Kaveri Engine

[lcatejas]

India have ability to do that but our babus who are on pay roll of big defense companies who don't want that India have its own engine or plane ..Its all business...

 

[p2prada]

Nobody is going to teach you how to build a " state of the art " fighter jet aircraft engine from scratch. It's no surprise that Snecma deal fell thru.

Huh! What are you talking about? Snecma deal is still being negotiated. The article is talking about the first Kaveri program.

IAF wants ECO core so they can engine late batch Rafales and rengine early batch during MLU, not to mention power LCA and AMCA. Commonality is the goal and always been the focus. Having a common domestic engine for three platforms will save billions and thousands of hours.

IAF no longer wants the ECO core. They want a new core. That's what I am trying to tell. IAF wants a 6th gen core.

You can't lump the latest economy M88 to a gaz guzzling, high fod, low TBO AL-31F. The technologies are a generation apart and the technology of the M88-3 is the same tech in the M88-ECO, just higher temp resistance. One is more fuel efficient with higher TBO times while the other provides higher thrust.

If that's the case then M-53 would end up being a 3rd gen engine. But we know that is not how it works. The M88-2 and AL-31 are of the same generation. It's like the difference between MKI and Rafale. Both are of the same generation, but Rafale is a newer design of that generation. Both AL-31 and M88-2 have single crystal blades of similar capability in heat tolerance. EJ-200 is actually ahead, perhaps of the same level as the ECO core.

What determines generations in engines is the materials tolerance temperature due to higher thrust requirements and in part to T/W ratio. The closer the heat tolerance to the theoretical 2100K along with thrust, the higher the generation of the engine. Where the M88-2 is ahead of the AL-31F is a more advanced FADEC due to a more recent design. But the same claim may not stick against the 117.

The new generation claims come only from Snecma, the same way as Rafale is publicly touted to be a next generation aircraft when infact it is still a 4th gen airframe.

There is more to an engine than just the thrust it puts out. Russia has yet to fix the other elements that make an engine 'SOTA.'

Haha! We will see who makes the first 6th gen engine then shall we. Russia or France. Heck the Russians have been flying 5th gen engines since 2008 and already developing a 6th gen engine core(Type 30) while France has a paper engine for 5th gen(ECO core) that requires funding from us in order to progress.

Anyway,
I am basing this thing about a new core on this article posted in the AMCA thread.

AMCA Update | idrw.org

ASR of IAF also means that a new engine for a 5th generation fighter aircraft has to be developed ,and Joint venture on Kaveri engine will have to incorporate new technology which are yet to be developed or discussed ,instead of just mating of Eco of M-88-3 engine with Kaveri which was the plan earlier

 

[Payeng]

How it would be an idea to change the M-88 engine of the Rafale with Kaveri GTX-35VS for the Indian tender?

 

[p2prada]

How it would be an idea to change the M-88 engine of the Rafale with Kaveri GTX-35VS for the Indian tender?

I had thought about this a before. Even if technically possible, the French wouldn't allow it.

Then again, K-9 is old technology at the level of a M53. Why would we want it on Rafale in the first place?

Other than that the K-9 works differently at different altitudes as compared to M88. Kaveri was built for LCA which is a Mig-21 type fighter, something the Rafale is not.

 

[LTE-TDD]

any further information?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

How it would be an idea to change the M-88 engine of the Rafale with Kaveri GTX-35VS for the Indian tender?

Kavari is not good as latest M-88eco or advance which will be on Rafale F3 of IAF..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I have holidays cards ready with me and they are free..

Anyways carry on..

 

[Apollyon]

Published : January 2009

Kaveri engine's naval version doing fine (The 12 MW marine gas turbine engine derived from the Kaveri jet engine is doing fine and will be used for propelling naval craft.)

 

[A chauhan]

^^ And if we use 8-9 Kaveri naval engines we can power up our IAC-I lol!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

^^ And if we use 8-9 Kaveri naval engines we can power up our IAC-I lol!

But i assume fuel consumption may be lower..

The size of LM-2500 is massive..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Though its perfect to power up Corvettes and less fuel consuming..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Marine Kaveri

The info is wrong, It should be 15MV instead of 12MV..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[ersakthivel]

Too much for a 10 ton fighter. 90-100 KN is more than enough. Too much power is not good for fighters with low wing loading.

what is this?
why too much power hurts?
what role does wing loading play with engine thrust?

 

[ersakthivel]

Is there anybody out there who can confirm this and support this with links?

The link is
The Hindu : Sci-Tech / Technology : Kaveri engine to power fifth generation fighter aircraft
This is the link you yourself has posted from hindu.
SO you were correct in the begining and GK too is right. it is wet thrust of 70-75 kn as people always mention only the wet thrust as max thrusts.
It is Vladimir who quoted ajai shukla to say 65 kns as wet thrust.
Anyway THE HINDU ALWAYS reports very correctly on science and technology mattes unlike the garbage reported in indian express and TOI.
All their articles are always correct with no overhype.
Note that AJAI SHUKLA never posted anything after his 65 kns claim.
People like him should have checked with THE HINDU and post the latest stuff ,I think.

 

[ersakthivel]

Thanks for the clarification.

Given the consequences of flying this engine at 70-75 kN of thrust, I don't think there is anything to celebrate.

Sustainable thrust is 65 kN and India needs help in reaching the target or design parameters. We have a long way to go to be able to celebrate. Now isn't the right time.

p2PRADA just writes his own stuff as if he cleaned the insides of K-9 and threw away all the melted and worn out parts after it achieved 75 kns!!!!!! .Taking his words over that of HINDU is meaningless.He writes in LCA tejas thread that wing loading is related to passenger aircrafts and has no implications for fighters!!!!!!!!

And in J-20 thread he has posted that long fuselage and shorter wings will make a fighter the best one to hell with TWR,AOA ,wingloading.

If you take his claims at face value the J-20 is supposed to be a superior stealth fighter just by having long fuselage and short wings to hell with non existant engines and unknown AOA and all protruding canards.

ANd LCA has a cranked deltawing , because it can afford it ,while other fighters cannot as per his claim.

And also he wrote that only big fighters can fire long range BVrs and LCA tejas cannot fire them.

And when i quoted source to point out the single engine grippen is going to be the first fighter integerated with METEOR and it can use it to it's full range with ew support from dedicated ew crafts, he hasn't spoken a word.

He posted CEMILAc link to S.K.JEBAKUMAr's paper to beat down lca with drag issues arising from sudden increase in cross section from x=5000 mm to x=6000mm.When I asked him to explain how grippen manages sudden increase in cross section and then decrease because of canard implementation , which go against WHITCOMB's area rule ,he has not replied.

 

[ersakthivel]

^^

GK, there is a reason why the other person is visiting the same place that you have been to. Hence, we both have the option of not responding to each other.

I knew what is afterburner all throughout, but I was not sure which thrust rating corresponded to which mode, dry or afterburner thrust. In your video, you mentioned 75 and immediately after the other person replied 52, and that added to the confusion and prompted me to think you didn't know what you were talking about. I put up a separate post seeking clarification of everything from others and p2prada has kindly given the best response that all of us have insofar failed.

I think that should put an end to this discussion that is not helping the topic in any way.

ending a discussion on P2PRAdA's words will be very dangerous he claims deep technical knowledge from fields ranging from tanks to jet engines to aircrafts which is dubious at best.He will never give you any link to substantiate his claim.

 

[ersakthivel]

The reason they were foxed is because the engine was so old, they had no idea or "forgotten" how the technology worked. If you have seen the movie Space Cowboys that will give you an example of what the Kaveri is.

So they called you over phone and told that to you. Can you give their names?

The LCA program was started without an engine present. This is known. We did not have any reason to cut open the F-404 for any reason.

It was started with kavery in mind and ge as the back up, may be you haven't noticed when you signed the files perhaps.

Appreciation is all good. But they haven't delivered. So there is nothing to appreciate unless you are one of those guys who says, "Ah! We lost, but at least the boys played well." Your posts indicate you are definitely more than 35 or 40 years old.

No one ever loses in tech race, tech continues to evolve.People will loose only if they take your advice to head and q infront of foriegn vendors for all things that can be done here with some more efoorts and funds and infra.Look at the way chinese are evolving.

The US did it cheaper than we did and did it even before the Kaveri program was even thought of. So, that 6 decades claim goes down the drain. The GE F404 first flew in 1978, Kaveri hasn't even been fitted on a fighter after more than 20 years.

CAAn you quote a single instance of a modern fighter engine that didn't have 20 year development cycle?

No. In my eyes or anybody's eyes there is no appreciation for having "tried." We aren't talking about some school kids playing cricket for the first time. These projects are meant to protect our country. The Kaveri program has cost the exchequer $2Billion and not a couple of Millions. The 2 decades, infrastructure from scratch yada yada are only excuses losers give to console themselves.

1.if you set such high standards for acievement mate then what do you think of the russians who flew a PAKFA with 0.3 sq met RCS after 14 years of sukhois design being selected.Pass or FAIL?

2.WHere is the new engine? new asea? exposed fan blades!!!!!! Pass or fail?

3.What do you think of the IAF which insisted on a two seater much more stringet stealth compliant 200 + FGFA when pledging money
for PAKFA in 2005 and now backtracking it to 144 with sheepish single seater is enough as pass or fail?

4.What do you think of RAFALE which has exactly the same 75 kn thrust for each of it's engine. Pass or Fail?

5.What do you think of IAF which chose it ? pass or fail?

6.What do you think of J-20 which is flying when chinese haven't developed their own engine even for JF-17? pass or fail?

7.How about your description of J-20 being a good dog fighter just by having long fuselage and shorter wings? pass or fail?

8.How about the boiler explosion on GORSHKOV pass or fail?

8.You are denigrating each and every indian product in this forum always giving them fail marks consistently, while upholding every foreign junk's reputation. Pass or fail?

Sorry matey. You are one of the old timers who is satisfied with what he has. I am not one of those guys.

It's a simple life for us young ones, deliver or die. The clients will tell that straight to your face. Tried isn't good enough and will never be good enough. Call me a troll as much as you want, no GTRE scientist can claim nothing anywhere in the world. They don't have anything to defend themselves with anyways.

1.While you want every indian product to be labelled inefficient and let them die, you will uphold the reputation of flying fossils like jaguar, mig-23, mig-21. pass or fail?

2.After flying migs for 30 years and loosing one in two fighters to accident now IAF has grounded MIG-23 after the death of sqn leader in an air crash and put out a statement that it will no longer put young pilots in mig-21s, but praising mirages at the same time .Who passed and who failed/ mirages or the migs?


2.did you count the gave the money to americans to develop their jet engines , so that you are authoritatively saying their efforts are cheaper? pass or fail?

We are so desperate for engine technology that the French are now dictating terms for the GTRE-Snecma engine and are openly laughing at our inability to develop a satisfactory engine. Actually the whole world is. If you are so blind to the truth, then I would rather be a troll than the genius that you are.

The french are even more desperate to sign the JV with GTRE to get the rafale deal and production run of 250 engines, because their rafale lines will cease productions if this order fails.

Who trolls and who is a genius is every one's guess.

 

[ersakthivel]

Huh! What are you talking about? Snecma deal is still being negotiated. The article is talking about the first Kaveri program.



IAF no longer wants the ECO core. They want a new core. That's what I am trying to tell. IAF wants a 6th gen core.

Have they specified their core requirements for PAKFA atleast ask them to go for a core that won't burn out midway in the sky.

If that's the case then M-53 would end up being a 3rd gen engine. But we know that is not how it works. The M88-2 and AL-31 are of the same generation. It's like the difference between MKI and Rafale. Both are of the same generation, but Rafale is a newer design of that generation. Both AL-31 and M88-2 have single crystal blades of similar capability in heat tolerance. EJ-200 is actually ahead, perhaps of the same level as the ECO core.

What determines generations in engines is the materials tolerance temperature due to higher thrust requirements and in part to T/W ratio. The closer the heat tolerance to the theoretical 2100K along with thrust, the higher the generation of the engine. Where the M88-2 is ahead of the AL-31F is a more advanced FADEC due to a more recent design. But the same claim may not stick against the 117.

The new generation claims come only from Snecma, the same way as Rafale is publicly touted to be a next generation aircraft when infact it is still a 4th gen airframe.



Haha! We will see who makes the first 6th gen engine then shall we. Russia or France. Heck the Russians have been flying 5th gen engines since 2008 and already developing a 6th gen engine core(Type 30) while France has a paper engine for 5th gen(ECO core) that requires funding from us in order to progress.

Anyway,
I am basing this thing about a new core on this article posted in the AMCA thread.



AMCA Update | idrw.org

so despite 20 years of stagnation after collapse of USSR ,russians will always stay on the top of the world forever.

 

[ersakthivel]

Kaveri Jet Engine - IDP Sentinel
According to this report the kaveri is developing 80 kn thrust without any problem.Melting of any parts as claimed by p2prada is just his own wisdom .He doesnot even know the basic fact that all materials used in the engine manufacture will be tested well before their use in engine for the stress and temperature specified as he has no technical background.The job of people at gtre is not to test which material melts at 80 KN.

The blade throwing problem was due to frequency resonanace problem, that stalled the engine development for 4 years, that too because there were no testing facilities.Then it was sorted out after tests in russia.GTRE director himself spoke about it in his press meet.This is what is being refered as parts of the engine being deformed at higher thrust by prada.This problem is already sorted out.

Rest of the stuff in the site is so typical of the mud headed indian media ,which doesn't know the complexity of engine development.While accusing the kaveri as a dud with 80 kn.it praises the snecma M-88 with 75 kn as good!!!!!

Accepted the the M-88 has higher TWR than kaveri,but if it is to be used in twin engine fighters a little reduction of fighter weight or stores weight will make the twin engined fighter based on kaveri as good as RAFALE's specs.

It is the job of fighter designers to use the available local tech judiciously to design a fighter with overall TWR equivalent to it's peers.If half a ton stores capacity is sacrificed for this purpose the sky wont fall on their head.

The cheaper cost and resultant more number of fighters for the same cost would more than offs et the reduction in stores.

RAFALE comes to about 150 millions, surely a twin engines fighter based on kaveri wont cost even half of that so what do we loose by half a ton of stores capacity?
Sadly indian media never highlights practical stuff like this.I still maintain that any twin engined fighter developed with kaveri will be on par with it's western peers.

That's the reason why chief of ADA mohan rao was set up by the police in massage parlour arrest, I suspect.The arrests came after the program has almost achieved it's desired results.He has spent 20 years on the project.Top government officials in indian civil administration side are known to squirrel away millions of dollars without a question being asked.You arrest a man who gave the country 80 kn kaveri engine for massage parlour crime!!!!!!!!1Even if he was actually implicated in any other departmanet it would have been hush hushed with a simple phone calls to higher ups.N.D.iwari tapes and many other politician sex tapes are flooding the country.


In the same way kerala police arrested NAMBI NARAYANAN , a reknowned scientist spearheading the development of ISRo's liquid engines tech.As a result the cryogenic program is suffering delays.He too was arrested , maligned as a spy and tortured for 19 years in a salaciuos 19 year old spy-cum-sex scandal involving a maritius women called RASHHEDHA .

The kerala police tortured him no end and he was close to death without even being given the courtesy of facing the chief investigative officer in this case.Only after CBI took over the case ,he was acquited and retired as a broken hearted man.

Recently human rights commision has ordered the kerala government to pay 10 lakh as compensation and asked them to prosecute the police officials responsible.

Strangely the man who arrested him retired as DGP.The scientist is now a broken hearted man. The startling thing is ,now in a book written by western author ,there is an allegation that this is the handi work of CIA to decide india's liquid engined rocket project!!!!!!! You can read his full interview in the open magazine.

Just when ARJUN is succeeding it's SIVAKUMAR of CVRDE was killed in a road accident.

All the three guys who are now no more leading their key parojects, all the three projects are essential for india's tecnnological independence.

"However, DRDO is negotiating with M/s Snecma, France for co-development and co-production of Kaveri aero engine for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas MK-II. The project proposal will be put up for Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) approval after the completion of price negotiation.

"Indian Air Force (IAF) has been consulted at every stage and is part of negotiation. IAF has cleared the Kaveri engine co-development proposal with M/s Snecma, France. The draft engine technical specification has been examined and cleared by IAF. IAF has further suggested that the engine design should have minimal impact on the LCA Tejas airframe for future retrofitment."

This is the actual stage of snecma -gtre negotiations ,which was stalled for two years due to IAF's objection.