Kaveri Engine

Spitfire9

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
795
Likes
2,201
Country flag
I'm curious about something - why the wIIRC eight of an engine is seen as being so important. If an engine provides 20,000lbs of thrust, why does it matter so much whether it weighs 2,200lbs or 2,500lbs? I can see that one engine increases empty aircraft weight by 300lbs compared to the other but that is not such a big deal, is it? IIRC Kaveri was reported to be 100lbs+ overweight and that was a matter of concern. Why?

PS Interesting video on the GEnX. I recommend watching, too.
 

MonaLazy

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Messages
593
Likes
3,440
Country flag
why the weight of an engine is seen as being so important
increase weight -> increase fuel consumption (battle higher inertia)
consequence- lower range, higher temperatures in engine core which need better materials or alternately early material failure in compressor blades & increased emissions of potent greenhouse gas like NOx (rise exponentially with flame temperature) .. lose-lose all in all
 

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
4,518
Likes
1,300
Country flag
I'm curious about something - why the wIIRC eight of an engine is seen as being so important. If an engine provides 20,000lbs of thrust, why does it matter so much whether it weighs 2,200lbs or 2,500lbs? I can see that one engine increases empty aircraft weight by 300lbs compared to the other but that is not such a big deal, is it? IIRC Kaveri was reported to be 100lbs+ overweight and that was a matter of concern. Why?

PS Interesting video on the GEnX. I recommend watching, too.
When your engine is overweight, the rear part of the jet body becomes heavier, then the whole body weight balance was broken. In order to re-balance it, you either reduce the structure weight of the rear part to compensate that, or increase the front weight to match it. The first option requires new material and will affect the other part of body, generally you will end up re-designing the whole structure. The later option will make the jet much heavier than original design, as the result you need the engine to provide higher thrust which will increase the engine's weight further.
 

rodeo

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2021
Messages
55
Likes
178
Country flag
And... TFX is not a 5th gen. The weapons are under the wings. it's a 4.99 gen at best, according to LM.
I called the guys. Told about it. They updated the design and they'll send a plaquette and a kilo of Turkish delights for saving them from the trouble. Address please?
 

Vamsi

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Messages
640
Likes
3,180
Country flag
This is from the description section of the Wiki page;

The aircraft has a 5.5+ tons of Maximum Takeoff Weight (MTOW) while 1500 kg+ of those are composed for its payload. MIUS is equipped with a single turbofan.[1]

According to data shared by the company, the Combat Unmanned Aircraft System (MIUS) will have an operational altitude of 40,000 ft (12,000 m), a take-off weight of 5.5 tons, a payload of 1.5 tons, and an ammunition carrying capacity of 1 ton. While the MIUS-A will be close to supersonic using the Ukrainian AI-25TLT engine, the MIUS-B will be supersonic using the Ukrainian AI-322F engine.[5] & Turkish TEI/TF-6000 engine[6] The MIUS-B will have a 2,5 times more powerful engine, making it significantly different specification wise than the MIUS-A.[7][8] MIUS is expected to launch from the TCG Anadolu LHD without any help of a catapult system.[9] The CEO of Baykar, Selçuk Bayraktar, said that the MIUS is expected to fly in 2023,[1] adding that a jet-powered UAV was a ''12-year-long dream.''[10]


Please go to the wiki page to read it the features and mission description. It's not long.
Al-322F is similar to our HTFE-25 in dry thrust . With max take off weight of 5.5T, payload 1.5T and if we assume a fuel fraction of 0.6 ,then it will have max internal fuel capacity of no more than 1500kg. I think it's pretty good
 

rodeo

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2021
Messages
55
Likes
178
Country flag
Al-322F is similar to our HTFE-25 in dry thrust . With max take off weight of 5.5T, payload 1.5T and if we assume a fuel fraction of 0.6 ,then it will have max internal fuel capacity of no more than 1500kg. I think it's pretty good
AI322f will be a interim solution till TF-6000(6000 lb dry thrust) is ready, afaik.
Wow. Didn't know about HTFE-25. Very exciting! I've just read the Wiki page. But one thing confuses me about Indian engine development programs. The page says first run is in 2015 but there are only two engines built. It's the same with HTSE-1200. Only one prototype. Why is that? Don't the engineers iterate on the design? Be it the update of the design or the update of the manufacturing processes, to me the logical thing is to build more and more engines as you mature the engine and as you learn more about it. Or maybe the Wiki page is not uptated often. TEI, for instance, run TS1400 in 2020 for the first time and they produced 6 prototypes by now and it's in 8th design iteration. They're running them in parallel to do more tests and prepare it for its certification. Is this a wrong approach?

Please tell me more about Indian engine programs. Just type the names of them I will google them myself.
 

rodeo

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2021
Messages
55
Likes
178
Country flag
Does Turkey have the IPR of the Focal Plannar Arrays that go into these IIR sensors?
I answered two questions about EOTS specs and FPA production. Since I'm not very familiar with the technology, can you comment on them? Are they any good?
 

Okabe Rintarou

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
1,536
Likes
7,274
Country flag
AI322f will be a interim solution till TF-6000(6000 lb dry thrust) is ready, afaik.
Wow. Didn't know about HTFE-25. Very exciting! I've just read the Wiki page. But one thing confuses me about Indian engine development programs. The page says first run is in 2015 but there are only two engines built. It's the same with HTSE-1200. Only one prototype. Why is that? Don't the engineers iterate on the design? Be it the update of the design or the update of the manufacturing processes, to me the logical thing is to build more and more engines as you mature the engine and as you learn more about it. Or maybe the Wiki page is not uptated often. TEI, for instance, run TS1400 in 2020 for the first time and they produced 6 prototypes by now and it's in 8th design iteration. They're running them in parallel to do more tests and prepare it for its certification. Is this a wrong approach?

Please tell me more about Indian engine programs. Just type the names of them I will google them myself.
Five LSPs of HTSE-1200 are being built as we speak. Don't know how many design iterations they did, its a function of how much you can get done with your CFD and FEA packages as well. If your mathematical models are flawed, you might need more design iterations during hardware realization phase.

I answered two questions about EOTS specs and FPA production. Since I'm not very familiar with the technology, can you comment on them? Are they any good?
Scant info, but seems like its decent in uncooled sensors. Problem is you need cooled sensors for most serious applications, like in TFX. And there, you've only just started, though you've got plenty of time. QWIP, etc are good for uncooled sensors, but their performance in case of cooled sensors is no match for MCT. As for Super Lattice detectors, that is a promising future tech but not matured yet. Good that you've started working on it, though I wonder why. Main advantage of super lattice detectors over MCT I know is that they might not need the cryo-cooler. But that is required for a very specific application: Space Based Sensors for Hypersonic Missile Defence.

This makes me ask the question: Is Turkey working on any space weaponry? Like co-orbital killer sats? Or any other space based ew capability?
 

rodeo

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2021
Messages
55
Likes
178
Country flag
Five LSPs of HTSE-1200 are being built as we speak. Don't know how many design iterations they did, its a function of how much you can get done with your CFD and FEA packages as well. If your mathematical models are flawed, you might need more design iterations during hardware realization phase.


Scant info, but seems like its decent in uncooled sensors. Problem is you need cooled sensors for most serious applications, like in TFX. And there, you've only just started, though you've got plenty of time. QWIP, etc are good for uncooled sensors, but their performance in case of cooled sensors is no match for MCT. As for Super Lattice detectors, that is a promising future tech but not matured yet. Good that you've started working on it, though I wonder why. Main advantage of super lattice detectors over MCT I know is that they might not need the cryo-cooler. But that is required for a very specific application: Space Based Sensors for Hypersonic Missile Defence.

This makes me ask the question: Is Turkey working on any space weaponry? Like co-orbital killer sats? Or any other space based ew capability?
I'm sorry, i don't know what LSP means. Do you have more jet engine programs, like for cruise missiles etc? Also what about timelines?

And the answer to your question is, I don't thin so.
Can you also comment on EOTS specs, if that's not too much to ask?
 

Vamsi

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Messages
640
Likes
3,180
Country flag
I'm sorry, i don't know what LSP means. Do you have more jet engine programs, like for cruise missiles etc? Also what about timelines?

And the answer to your question is, I don't thin so.
Can you also comment on EOTS specs, if that's not too much to ask?
LSP- Limited Series Production.

For cruise missiles we have Manik engine, also called Small TurboFan Engine

For target drones and CATS warrior unmanned wingman we have PATE-7
 

Okabe Rintarou

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
1,536
Likes
7,274
Country flag
I'm sorry, i don't know what LSP means. Do you have more jet engine programs, like for cruise missiles etc? Also what about timelines?

And the answer to your question is, I don't thin so.
Can you also comment on EOTS specs, if that's not too much to ask?
Apart from ptae-7, Manik, HTSE-1200 and HTFE-25, there is also a smaller engine being developed by Private Indian company: Kalyani. Don't even remember their names lol. Mostly for drones I think.
Let me see....these ones:-
https://idrw.org/kcti-to-display-indigenous-120kgf-and-160kgf-gas-turbine-engine-at-aero-india-2021/
Other than that, the main effort of the country is still directed at developing Kaveri engine. Which reminds me, @not so dravidian , you were saying they solved the screech issue on Kaveri? Where is the link man?

You gave me IIR sensor specs for EOTS. Those appear decent when achieved. Not that I am an expert. I am more into materials and mechanics
 

rodeo

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2021
Messages
55
Likes
178
Country flag
Apart from ptae-7, Manik, HTSE-1200 and HTFE-25, there is also a smaller engine being developed by Private Indian company: Kalyani. Don't even remember their names lol. Mostly for drones I think.
Let me see....these ones:-
https://idrw.org/kcti-to-display-indigenous-120kgf-and-160kgf-gas-turbine-engine-at-aero-india-2021/
Other than that, the main effort of the country is still directed at developing Kaveri engine. Which reminds me, @not so dravidian , you were saying they solved the screech issue on Kaveri? Where is the link man?

You gave me IIR sensor specs for EOTS. Those appear decent when achieved. Not that I am an expert. I am more into materials and mechanics
You're very knowledgeable. Thanks for the answers. Will check them out.
 

not so dravidian

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2021
Messages
679
Likes
3,080
Country flag
Apart from ptae-7, Manik, HTSE-1200 and HTFE-25, there is also a smaller engine being developed by Private Indian company: Kalyani. Don't even remember their names lol. Mostly for drones I think.
Let me see....these ones:-
https://idrw.org/kcti-to-display-indigenous-120kgf-and-160kgf-gas-turbine-engine-at-aero-india-2021/
Other than that, the main effort of the country is still directed at developing Kaveri engine. Which reminds me, @not so dravidian , you were saying they solved the screech issue on Kaveri? Where is the link man?

You gave me IIR sensor specs for EOTS. Those appear decent when achieved. Not that I am an expert. I am more into materials and mechanics

sorry my man, was busy in college!!

here's the link

https://www.**************.org/forums/threads/gtre-kaveri-engine.93/page-40
 

not so dravidian

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2021
Messages
679
Likes
3,080
Country flag
Last edited:

Okabe Rintarou

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
1,536
Likes
7,274
Country flag
strategic front DOT org/forums/threads/gtre-kaveri-engine.93/page-40
Damn. They really did solve it. With this the wet Kaveri engine should be ready (for further trials). As we speak, they might have installed the modified flame holder in the Kaveri and would be ground testing it. Any issues that emerge now will likely occur during flight tests on the testbed. Wonder what the life of engine and MTBO will be. Somebody needs to ask this question at GTRE stall in DefExpo next year.
@MonaLazy , you hearing this? We should post this good news on Kaveri thread.
 

Lonewolf

Psychopathic Neighbour
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2021
Messages
4,872
Likes
15,400
Country flag
strategic front DOT org/forums/threads/gtre-kaveri-engine.93/page-40
Damn. They really did solve it. With this the wet Kaveri engine should be ready (for further trials). As we speak, they might have installed the modified flame holder in the Kaveri and would be ground testing it. Any issues that emerge now will likely occur during flight tests on the testbed. Wonder what the life of engine and MTBO will be. Somebody needs to ask this question at GTRE stall in DefExpo next year.
@MonaLazy , you hearing this? We should post this good news on Kaveri thread.
Isn't the def expo in March ?? I want to visit it ,but don't know of civilian visitors will be allowed or not
 

Abdus Salem killed

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2021
Messages
2,440
Likes
9,559
strategic front DOT org/forums/threads/gtre-kaveri-engine.93/page-40
Damn. They really did solve it. With this the wet Kaveri engine should be ready (for further trials). As we speak, they might have installed the modified flame holder in the Kaveri and would be ground testing it. Any issues that emerge now will likely occur during flight tests on the testbed. Wonder what the life of engine and MTBO will be. Somebody needs to ask this question at GTRE stall in DefExpo next year.
@MonaLazy , you hearing this? We should post this good news on Kaveri thread.
Meaning how far is kaveri
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

Articles

Top