unless we adopt it and use it we will never know the fruits of our labour and still be dependent on other countries for technology. Also importantly the engine will give us an ancillary industry for making specialized aeronautical engine parts. The spin off here too could lead to a revolution not only in further development in home grown technology but also as additional revenue in exports for specialized parts for different engine designs. Hence my belief that we should adopt the Laghu Shakti engine.

Please could anyone share if this could help our IJT Sitara project and further development of the Kaveri engine?:thumb:

 

[opesys]

I had answered this many times before. LCA and MKI are independent programs under different companies. The ToT will not make it to the LCA program. Apart from that MKI ToT happened well after LCA was designed and produced. MKI ToT is also meant only for MKI and not LCA or any other program. That will go against IPR.

The same logic should apply for K-10 program too.Meaning if the ToT is going to be only for K-10 then none of the knowledge gained by it can be used in a fully indigenous Kaveri progam (if K-9 were to be continued) , right ? Will this ToT be really useful in making progress in fully indigenous Kaveri program ?

 

[ersakthivel]

The same logic should apply for K-10 program too.Meaning if the ToT is going to be only for K-10 then none of the knowledge gained by it can be used in a fully indigenous Kaveri progam (if K-9 were to be continued) , right ? Will this ToT be really useful in making progress in fully indigenous Kaveri program ?

The difference here is we can use k-10 engine in lca,mk-1 or mk-2,or amca or any other fighter or trainer or aircraft.
Since the engine is ours we can use it wherever we want,The french too can use the same way.
issues regarding royalties are not clear now.But the french cannot ban it's use in another aircraft as it is pure engine level JV.
So if BLISK ,SINGLE CRYSTAL TECH,THERMOBARIC coating tech is transfered to india and 100 percent of the engine is made here from raw material stage ,there will be no restriction either in number or aircraft on which it can be used.That's the general understanding.
Still there is no official word that AL_31's single crystal blades are made here in koraput engine facility.
If some one gives authentic source the matter can be cleared.

But the AL-31FP cannot be used for another fighter.

 

[p2prada]

The same logic should apply for K-10 program too.Meaning if the ToT is going to be only for K-10 then none of the knowledge gained by it can be used in a fully indigenous Kaveri progam (if K-9 were to be continued) , right ? Will this ToT be really useful in making progress in fully indigenous Kaveri program ?

The K-9 is a little ok as of today. Regardless of the progress of the K-10, the K-9 will continue. K-9 will be developed well before K-10 prototype is made.

There could be a different project for the AURA though, and this may see input from K-9 and K-10 in a new K-9 derivative.

 

[ersakthivel]

While we can use twin K-10 for AMCA, however deep the TOT for sukhoi's engine or whether it is made from raw material stage, we cannot use it for another fighter as it is covered under exclusive license for SUKHOI.If there is anything to the contrary ,members can please post.

But K-10 can be used everywhere as it is not exclusively tied to one aircraft as it is engine level JV

 

[ersakthivel]

Don't get taken by simple engine thrust numbers.
It is the weight of the engine for the thrust produced and acceleration to reach the full military thrust that is important.
In this field it is yet to be proven that chinese have surpassed the french or even the indian k-9 standrads despite all the hoopala over the J-20/31.
As it is always easy to hide the engine weight figures and blindly state the thrust figure is a way to confuse people.

Unless one WS sits on the back of JF-17, you will never know.The RD-russian version tech sitting on the back of JF-17 is the proof at the moment of the chinese tech is not as good or as bad as the french.

After 20 years of research , GTRE kaveri produces about 75 kn at sea level.It weighs near 1100 kg or so.

our figure will reach TWR of close to 7 in our first indigenous attempts with no frequency related vibration testing facility and no high altitude test facility.The lack of these facilities resulted in a delay of over 4 years to solve the blade throwing problem.

With snecma collabaration a 90 kn thrust seems possible with further reduction in weight by 100 kgs as per some open source estimates.
So our figure will reach TWR of close to 9 for the jet engine.

It chinese members post these figures it will lead to more informed discussion.
If you want the figures for FRENCH you can ask any body it is 10.

The whole world knows about french engine tech with 2000 mirages exported world wide.

The IAF once anted add extra 126 mirages to it's fleet. So everyone here knows about the level of french engine tech.

Shenyang J-15 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The J-15 is reported to use different avionics and systems than the Su-33, and uses Chinese-developed technologies, and features various upgrades such as AESA radar, radar absorbent material, MAWS, IRST, composite, and new electronics.[15]

China Signpost believes the J-15 "likely exceeds or matches the aerodynamic capabilities of virtually all fighter aircraft currently operated by regional militaries, with the exception of the U.S. F-22 Raptor"[16], alleging that the J-15 possesses a 10% superior thrust to weight ratio and a 25% lower wing loading than the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet[16].

However, Hu Siyuan of the National Defense University PLA China has said that "the current weak point of the J-15 is its Russia-made Al-31 engines which are less powerful than that of the American F-35 fighter".[17]
This is the reality behind the bluster.

You can go here and see what the chinese are doing

http://airforceworld.com/pla/english...ter-china.html
And more in the above site,
Similarly Indians can put a fancy name on our SUKHOI-MKI and call it our total indigenous product.
but since it is a democracy, such frauds cannot be concealed here.


Shenyang WS-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to an interview publicised in January 2007 with J-10 pilot Li Cunbao (李存宝), the J-10 had not yet been equipped with the domestic WS-10 engine, because although the WS-10 could match the performance of its Russian counterpart (the AL-31), there was a serious drawback; the WS-10 took longer to "spool up", i.e. there was a delay in reaching the same thrust output as the Russian engine.

WS-10A is reported to have 13,200 kilograms (29,000 lb) of thrust and a 7.5:1 thrust-to-weight ratio, making it comparable to the AL-31F turbofan. The WS-10A was first displayed in public at the 2008 Zhuhai Air Show.
So it is no where near the french tech on rafale.
Infact despite all the hoopla over 13o kn engine ,it is infact in the same level of TWR relatimg to KAVERI-(K-9 version)

With this engine overweight J-20 is a sitting duck once it's stealth cover is blown

Atleast every one knows the k-9 has at last made this much progress concretely and high altitude trials in russia succeeded at this level of thrust.

The GTRE is asking for mating k-9 with tejas.
But no body is interested because these 7 level of TWr is practically not useful in military jet engines of today.

So we are going for a JV with snecma for close to 10 TWR level.

 

[ersakthivel]

the present k-9 weighs 1235 kg.But it is possible to reduce it's weight by 100 kg according to official sources.It is not done on k-9.Since it serves no purpose as k-9 is not going to enter into a combat plane.It is proposed to be done on k-10, so that this reduction is useful. SO in theory there is no bar on k-9 to have close to 1100 kg weight.

For further details,
http://www.statmyweb.com/s/kaveri-k9

from
http://www.defencenow.com/news/164/indigenous-kaveri-engine-clears-flight-tests-in-russia.html
The engine has been able to produce 70 to 75 kn as per the article.
So if weight reduction target for k-10 is achieved bringing down the weight by 100 kg.
There is nothing wide off the mark in my quote that we have a TWR of 7 engine tech at hand, with out snecma JV

http://frontierindia.net/drdo-creates-gatet-project-for-advanced-gas-turbine-engine-research

SO in this project DRDO will learn in adopting single crystal blade tech to kabini core.They are going to buy the technology,and modify the kabini core ,not simply going to planting another eco core in place of kabini core,.

 

[ersakthivel]

Exclusive Interview with DRDO chief Dr. Saraswat on Kaveri Engine Project (Part- 6 ) - YouTube

An interview by Dr V.K. Saraswath rgarding kaveri engine program.

 

[ersakthivel]

New Page 4

some news regarding the turbine blades .

 

[uss]

India could test Kaveri engine on Tejas by end-2013

India could test Kaveri engine on Tejas by end-2013

 

[sathya]

can it be used for LIFT ? or just tech demo, for further research

 

[uss]

can it be used for LIFT ? or just tech demo, for further research

Not sure it could be used for LIFT as there are no official conformation on this. Officially kaveri is going to be used for Unmanned Air Vehicle and also for marine applications.But GTRE is still modifying the Kaveri after the initial tests results come from gromov. So lets hope they might able to rectify some more problems in extended tests in Russia & as the confidence grows on it, it might be used for different purposes.

Press Information Bureau English Releases
http://samantk.com/News/Defence/kaveri-engine-update-drdo-seeks-extension.html

 

[SpArK]

Kaveri Successfully Completes Official Altitude Testing, Demonstrates First Block Of Flight In Flying Test Bed

MONDAY, DECEMBER 10, 2012

MAKS airshow 2011-Zhukhovsky,Russia

In Lok Sabha today Defence Minister A K Antony gave an update on the progress made by the Kaveri Engine Development Project as follows:

(i) So far, 9 prototypes of Kaveri Engine and 4 prototypes of Kabani (Core) Engine have been developed.
(ii) 2200 hours of test (ground and altitude conditions) has been conducted.

(iii) The following two major milestones have been achieved:-

---Successful completion of Official Altitude Testing (OAT) ; and
---Demonstration of First Block of flight of Kaveri Engine in Flying Test Bed (FTB).


Kaveri Engine was integrated with IL-76 Aircraft at Gromov Flight Research Institute (GFRI), Russia and flight test was successfully carried out upto 12 km maximum altitude and maximum forward speed of 0.7 Mach No. Twenty Seven flights for 57 hours duration have been completed.


DRDO demonstrated its technological capability in aero-engine technology. This has been a great achievement in the aerospace community of the country, when the first ever indigenously developed fighter aircraft engine was subjected to flight testing. Tacit knowledge acquired by the DRDO scientists during this project will also be applied for further aerospace technology. Kaveri spin-off engine can be used as propulsion system for Indian Unmanned Strike Air Vehicle (USAV).

The project was sanctioned in March 1989 at an estimated cost of Rs.382.81 Crore and Probable Date of Completion (PDC) of December 1996. The PDC was extended to December 2009 and cost was revised and enhanced to Rs.2839 Crore. So far, Rs.1996 Crore has been utilized in this project

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Uday Singh in Lok Sabha today.


Chindits: Kaveri Successfully Completes Official Altitude Testing, Demonstrates First Block Of Flight In Flying Test Bed (FTB)

 

[Sam2012]

Can't this engine be tested on HAL HJT-36 Or LCA TD Aircraft which flew in early 2000?

Since we are license producing both western & russian engine why can't those tech go into Kaveri & raise the thrust upto 100+ Kn , We should learn how to reverse engineer from chinese

Airchief browne has clearly suggested ADA & HAL to eiether steal or buy but hook or crook India should have high class aircraft engine & AESA radar

 

[sayareakd]

Can't this engine be tested on HAL HJT-36 Or LCA TD Aircraft which flew in early 2000?

Since we are license producing both western & russian engine why can't those tech go into Kaveri & raise the thrust upto 100+ Kn , We should learn how to reverse engineer from chinese

Airchief browne has clearly suggested ADA & HAL to eiether steal or buy but hook or crook India should have high class aircraft engine & AESA radar

tech provided to us earlier is just assembly tech.