Kaveri Engine

MonaLazy

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Wasn't you saying:"get them the best subject specific notes in town now (GE EPE) so they pass this academic year with flying colours "?

If GE doesn't provide TOT, what you learn?
the best subject specific notes = GE 414 EPE (available in the very near future)
skill to create the same high quality notes = skill to create a GE 414 EPE level engine w/ external help

Comprende?

You do realise that most of the news in your source are 2014. And now is 2021, nothing happened.
This tell you something.
Find me a more recent source that is as authentic and we can re-caliberate. Until then this is the best we have. Also the same article found mention in a very recent tweet by one of the mods at BR. Go figure.
 

no smoking

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the best subject specific notes = GE 414 EPE (available in the very near future)
skill to create the same high quality notes = skill to create a GE 414 EPE level engine w/ external help

Comprende?
Buying a GE 414 EPE without any TOT doesn't create any skill for you to get the skill you need. That is not notes, that is the answer.

Besides, what you suggest are:
1. buying GE engine to get next india jet to fly;
2. In the meantime, buying external knowledge to build your own EPE level engine from other source.

Check your pocket first.

Find me a more recent source that is as authentic and we can re-caliberate. Until then this is the best we have. Also the same article found mention in a very recent tweet by one of the mods at BR. Go figure.
Isn't that obvious? After 7 years, none of those claims came true. They are not the best you have, they are the worst because they are wrong.

And if you read carefully about the last one, they are Kaveri Derivative Engine(Dry Kaveri).
Do you understand what that means? The problem of Kaveri in 2014 was much much bigger than all your source revealed.
 

MonaLazy

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Buying a GE 414 EPE without any TOT doesn't create any skill for you to get the skill you need. That is not notes, that is the answer.
Madam/Sir seriously! are you just belaboring a point for sadistic pleasure? Or is English not your first or even second language? In which case only your comprehension issues may be over looked.

It is you that started with a weird analogy- I am only trying to extend it to fit my PoV so it can get into your nut easy, but you seemed to have gotten even more off tracked and confused.

So forget the notes. Forget the children, Sample this- a reliable & powerful jet engine is a precious resource we need as a nation. It is better for India to start off today pursuing 414 'enhanced' level of tech so in 3-4 years we have an off the shelf 110kN engine which is a drop fit for the 98kN 414 which the Mk2 is being designed around. Can you even imagine what it could do for the flying capabilities of Tejas Mk2 and even AMCA Mk1? Or is it too hard to fathom?? Of course, keep all your lust for ToT aside please while you process this.

Besides, what you suggest are:
1. buying GE engine to get next india jet to fly;
2. In the meantime, buying external knowledge to build your own EPE level engine from other source.

Check your pocket first.
What is any discussion without perspective? Just faff. $3B is definitely huge for average Reshma/Ramakant like you & me but it is no big deal for a country like India.
  • $3B is infra investment India has almost lost to the TB in Af- without breaking a sweat.
  • In the week ended September 3, the forex reserves surged by USD 8.895 billion to USD 642.453 billion. ~$ 9B in a week!
  • India seized $2.7bn of heroin from Afghanistan at Mundra port very recently
References:

So yes, I am exactly advocating both points 1 & 2. Since we get the desired 110kN engine much earlier in time we can afford to spread the investments in own effort over many more years into the future cushioning that financial blow.

Isn't that obvious? After 7 years, none of those claims came true. They are not the best you have, they are the worst because they are wrong.

And if you read carefully about the last one, they are Kaveri Derivative Engine(Dry Kaveri).
Do you understand what that means? The problem of Kaveri in 2014 was much much bigger than all your source revealed.
A classic case of shooting the messenger. Why are you hell bent on discrediting BR?

Unless you bring up a better source (or are yourself privy to GTRE inside news) will cease any discussion on the veracity of this one. You are merely finger pointing without contributing anything worthwhile.

In any case what are you trying to get at really? Kaveri has problems that is known. We are looking beyond that at the next iteration of fighter planes and how best they may be engined.
 

Spitfire9

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I read in the article:

'Transfer of technology for the aircraft engine was part of the offset commitment in the Rafale contract as well. The proposal dealt with technology transfer for the development of an indigenous engine for the LCA, but it has not been fulfilled by Safran yet. The delay was slammed by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) last year. '

Forget the new project, why the hell has India not come down on SAFRAN like a ton of bricks if they have not done what (reportedly above) they were supposed to do - transfer technology for an engine for Tejas?

Is this a case of India being walked all over by a French company and doing bugger all about it? Or did India not sign an enforceable contract where offsets were concerned?
 

Covfefe

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Is this a case of India being walked all over by a French company and doing bugger all about it? Or did India not sign an enforceable contract where offsets were concerned
Only the amount of offset is mentioned in the contracts usually with a vague sense of direction in which they expect the foreign partner to do so. If Safran made revenue of USD 1 Billion from Rafale sale to India, they are obligated to reinvest 300$ million back in India(assuming 30% offset) and that's guaranteed by the Government of France- GoI cannot dictate the terms as to the exact nature of reinvestment. Given that more Rafale orders are on the anvil, and that it's not a very smart thing to gaslight the engine supplier of your topline fighter jets, GoI might be trying to hedge between RR and Safran to see where they can get the better deal. If Safran agrees to an IP transfer(something that RR is committing to), GoI needs to spend lesser out of its pocket for the engine development else they can always push for some dumb subcontracting job program (like subassembly/component fabrication) using the French guarantees.
 

Spitfire9

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Only the amount of offset is mentioned in the contracts usually with a vague sense of direction in which they expect the foreign partner to do so. If Safran made revenue of USD 1 Billion from Rafale sale to India, they are obligated to reinvest 300$ million back in India(assuming 30% offset) and that's guaranteed by the Government of France- GoI cannot dictate the terms as to the exact nature of reinvestment. Given that more Rafale orders are on the anvil, and that it's not a very smart thing to gaslight the engine supplier of your topline fighter jets, GoI might be trying to hedge between RR and Safran to see where they can get the better deal. If Safran agrees to an IP transfer(something that RR is committing to), GoI needs to spend lesser out of its pocket for the engine development else they can always push for some dumb subcontracting job program (like subassembly/component fabrication) using the French guarantees.
From what you say, there was no stipulation in the contract for SAFRAN to provide the ToT to make Kaveri work at a known cost. Why was that not made part of the contract by India?
 

Covfefe

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From what you say, there was no stipulation in the contract for SAFRAN to provide the ToT to make Kaveri work at a known cost. Why was that not made part of the contract by India?
Since the contract document and details are classified one can only speculate. But I like to think of it as an undue stretch on a fighter sales contract. How could have the exact conditionalities for the engine technology program been worked out exactly in terms of the workshare, cost-share, and the subsequent revenue division back in 2015? It takes a lot of nitty-gritty to draft a contract that has sovereign guarantees on both ends, and holding your fighter procurement to such complexity would only delay the process further(which has already been a quagmire since 2004 RFI of MMRCA program).

Plus, offset from the engine supplies of 36 jets is too little for any meaningful tech transfer around Jet engine technology. A single testing facility alone costs billions.
 

Tang

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I read in the article:

'Transfer of technology for the aircraft engine was part of the offset commitment in the Rafale contract as well. The proposal dealt with technology transfer for the development of an indigenous engine for the LCA, but it has not been fulfilled by Safran yet. The delay was slammed by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) last year. '

Forget the new project, why the hell has India not come down on SAFRAN like a ton of bricks if they have not done what (reportedly above) they were supposed to do - transfer technology for an engine for Tejas?

Is this a case of India being walked all over by a French company and doing bugger all about it? Or did India not sign an enforceable contract where offsets were concerned?
French have been unreliable in case of ToT from the start.
 

Chinmoy

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From what you say, there was no stipulation in the contract for SAFRAN to provide the ToT to make Kaveri work at a known cost. Why was that not made part of the contract by India?
126 Rafale deal got stuck when you tried to dictate the deal.

Nowhere in offset clause it has been mentioned that Safran would invest in engine technology. DRDO asked Safran to help on engine development and they had agreed on that, but then again its the investment part from our side which gave them an excuse to backtrack. So as per offset clause, they are obliged to invest 30% of contract value in India, but where they would invest them is their decision. We can't dictate them.
 

FactsPlease

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126 Rafale deal got stuck when you tried to dictate the deal.

Nowhere in offset clause it has been mentioned that Safran would invest in engine technology. DRDO asked Safran to help on engine development and they had agreed on that, but then again its the investment part from our side which gave them an excuse to backtrack. So as per offset clause, they are obliged to invest 30% of contract value in India, but where they would invest them is their decision. We can't dictate them.
So French had NOT been squeezed enough? :)

Joke aside, they supposed to rethink France global "position" now. If they don't, they will be in further trouble, soon!!
 

Chinmoy

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So French had NOT been squeezed enough? :)

Joke aside, they supposed to rethink France global "position" now. If they don't, they will be in further trouble, soon!!
As far as weapon manufacturing is concerned, France is nearly autonomous. They are not on the list of importers. Even on JV front, mostly they do shy away. The reason why they get pushed out every now and then.

As far as new geopolitical alliance and changes, they might change their stance. But against popular belief, you should look into the Shakti engine scenario with India.
 

Tang

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126 Rafale deal got stuck when you tried to dictate the deal.

Nowhere in offset clause it has been mentioned that Safran would invest in engine technology. DRDO asked Safran to help on engine development and they had agreed on that, but then again its the investment part from our side which gave them an excuse to backtrack. So as per offset clause, they are obliged to invest 30% of contract value in India, but where they would invest them is their decision. We can't dictate them.
50%
 

Spitfire9

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126 Rafale deal got stuck when you tried to dictate the deal.

Nowhere in offset clause it has been mentioned that Safran would invest in engine technology. DRDO asked Safran to help on engine development and they had agreed on that, but then again its the investment part from our side which gave them an excuse to backtrack. So as per offset clause, they are obliged to invest 30% of contract value in India, but where they would invest them is their decision. We can't dictate them.
What I heard was that the Rafale deal got stuck over HAL not wanting to take responsibility for the quality of its assembly work. Sort of "We assemble it but if we get it wrong, that's your fault."

What is Safran going to invest in as per the offset agreement?
 

Chinmoy

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What I heard was that the Rafale deal got stuck over HAL not wanting to take responsibility for the quality of its assembly work. Sort of "We assemble it but if we get it wrong, that's your fault."

What is Safran going to invest in as per the offset agreement?
Yes. When you try to dictate the deal, it would get stuck in one way or other.

Safran could invest in anyway. They could invest in setting up non critical engine part assembly. So where it has been mentioned that they would have to invest in core engine tech and give us ToT.
 

Spitfire9

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So where it has been mentioned that they would have to invest in core engine tech and give us ToT.
It is pretty clear in the article in theprint.in


'Transfer of technology for the aircraft engine was part of the offset commitment in the Rafale contract as well. The proposal dealt with technology transfer for the development of an indigenous engine for the LCA...'

Perhaps their reporter got it wrong.

In any event, too late for Tejas now except as a drop in F404 replacement in the future.
 

Chinmoy

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It is pretty clear in the article in theprint.in


'Transfer of technology for the aircraft engine was part of the offset commitment in the Rafale contract as well. The proposal dealt with technology transfer for the development of an indigenous engine for the LCA...'

Perhaps their reporter got it wrong.

In any event, too late for Tejas now except as a drop in F404 replacement in the future.
The Print. They are good at twisting facts as per their wish.

Replying to a question in the Lok Sabha, Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman said, "The license manufacturing/transfer of technology was not sought as it would not have been cost effective for a order of this size."
https://www.business-standard.com/a...-been-cost-effective-govt-118020701816_1.html
 

Trololo

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I read in the article:

'Transfer of technology for the aircraft engine was part of the offset commitment in the Rafale contract as well. The proposal dealt with technology transfer for the development of an indigenous engine for the LCA, but it has not been fulfilled by Safran yet. The delay was slammed by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) last year. '

Forget the new project, why the hell has India not come down on SAFRAN like a ton of bricks if they have not done what (reportedly above) they were supposed to do - transfer technology for an engine for Tejas?

Is this a case of India being walked all over by a French company and doing bugger all about it? Or did India not sign an enforceable contract where offsets were concerned?
You cannot come down like a ton of bricks because you are now strategically locked with the Rafale, and consequently Safran. You can't throw the Rafales away. You really don't want to buy an American fighter because of fear of sanctions and new training/setup. Typhoon is a risk with human rights havaldar Germany in the mix as well as duplicitous Italy. So you don't really have much of a choice.
 

samsaptaka

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& the country must understand that a world class engine in 10 years is not possible.
On the whole a very good plan and advise for people shouting privatization is the key (including me). But can it be done in 10 years if we consider the existing 'progress' on Kaveri ?
 

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