Kaveri Engine

[p2prada]

I am rather excited to see this deal signed. It means Rafale will have the option of uprated engines across the board. Of course India gets royalties and work share. :cool2:

Yeah. Apart from Rafales we can see this engine in other programs too. Primarily our need for the new engine is for the AMCA program.

Then again, we are both planning stealthy UCAVs. IAF's first version will have the Kaveri K-9. The next version may have one or two K-10s. France has similar programs too and our lesser industrial costs would mean getting better export deals in the future. France can also use this to get a better deal in the joint Anglo French UCAV program.

This engine can be modified to be used on ships as well. So, that's another bonus advantage.

I only see advantages with the K-10 program. Even if it costs more money, the technological input will be great for India while the financial input will be a big breather for the Safran group.

 

[ersakthivel]

he mostly posts nonsense without any basics. If you egg him on, he will only post more nonsense like he probably has done now.

He has no answers, only questions and assumptions. his assumptions are what make him impossible to engage.

If you ask him to post links for his tall claims, he has none. To date he has never posted anything to do with what we were actually discussing.

Give him a few years on the internet and he will start making viable points and with a better understanding of what others are talking about. Giving him any attention would only mean helping him hijack the thread with useless dribble.

The reasons as to why we are ignoring him,

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/18521-ada-tejas-lca-iii-204.html#post578461

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/18521-ada-tejas-lca-iii-207.html#post579107


http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/18521-ada-tejas-lca-iii-207.html#post579116

so, what twinblade said, did come to pass. The lca thread is now filled with pages and pages of unsubstantiated claims and nationalistic tripe.

he has already started posting in the kaveri, pakfa, rafale and j-20 threads. Pretty soon he will take over these threads too.

it is a pity that prada cannot continue posting stuff LIKE in the good old days with total bullshit insulting each and every poster who dared to cross his line., very sorry for that.

DUE TO THIS IGNORING THE tejas thread looks neat and clean with authentic sources always quoted unlike prada's gems like,


1.a 10 ton fighter does not need 100 kn engine( while grippen NG is exploring EPE-414-GE for swiss oreder with 120 kn)

2.LCA has cranked delta because only it can afford it and no other fighter affords it,(totally oblivious to the fact that F-16 Xl had it)

And net is littered with articles about it's superior lift to drag specs and it can carry more load to further distance with performance improvement in every corner of the flight envelope while doing that.Anyone can google and find out.

And the LCA tejas was modelled on that.

link-
http://www.airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/1983/November 1983/1183f16xl.aspx

3.LCA is 30 year old hell with inconvinient facts like funding for 2 TD sonly was released on 1993.

4.Only the aircraft that fired the missile is entitled to guide it, and accompanying ew craft with bigger radar is outlawed from guiding it.

5.Only big fighter is allowed to carry longer range BVrs as it is outlawed for them to take asssistance of accompanying ew fighter to guide these missiles beyond their radar range.(He will eat crow when confronted with reports like GRIPPEN NG will be integerating meteor wiht it.)

6.His obnoxious claim that LCA never crossed mach 1.4 while ADA says it crossed mach -1.6 whithin the partially opened flight enveople.

8.Saying LCA will disintegerate in mid air if it crosses 6G.And keeping mum when pointed out with facts like that it has been tested upto 13 Gs in the ground rigs , as is the norm for any engineering product to be designed to withstand 1.5 times their max load.

9.Quoting archaic FLIGHT global -2009 article written by I don't who(some one called -AUSTIN or wha)t, with racial prejudices to say LCA weighs over 7 tons emty.

10.Saying upgraded MIG-21s are better 4th gen than LCA mk-I.

11.Jaguars are superb ground bombers and can exceed LCA mk_1 in all flight parameters, blithely obvious to the fact that it was a world war _2 type trainer aircraft in original version with no radar.

12. Shedding crocodile tears for the 400 pilots of MIGs and JAGUARS, saying that they should be allowed to continue to fly them into oblivion instead of getting spoiled on LCA .

13. CAn he give evidence to the claim that engine parts of KAVERI deformed after achieving their peak thrust? NO.

14. The only one link he gave was the CEMILAC report by S.K.JEBAKUMAR which suggested some drag reduction measures for LCA.The PDF itself says that it is being implemented. But he and twin blade are arguing that it is not implemented !!!!
Quoting a link and opposing the claim in the same official link is hillarious.

14. IF you go to LCA TEJAS thread from page no-170 to 230 there was a raging argument lasting 200 posts and finally the thread actually looks like facts about tejas rather than "HATE TEJAS CLUB " it once used to be with p2prada holding court.

Finally I have posted more than twenty or thirty links to counter his points, ask him to give a single authentic link for his counter claims.


Still keeping a tight mouth when countered with facts and claiming in this thread that all the stuff on LCA thread is bogus, classic evasion tactics perhaps.



.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Follow Rules :

1.Members should avoid going personal, its not civilized way of communication and against forum rules.

2.Counter Arguments and keep your cool at all times..

3.Provide link or proof when asked for without much arguments..

4.If one does not like other post, put the other on ignore list and carry on..


Any more of Personal argument will be deleted, And the one who use Abuse will be dealt strictly..

 

[ersakthivel]

I am not insulting anyone but p2prada does not support arguments with authentic links and calls me a ranter, that was the point I raised. I am sorry in case I inconvenienced any one.

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Best to avoid is to put each other at ignore list..

 

[Parrot]

Hi Everyone, Thank you for being so informative on the Kaveri engine in this thread, it was a learning experience specially when one is new to all these things.

In my belief the Kaveri engine is great for what has been achieved so far. We are one of the few nations that have the ability to design and build an turbofan engine ourselves, testing it successfully too. Though we may have to catch up on some areas compared to the western world in engine design, there will be a day when we may have one thats even better. The Kaveri has laid the foundation stone for us. Bless the everyone team who put the the hard work to get us to this level.

Does anyone think that using the current version of the engine on a test aircraft platform regularly maybe for 6 to 9 months (maybe even a year) would help identify any bugs and help improve it further? Could one of the retired or older aircrafts be used to test it even though the aircraft may have to be modified to accept the engine considering that this would be a cheaper option for us?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Kaveri was tested in Russia and fitted to an IL-76, Same can be done in India but presently there are no IL-76 from research purpose..


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Kaveri tested in LABs, One can tweet it in lab also ..

Does anyone think that using the current version of the engine on a test aircraft platform regularly maybe for 6 to 9 months (maybe even a year) would help identify any bugs and help improve it further? Could one of the retired or older aircrafts be used to test it even though the aircraft may have to be modified to accept the engine considering that this would be a cheaper option for us?

 

[ersakthivel]

Hi Everyone, Thank you for being so informative on the Kaveri engine in this thread, it was a learning experience specially when one is new to all these things.

In my belief the Kaveri engine is great for what has been achieved so far. We are one of the few nations that have the ability to design and build an turbofan engine ourselves, testing it successfully too. Though we may have to catch up on some areas compared to the western world in engine design, there will be a day when we may have one thats even better. The Kaveri has laid the foundation stone for us. Bless the everyone team who put the the hard work to get us to this level.

Does anyone think that using the current version of the engine on a test aircraft platform regularly maybe for 6 to 9 months (maybe even a year) would help identify any bugs and help improve it further? Could one of the retired or older aircrafts be used to test it even though the aircraft may have to be modified to accept the engine considering that this would be a cheaper option for us?

Concentrating on the jv with snecma and absorbing as much tech from them is a much better option than finishing this engine to it's best performance level.

Because SNECMA says that they will finish the JV with GTRE in 5 years time ,and transfer the tech.They have already conducted a tech audit and preliminary design is being done by the GTRE according to the statement.

If their words are true then if we get 90+ kn engine ,which weighs lesser ,with advanced core, and single crystal design tech, it will be a huge boost to both the RAFALE,AMCA &LCA MK-II.

BECAUSE THIS JV K-10 WILL BE FAR SUPERIOR THAN THE K-9 (75 KN) by GTRE.

This is the future, in one stroke it will propel india to the big league ,as one of the leading aeronautical power, with composite tech ,cranked delta wing form, avionics, and fly by wire tech already mastered, the missing piece in the puzzle is the engine.

What k-9 has given india is the BARGAINING POWER.No one can hold us to ransom in future , and no can ask a very steep price for single crystal tech, and all other critical tech.Because every one knows india can develop them on it's own ,if more efforts and funds are deployed in the near future,since GTRE on it's own has come this far.


Also India can build a decent twin engined fighter with the k-9 itself if others refuse to provide us with tech ,provided they optimize the weapon load and combat range of the proposed fighter according to the k-9 engines power. Certainly a 1100 kg engine producing close to 75 kn wet thrust and 47 kn dry thrust can power a decent sized twin engined bird in future.

That's what the GTRE achieved with K-9 kaveri.

People should recognize this factor more than carping on how it failed to power the TEJAS LCA.,with in the 20 year time frame ,considering they started from zero to 1100 kg weighing 75 kn engine is comparable to most other western programs. ,

 

[Kunal Biswas]

:cool2:

 

[Parrot]

Thank you Kunal, great videos and very interesting and informative.

 

[Parrot]

Thank You ersakthivel. I appreciated your points on SNECMA and you are right that its quite logical to go that route when we can absorb better technology.

Do you think that we can also do something on our own to develop the engine more, while we are also working with SNECMA? Maybe with the help of our engineers we may come up with something better for K-9?

 

[ersakthivel]

Thank You ersakthivel. I appreciated your points on SNECMA and you are right that its quite logical to go that route when we can absorb better technology.

Do you think that we can also do something on our own to develop the engine more, while we are also working with SNECMA? Maybe with the help of our engineers we may come up with something better for K-9?

the problems we don't have single crystal blade tech,blisk tech,thermobaric coating tech which are essential for engine blades to withstand higher temperature and stress to produce more thrust ,while the engine remains light weight.

We should try to develop tech for this speciality fields in metaulargy labs. To absorb the tech from snecma on k-10, and establishing lab methods and production methods for these absorbed technologies itself will be a great challenge for GTRE .

Honing flawless production methos ,establishing testing and certification process for them,the list will go on endlessly.So I don't know what our GTRE will do alone in this field. May be initiating research into ceramic matrix tech for next gen turbine blades they can start in earnest.

 

[Parrot]

Thank you ersakthivel, I think you are right on track when you say that we have to develop tech in metallurgy and ceramic matrix composites. As an optimist I think that our engineers are capable of getting the knowledge and then manufacturing world class products.:thumb:

 

[opesys]

Sorry this has been answered already but I can't find it.
Can somebody tell me with GTRE and Scenma JV, let's say if K-10 gets completed successfully, will it be still be a GTRE/DRDO product with just the consultancy money being paid to snecma and keep the full ownership of the IP ? or is it going to be a GTRE-Snecma product with Snecma also being the owner of the product ?

 

[ersakthivel]

Sorry this has been answered already but I can't find it.
Can somebody tell me with GTRE and Scenma JV, let's say if K-10 gets completed successfully, will it be still be a GTRE/DRDO product with just the consultancy money being paid to snecma and keep the full ownership of the IP ? or is it going to be a GTRE-Snecma product with Snecma also being the owner of the product ?

\No one needs to worry bout k-10 too much.I think the k-10 is caught in a cross fire between IAF and GTRE.
After three years of haggling,
A.K.ANtony appointed a joint committee of ADA,GTRE,IAF, which has cleared the JV.It is the news I last heard about K-10.

if you have any different news you please post.
It will take another 5 years for the jv to be signed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Such fast decision making is unheard of anywhere in the world.
the negotiantion process for the JV of india's most critical engine(including single crystal tech,blisk,thermobaric coating) is progressing at goods train speed.
Who is responsibe?
IAF or GTRE or snecma or the inept MOD which cannot play the authoritative arbitarator?

 

[Parrot]

Having read that there are some issues with the AL-55I engine for the IJT Sitara and hence there is a long delay in the project.

I was wondering if the Kaveri K-9 engine technology could be used to build a smaller engine for the IJT Sitara and would this help us in our quest in a total indigenous training aircraft? Would this also help in pushing the IJT Sitara project forward?

 

[p2prada]

The problem isn't with the engine. The problem was the engine was chosen a bit too late and hence the delay.

Currently, there is no scope for using the Kaveri K-9 on Sitara.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There is already a Engine is in making similar to AL-55I but for UAV..

Its application can be done for IJT Sitara as its dimensions are same or smaller than AL-55I yet laghu engine is more powerful 20kN turbofan engine.

Having read that there are some issues with the AL-55I engine for the IJT Sitara and hence there is a long delay in the project.

I was wondering if the Kaveri K-9 engine technology could be used to build a smaller engine for the IJT Sitara and would this help us in our quest in a total indigenous training aircraft? Would this also help in pushing the IJT Sitara project forward?

 

[afako]

Sorry this has been answered already but I can't find it.
Can somebody tell me with GTRE and Scenma JV, let's say if K-10 gets completed successfully, will it be still be a GTRE/DRDO product with just the consultancy money being paid to snecma and keep the full ownership of the IP ? or is it going to be a GTRE-Snecma product with Snecma also being the owner of the product ?

Quoting from another forum:

Those of you who think that Snecma is going to completely re-design the kaveri engine from scratch and share their knowledge about the design aspects and their knowledge about the materials, then once again I have to say, this is most certainly not going to be true.

Snecma is going to plug in the Core of the M88 engine, with the rest of the Kaveri engine(i.e. without the Kabini Core) and help in integrating the M88 core with the kaveri Engine. Once this hybrid engine is ready and performs to the the satisfactory level, they will then share the manufacturing technology for manufacturing the complete engine.

They will not share the design aspects of the M88 core or any other aspects about engine design.

Now there lies my problem. Learning how to manufacture is not the same as learning how to design.
We have learnt how to manufacture a number of things, through the license build and technology transfer regimes. Both doing only screw driver jobs on imported CKD kits and also building completely from raw material stage.
But this has not given us enough expertise in designing most of the products that we have manufactured through these routes.

My only point is that, even if the joint venture with snecma is successful, it will not mean that we as in GTRE or any other indian agency, will have mastered the technology of designing and manufacturing turbofan engines for any type of application, whether for combat aircrafts or for transport aircrafts.

If we had to design another completely new engine with say 150 KN thrust, then the entire experience with Snecma would take us only to about half way between where we are now and where would be, if we had managed to completely design the kaveri Engine on our own, with the desired operating specs.

So the decision to terminate the K9 effort where it stands and just go ahead with K10 with snecma is not the right move.
The K9 effort should continue along with the K10 effort. Try and re-design the kabini core, with knowledge gained from working with snecma, to see if we can complete the kaveri engine the way it was supposed to be.

 

[p2prada]

Laghu Shakti is a 4KN TD engine.

Kaveri K-9 UCAV spinoff is meant for AURA will be at LCA level in thrust.

The 20KN engine is a new development and GTRE has started looking for a foreign partner only now. So, that's like 5-10 years before we see an actual prototype.

Quoting from another

That's just speculation. Now everybody is ready to give hot components to India for engines. Saturn has already done so and even EADS had already offered it for MRCA.

It won't be a JV if they hide everything.

If we are to manufacture the K-10 in India, then we will need 100% ToT along with manufacturing rights. Except what would have been a $2-3Billion effort if we go indigenously would instead be a $4Billion+ to cater for buying the technology from France.

This is speculation too, but far more realistic if you see what's being offered in other mega deals.

 

[afako]

Laghu Shakti is a 4KN TD engine.

Kaveri K-9 UCAV spinoff is meant for AURA will be at LCA level in thrust.

The 20KN engine is a new development and GTRE has started looking for a foreign partner only now. So, that's like 5-10 years before we see an actual prototype.



That's just speculation. Now everybody is ready to give hot components to India for engines. Saturn has already done so and even EADS had already offered it for MRCA.

It won't be a JV if they hide everything.

If we are to manufacture the K-10 in India, then we will need 100% ToT along with manufacturing rights. Except what would have been a $2-3Billion effort if we go indigenously would instead be a $4Billion+ to cater for buying the technology from France.

This is speculation too, but far more realistic if you see what's being offered in other mega deals.

The technology for materials used and the know-how will be transferred. The way Scenma designs and integrates the M88 core with the Kaveri is not going to be shared.

It's not about money but the K10 would mean all the K9 people would be transferred to K10 project and K9 closed down, so if you want to manufacture a new engine outside of this project, then you will be stuck where we are today plus the knowledge gained from Snecma.