Kaveri Engine

[Vamsi]

Vamsi,

GE will never give that core data away. That's proprietary info and IPR. India has to go the hard way full speed.

I know they won't, but we should try to get it some how

 

[AnantS]

Kaveri Dry Engine is Original Kaveri minus AB, that's it, it will prove the core of the Kaveri engine,

Why do we need american blade composition when our own DMS4 is slightly better than their Rene N6?

Did you even read what I have said earlier, I will repeat again, real carefully now "We should try to replace American HPT in F414 with Indigenous HPT, not reverse engineer it, & To replace it we need F414 core data",& if successful our F414 can run on indigenous HPT, so we will be sanction free. No where I said we should reverse engineer F414 core & back port it to Kaveri.

F414 is screwdrivergiri, we will only be doing SKD level assembly now & in future we might do CKD, that's it...this will create manpower & skillsets ONLY for assembly, not for core manufacturing

IIRC as per last aero show slides - it seems productionising what is now lab grown crystal blades is an issue

 

[spacemarine2023]

Only way is the long hard way…

People saying core data… we will not get any even if we get this will not make us sanction proof..

the core data will require machining data..
Machining data will require the WHY data..

its never ending loop…DIY is the only key

ideally India should have started with TurboJet rnd 50 years ago then gradually built TurnoFans that would have made things easy now..

but no one had that kind of vision whatever we are getting as a 414 deal is gold for India. people dont realise how far behind we are in Jet Engine tech.

 

[Vamsi]

but no one had that kind of vision whatever we are getting as a 414 deal is gold for India.

You call SKD assembly of F414 as gold, lol
we have manufactured AL-31F from raw material stage, its experience actually helped in development of DMS4 SCBs, this is what should be called as gold, not some SKD assembly.

 

[Vamsi]

People saying core data… we will not get any even if we get this will not make us sanction proof..

the core data will require machining data..
Machining data will require the WHY data..

Dei, how many times I have to say this??

I never said we should reverse engineer their core, hence we don't need their manufacturing "Know-why"

I said we should try to replace F414s HPT with Indigenous HPT, & for that to happen, we need performance data of their HPT, combustor, HPC, Fan

 

[spacemarine2023]

Dei, how many I have to say this??

I never said we should reverse engineer their core, hence we don't need their manufacturing "Know-why"

I said we should try to replace F414s HPT with Indigenous HPT, & for that to happen, we need performance data of their HPT, combustor, HPC, Fan

performance data wont do jack shot … and then why to stop at HPT why not replace combustor, HPC, Fan .. I never said reverse engineer because I am telling even if we reverse engineer for Jet Engines that will not provide us any long term results..
Whats the focus on HPT, there are 100s of other components that will need to be sourced from outside we can’t manufacture them in house also..

only way this can work is GE themselves try to integrate no other way.. and this integration by OEM will take years and billions to certify..

 

[Vamsi]

What's the focus on HPT

because it will help us to validate our own indigenous DMS4 HPT, & its the most important of all

there are 100s of other components that will need to be sourced from outside we can’t manufacture them in house also..

If we are importing 100s of other components from outside, then why did you say F414 is some sort of gold for India??

 

[spacemarine2023]

because it will help us to validate our own indigenous DMS4 HPT, & its the most important of all


If we are importing 100s of other components from outside, then why did you say F414 is some sort of gold for India??

a jet engine has thousands of parts and even GE source it from many nations and entities..
This deal is gold because we are doing 80% by value deal, this will set up a modern manufacturing line that will bring new technologies and skill sets.
India do many prototypes but we dont have capabilities to manufacture these prototypes has many components sources from outside that includes Kaveri also this deal will slowly let us bring Indian SMEs to bring capacity in India.
Its not assembling job.

Regarding validating better stick with Kaveri, the engines has micron level precisions built in. It will require too many resources and time to do these unnecessary projects.

 

[Vamsi]

a jet engine has thousands of parts and even GE source it from many nations and entities..
This deal is gold because we are doing 80% by value deal, this will set up a modern manufacturing line that will bring new technologies and skill sets.

SKD assembly will give new technologies and skill sets, Lol

 

[spacemarine2023]

SKD assembly will give new technologies and skill sets, Lol

not assembling and also better than nothing we currently have. Kaveri once certified needs to be produce right. Do you think manufacturing line and processes can be built up in a night?
Working in lab and mass produce is different ball games.

like I already told India does many prototypes how many we actually produce practically none.
The main reason is we don’t have any capability in our nation this deal will build capacity and capability

 

[Blademaster]

Dei, how many times I have to say this??

I never said we should reverse engineer their core, hence we don't need their manufacturing "Know-why"

I said we should try to replace F414s HPT with Indigenous HPT, & for that to happen, we need performance data of their HPT, combustor, HPC, Fan

They won't give it to you. That's what we are trying to say. Hence, we need to do it our own way.

 

[Vamsi]

at 13:31 in the below video, he is claiming that there are plans to use 2 Kaveri engines on a twin engined fighter

Grp Captain VN Jha says " We have got the alternative plans going on, in which 2 Kaveri engines will be used on twin engine aircraft, that concept is right now going on. I can't tell you how much we have progressed,but that thought is there, should the GE engine being denied, IAF, HAL & ADA are ready with alternative plans to use two kaveri engines"

 

[jai jaganath]

at 13:31 in the below video, he is claiming that there are plans to use 2 Kaveri engines on a twin engined fighter

Grp Captain VN Jha says " We have got the alternative plans going on, in which 2 Kaveri engines will be used on twin engine aircraft, that concept is right now going on. I can't tell you how much we have progressed,but that thought is there, should the GE engine being denied, IAF, HAL & ADA are ready with alternative plans to use two kaveri engines"

Even he said changes in airframe has to be made in aircraft for Kaveri
Is it smaller ones or large changes coz if large entire certification will have to take place again thus delaying

 

[Abhijat]

From The Hindu article. Any substance to it ?

 

[Javelin_Sam]

From The Hindu article. Any substance to it ?View attachment 211823

These are not at all the core(I mean the beating heart) of jet engine technology. So in a way it us understandable that US/GE chose to share these. But if India asked for even these things in the ToT, I think we do not have inhouse ability to develop these/or manufacture them in a scale outside of laboratory. And do note the many machining and tooling stuff. Manufacturing is an altogether different ball game than development in lab. We learned it the hard way in Tejas LSP - IOC - FOC - SP series. Now something as complex as an engine will be an even daunting task. Atleast for the above machining and tooling stuff, I'm expecting 10-15 years for us to reach a low rate manufacturing level without compromising on quality. That is if we go full steam persistent with Dry-Kaveri - Kaveri with Afterburner prototypes, testing on Ghatak UCAV, then moving on to a twin engine fighter for testing.
If atleast 50% of above mentioned stuff are shared under ToT, then we can leverage them to cut shot the testing to production time of Kaveri family. So I see this deal as a win.

 

[Vamsi]

 

[Azaad]

These are not at all the core(I mean the beating heart) of jet engine technology. So in a way it us understandable that US/GE chose to share these. But if India asked for even these things in the ToT, I think we do not have inhouse ability to develop these/or manufacture them in a scale outside of laboratory. And do note the many machining and tooling stuff. Manufacturing is an altogether different ball game than development in lab. We learned it the hard way in Tejas LSP - IOC - FOC - SP series. Now something as complex as an engine will be an even daunting task. Atleast for the above machining and tooling stuff, I'm expecting 10-15 years for us to reach a low rate manufacturing level without compromising on quality. That is if we go full steam persistent with Dry-Kaveri - Kaveri with Afterburner prototypes, testing on Ghatak UCAV, then moving on to a twin engine fighter for testing.
If atleast 50% of above mentioned stuff are shared under ToT, then we can leverage them to cut shot the testing to production time of Kaveri family. So I see this deal as a win.

Most of the mfg technologies mentioned in the article , except for PMC & CMC , already exists in HAL Koraput. We've been mfg the Al-31 series almost indigenously out there for more than a decade . Moreover if they're sharing technology for casting & machining SCBs & other hot parts as well as forging power metallurgy discs for turbines as well as PMC & CMC castings as mentioned in the article ( which I very much doubt ) , that's akin to almost 100% ToT of not just know how but also know why .

As an aside , Godrej Aerospace has been selected to mfg the prototypes of the dry version of Kaveri , which should give you an inkling about the nature of capacities they've developed.

 

[no smoking]

because it will help us to validate our own indigenous DMS4 HPT, & its the most important of all

Why you need performance data of the part of a foreign jet engine to validate your own component? If your product is truly indigenous, then the material is different, the processing is different, even the design concept is different, in other words, the targets of the most of the performance data are supposed to be different.
There is only one scenario will requires the performance data of a foreign engine to VALIDATE yours: you are reverse engineering it.

 

[spacemarine2023]

Why you need performance data of the part of a foreign jet engine to validate your own component? If your product is truly indigenous, then the material is different, the processing is different, even the design concept is different, in other words, the targets of the most of the performance data are supposed to be different.
There is only one scenario will requires the performance data of a foreign engine to VALIDATE yours: you are reverse engineering it.

performance data is readily available most of the US research is done by universities its all in the published papers..
Its common knowledge actually..

for example the kaveri can function at 1400 degree cel, french one can function at 1600 degrees and US can function at 1700 degrees, basically the more heat the compressor take more efficiently it can function…

its all common knowledge from published papers how Americans conduct research they keep on validating for every few degree increase in heat how the blade intels are acting and which angles are most efficient..

Americans are close to master the adaptive cycle engine which will come into product with in this decade it will be much more efficient engine than current flat rated jet engines like kaveri 414

 

[Azaad]

After GE Deal, India Looks At Co-development Of Next Generation Fighter Jet Engine

An offer from Safran, sources said, has already come and it involves the full Transfer of Technology (TOT), a co-development offer and no restrictions on stopping any access to sensitive issues. , India News - Times Now

www.timesnownews.com