Kaveri Engine

[Okabe Rintarou]

Flame holding of Kaveri was sustained? Saurav, in one of his videos, had pointed that Kaveri had flamed out during one of the tests

Was that video from this year? After March? The news of the flameholder fix is from March this year. They would have tested it only after the that.
At least in March, during the flameholder test, there were no flameouts.

 

[Covfefe]

Was that video from this year? After March? The news of the flameholder fix is from March this year. They would have tested it only after the that.
At least in March, during the flameholder test, there were no flameouts.

I think it was a 2020 video. But good to know that flame holding has stabilized. Has the engine been tested on a flying testbed since? We go to Ruskies for that, right?

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

I think it was a 2020 video. But good to know that flame holding has stabilized. Has the engine been tested on a flying testbed since? We go to Ruskies for that, right?

Not yet, I think. It will be a big news whenever it happens.

 

[Vamsi]

I think it was a 2020 video. But good to know that flame holding has stabilized. Has the engine been tested on a flying testbed since? We go to Ruskies for that, right?

Could post that video which you are talking about ?

 

[Karthi]

There is a lot of research going on , I believe we have solved most of the problems regarding Kaveri Engine , need to go back to the flight testing for further evaluation . Ground trials are some what succesful.

In pics study regarding Afterburner. GTRE/DRDO made significant progress in Materials and thermal coatings atleast 20 research papers are in my laptop , but my laptop stopped working so can't share with you guys .

Thermal Spray Coatings From India Of Interest To NASA | A&A Thermal Spray Coatings

In January of this year, an astounding new development in the world of thermal spray coatings was unannounced. In the future, it could shake things up considerably.

www.thermalspray.com

Please read this .

And few pages back I have posted few pictures of the materials , further iterations are also Developed will post when my lap is ready. Hope we can pull this technology off , that's why RR and others are now interested in JVs , purely my opinion . May be money also a factor.

 

[Karthi]

Advanced FADEC system.A-FADEC

Afterburner CFD and the real one

 

[BON PLAN]

Recommending for anyone wondering what breakthroughs might be required in the 110kN engine & beyond. Engine design is truly a black art at the intersection of physics, precise 3-D manufacturing, flow analysis and materials.

ABSOLUTELY !
I had the opportunity 25 years ago to speak with the father of the SNECMA M88 (Mr André BARBOT), at the wedding of his son, a collegue of mine : he said me it's like sorcery. Only a couple of guys in the whole world have the skill, inspiration and experience to be able to fine tune a fighter engine. It's probably an explanation for the relative failure of Kaveri : India lacks this kind of sorcerer because not enough R&D effort.
Not to speak of Turkey. They were in trouble to developp a 1500HP engine for their main battle tank, and it's not as difficult as a fighter engine from some magnitude.

 

[MonaLazy]

Thrust to weight ratio is the problem. Kaveri was about 200kg heavier

Gathering empty weight and fuel capacity from

What are the specs of Tejas Mk 1A ?

Joy Bhowmick's answer: General characteristics * Crew: 1 * Payload: 3,500 kg (7,716 lb) external stores * Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in) * Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in) * Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in) * Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft²) * Empty weight: 6,560 kg (14,300 lb) * Loaded weight: 9,800...

qr.ae

weight of K9 kaveri from
HTTP://[email protected]/forums/threads/gtre-kaveri-engine.93/post-188500

thrust of -IN20 from

https://www.geaviation.com/sites/default/files/datasheet-F404-Family.pdf

T/W calculator from

Thrust to Weight Ratio Calculator

Estimate the thrust to weight ratio for real aircraft or your designs using the thrust to weight ratio calculator.

www.omnicalculator.com

this is what the numbers look like
K9 Kaveri 6560-1072+1235+2458=9181
empty weight - weight of F404 + weight of K9 Kaveri + full fuel
52kN/81kN
.578/.9

GE F404 6560+2458=9018
empty weight + full fuel
48.9(?)/84kN
.553/.95

I understand a heavier engine will guzzle more fuel and run higher temperatures in the core but the T/W difference between F404 and K9 is in the second place of decimal! Is that reason enough for rejecting K9?

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Gathering empty weight and fuel capacity from

What are the specs of Tejas Mk 1A ?

Joy Bhowmick's answer: General characteristics * Crew: 1 * Payload: 3,500 kg (7,716 lb) external stores * Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in) * Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in) * Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in) * Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft²) * Empty weight: 6,560 kg (14,300 lb) * Loaded weight: 9,800...

qr.ae

weight of K9 kaveri from
HTTP://[email protected]/forums/threads/gtre-kaveri-engine.93/post-188500

thrust of -IN20 from

https://www.geaviation.com/sites/default/files/datasheet-F404-Family.pdf

T/W calculator from

Thrust to Weight Ratio Calculator

Estimate the thrust to weight ratio for real aircraft or your designs using the thrust to weight ratio calculator.

www.omnicalculator.com

this is what the numbers look like
K9 Kaveri 6560-1072+1235+2458=9181
empty weight - weight of F404 + weight of K9 Kaveri + full fuel
52kN/81kN
.578/.9

GE F404 6560+2458=9018
empty weight + full fuel
48.9(?)/84kN
.553/.95

I understand a heavier engine will guzzle more fuel and run higher temperatures in the core but the T/W difference between F404 and K9 is in the second place of decimal! Is that reason enough for rejecting K9?

True, that reason alone might not be enough. I was looking at the thrust to weight from an engine perspective, and remembered the thrust to weight ratio of 9 for GE-404 and 7.8 for Kaveri. Actually 9 was thrust to weight of GE-414

Lets just hope they get a good enough specific fuel consumption. Kaveri has a pressure ratio of just 21:1. GE-404 has it at 28:1. Should mean that Kaveri ends up guzzling more fuel.

 

[Vamsi]

True, that reason alone might not be enough. I was looking at the thrust to weight from an engine perspective, and remembered the thrust to weight ratio of 9 for GE-404 and 7.8 for Kaveri. Actually 9 was thrust to weight of GE-414

Lets just hope they get a good enough specific fuel consumption. Kaveri has a pressure ratio of just 21:1. GE-404 has it at 28:1. Should mean that Kaveri ends up guzzling more fuel.

I think you have read that post in Strategic Frontier forum right? They are developing a new High Pressure Compressor , which will increase the Overall pressure ratio from 21 to 27

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

I think you have read that post in Strategic Frontier forum right? They are developing a new High Pressure Compressor , which will increase the Overall pressure ratio from 21 to 27

Are developing or have already developed? If they are developing then it will take more time.
Reminds me, the new fan should also lead to some improvement in pressure ratio.

 

[SavageKing456]

There is a lot of research going on , I believe we have solved most of the problems regarding Kaveri Engine , need to go back to the flight testing for further evaluation . Ground trials are some what succesful.

In pics study regarding Afterburner. GTRE/DRDO made significant progress in Materials and thermal coatings atleast 20 research papers are in my laptop , but my laptop stopped working so can't share with you guys .

Thermal Spray Coatings From India Of Interest To NASA | A&A Thermal Spray Coatings

In January of this year, an astounding new development in the world of thermal spray coatings was unannounced. In the future, it could shake things up considerably.

www.thermalspray.com

Please read this .

And few pages back I have posted few pictures of the materials , further iterations are also Developed will post when my lap is ready. Hope we can pull this technology off , that's why RR and others are now interested in JVs , purely my opinion . May be money also a factor.

View attachment 117189View attachment 117190View attachment 117191View attachment 117192View attachment 117193View attachment 117194

Kaveri afterburner will be redesigned
The old one is not sufficient
Also the combustion chamber is redesigned,Its a different engine now
But we don't have a testbed

 

[rodeo]

Not to speak of Turkey. They were in trouble to developp a 1500HP engine for their main battle tank, and it's not as difficult as a fighter engine from some magnitude.

The BATU(1500hp, for Altay MBT) engine is on test stand. We have a working prototype and according to the plan, we'll integrate it with the tank in 2024. In the mean time we'll use a Korean engine.

I don't think equating one company's engineering might with another's is right. BMC Power(the company that's been developing the engine) is a new company. They're building BATU, UTKU(1000hp, on the test stand), AZRA(550 hp, integrated to a vehicle), TTZA(350hp, also on a vehicle).

I'm not negating any of the facts you said. It's just, you can't map the companies one on one. Their work, engineers and the management is different.

 

[Vamsi]

Are developing or have already developed? If they are developing then it will take more time.
Reminds me, the new fan should also lead to some improvement in pressure ratio.

HPC is still under development and the pressure ratio of new fan will also be improved

 

[Mantospace]

@firestarter bro can you confirm the same in Strategic Frontier forum whether GTRE intends to do a flight demonstration next year ?

If it happens it would be a great achvmnt of India.

 

[no smoking]

Does GTRE have high altitude test facility (I don't mean Flying testbed) like ISRO did. ISRO tests their rocket engines in a High altitude test facility to mimic high altitude conditions. Do we have any similar kind of facility at GTRE?

Different thing. The high altitude test facility is used to test the engine's performance in different altitudes, different speeds and different weather conditions. Each test may take more than hours. The techs level, power consumption and costs are much higher than rocket engine.
It took both Japan and China more than 3b dollars and 15 years to build such a facility.

 

[Mantospace]

If suppose kaveri engine got success, than this will used in civilian aeroplanes ? But India also need to secure this technology

 

[Vamsi]

Kaveri screech paper

Design and Development of Aerospace Vehicles and Propulsion Systems

This book presents selected papers presented in the Symposium on Applied Aerodynamics and Design of Aerospace Vehicles (SAROD 2018), which was jointly organized by Aeronautical Development Agency (the nodal agency for the design and development of combat aircraft in India), Gas-Turbine Research...

books.google.co.in

 

[Kalkioftoday]

Is using a flying testbed a common practice in engine development. I thought engines already have a waiting application to be tested on the air. TS1400 for instance will fly on T625(GOKBEY) helicopter in 2023. Doesn't Kaveri have an application?

Yes, other than a land based fixed testbed you must need a flying testbed to validate everything on that new engine. Not every country can build this kind of testbed, these testbeds are one of the engineering marvel of their own. I've heard once Kaveri had some vibration related issues, our fixed test bed couldn't even notice the problem but when we took the engine to germany and put it on a MTU's engine test rig and we found a lot of hidden issues of Kaveri. Also these platforms comes under startegic systems so not every country gonna sell us these state of the art testbed. We are soon gonna form a JV with Rolls Royce (most probably) for a 110 KN class engine and i'm pretty sure we are going to get our own flying testbed from that JV.
Pic 1: Rolls Royce engine testbed.
Pic 2: Kaveri on a russian IL76 testbed.
Pic 3: Prat and Whitney testbed

 

[Spitfire9]

Different thing. The high altitude test facility is used to test the engine's performance in different altitudes, different speeds and different weather conditions. Each test may take more than hours. The techs level, power consumption and costs are much higher than rocket engine.
It took both Japan and China more than 3b dollars and 15 years to build such a facility.

Any reason why no flying test bed has been built? Yes, it would cost money but it was known from the time Kaveri was initiated that it would need to be tested on a flying test bed. The usual story of absence of planning and commitment, I suppose.

IIRC A340's were 2 a penny a few years back. They were fitted with ~110kN engines. Buying 2 frames would have cost well below $100 million IIRC. Would be suitable to test any new 110kN engine for AMCA, too.