Kaveri Engine

shade

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OT, and this is a Chinese shill website, but it makes a valid point about how Japan would behave if push came to shove.
This is not the high-energy Japan of WW2.
 

johnq

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What I don't get is, if they had a Kaveri engine that was working fine in every way except after-burner, why didn't they just use it to create a whole fleet of subsonic aircraft? You could make a fleet of subsonic bombers carrying cruise missiles, a fleet of refuelling tankers, a fleet of AWACS and ELINT aircraft, a fleet of large tank carrier aircraft, etc all being powered by a non-afterburning Kaveri. And you could do it very cheaply by manufacturing the engines and aircraft in India in very large numbers. It would create hundreds of thousands of jobs, as well as a massive military industrial complex. You could even sell these aircraft to other countries for massive profits.
 

no smoking

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Some wannabe superpower shouldn't mock the Japanese,
Where did I mock the Japanese? Pointing out the Japanese weakness is mocking? How old are you?

they have experienced what the Japanese are capable off...
Yes, a country, during her strongest period, still couldn't even beat a weakest China.

Soon the Japanese will amend their pacifist constitution and we will see them militarising again.... Militarily strong Japan is good for us...
More importantly, they are begging Americans to protect them.
 

no smoking

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Err. No offense. But you are talking of a country which had an military industrial base before the world war 2
and now it can't?
Any surprise? We are in quickly developing world, any country stops her R&D investment in certain sector for 10 years, her knowledge & skills will become obsolete, not to mention 70 years interuption.

People always say Japan was poor than India in 40's. True, but Japan.and Germany always had a base in industry before the war. They had aircraft carriers in 30's and we are still sitting with one for 13 years.
Well, that doesn't change the fact that their carriers now are full of foreign key equipment.

Japan has not been allowed to develop technologies in the past and it's true. Atleast till 80's, US was still suspicious of Japan's intention. When Japan was leapfrogging in microprocessors, US brought in an act targetting Japanese companies. They had always kept them in check informally. Only now they have realised in the folly of their policy in light of China's military development. They realised Japan has to form its own independent defence industrial complex to form an offensive capability against the Chinese which in some ways can make US Navy's job easier in case of an war. These are few countries which are considered de facto nuclear powers . Those who can make an bomb so fast if they can. And Japan and Germany is among them. For reasons we all know they don't make one. Same for Japan. If they concentrate on making a jet engine, they sure can make one. The problem is their industries already are in jV with most Us companies, sharing patents that it would be tough to work on new engine from scratch.
No matter what you believe, the fact is neither Japan, nor German has an fully independent military R&D department as US, Russia, China. Both of them have to rely on US or other European countries for certain key technologies. So, US shows no interest to help them to get independence but making them a component contractors.

Just look at Japan, at beginning, she planned to have F35 manufactured domestically. But later it turned out the domestic F35 is far more expensive than imported one (thanks to the overpriced US export), they have to give up.
 

johnq

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LOL It is amusing to see that the Chinese are so threatened by India getting an indigenous engine for its aircraft, that they are on full gaslighting mode in Indian forums. :rofl:

Since the Kaveri engine is fully functional already in dry (non-afterburning mode), I suggest also making a fleet of A-10 like close-air-support aircraft (with low wing loading for high altitude) with 2 non-afterburning Kaveri engines to support the Indian soldiers in the mountains. Of course India should also make fleets of AWACS, refuelling aircraft, bombers, troop/tank transport aircraft, UCAVs, spy UAVs, ELINT aircraft, antisubmarine aircraft, etc by using the fully functional non-afterburning Kaveri engines, and then export them for profit. Due to cheaper manufacturing costs and economies of scale, Indian aircraft fitted with Kaveri engines will be very competitive.
 

Synergy

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somebody please educate me a bit, thrust of M88-2 is 50kN/75kN, F404 is 48.9kN/78.7kN and Kaveri is 52kN/81kN. but M88 and F404 is flying and Kaveri is cancelled for being underpowered. what am I missing?
 

Arihant

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somebody please educate me a bit, thrust of M88-2 is 50kN/75kN, F404 is 48.9kN/78.7kN and Kaveri is 52kN/81kN. but M88 and F404 is flying and Kaveri is cancelled for being underpowered. what am I missing?
I read long time ago, Kaveri have some unusual vibration problem which can be solved by experts in engine tech. That's the reason.
 

Dessert Storm

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OT, and this is a Chinese shill website, but it makes a valid point about how Japan would behave if push came to shove.
This is not the high-energy Japan of WW2.
Don't underestimate Suga. He's that just in name.
 

Deathstar

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Where did I mock the Japanese? Pointing out the Japanese weakness is mocking? How old are you?



Yes, a country, during her strongest period, still couldn't even beat a weakest China.



More importantly, they are begging Americans to protect them.
You should thank the Americans and their nuclear weapons for saving your ass from the Japanese and also while CCP was hiding in mountains during their long march ,KMT was the one fighting the Japanese. So thank Taiwan for that...
Also its true that CCP killed more Chinese than the Japanese...
Well the Chinese are also openly threatning Australia , you should be careful when you go out , Aussies are definitely pissed at CCP overseas workers
 

shade

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What I don't get is, if they had a Kaveri engine that was working fine in every way except after-burner, why didn't they just use it to create a whole fleet of subsonic aircraft? You could make a fleet of subsonic bombers carrying cruise missiles, a fleet of refuelling tankers, a fleet of AWACS and ELINT aircraft, a fleet of large tank carrier aircraft, etc all being powered by a non-afterburning Kaveri. And you could do it very cheaply by manufacturing the engines and aircraft in India in very large numbers. It would create hundreds of thousands of jobs, as well as a massive military industrial complex. You could even sell these aircraft to other countries for massive profits.
Because no bribes/kickbacks then lol.
Legend has it even now the FACTORY OF THE WORLD uses imported marine gas turbines for it's warships, these are imported from Russia, Germany etc
 

Rajaraja Chola

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Any surprise? We are in quickly developing world, any country stops her R&D investment in certain sector for 10 years, her knowledge & skills will become obsolete, not to mention 70 years interuption.



Well, that doesn't change the fact that their carriers now are full of foreign key equipment.



No matter what you believe, the fact is neither Japan, nor German has an fully independent military R&D department as US, Russia, China. Both of them have to rely on US or other European countries for certain key technologies. So, US shows no interest to help them to get independence but making them a component contractors.

Just look at Japan, at beginning, she planned to have F35 manufactured domestically. But later it turned out the domestic F35 is far more expensive than imported one (thanks to the overpriced US export), they have to give up.
It's vice versa. US or in the case NATO has now strong interoperability that soecialised components are made by NATO countries. You would be surprised to know mind blogging contribution from Canadian companies to F18 fighters. And that's how US keeps costs competitive. Cos some US companies though can design/manufacture cannot keep their products competitive. Without NATO suppliers, there is no way an F35 can sell under 100 million. In a way only Russia and China manufacture 100% of their own.

The advantage of US is NATO. They are so strongly integrated with one another that one solution is seemlessly can be patched onto any product cos all countries use the same platforms one way or another.

If Japan or Germany earmark on an ambition to create an separate aero industrial base, they can do it, but will be damn costly. Europe or today's japan can't compete with US on cost edges.
 

Nietzche_Z

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I read long time ago, Kaveri have some unusual vibration problem which can be solved by experts in engine tech. That's the reason.
Think its the engine compressor blades 1. withstanding the high temperature and not deforming under the high temperature and pressure conditions...this may have been solved with the single crystal blade tech 2. self induced vibrations / flutter in the blades ...some sort of resonance vibration.
 

Nietzche_Z

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somebody please educate me a bit, thrust of M88-2 is 50kN/75kN, F404 is 48.9kN/78.7kN and Kaveri is 52kN/81kN. but M88 and F404 is flying and Kaveri is cancelled for being underpowered. what am I missing?
I thought the kaveri didnt meet the targetted wet / afterburner/ military thrust of 81kn. it did meet the dry thrust of 52kn. second is stability / vibration issues at higher pressure / temperatures as its gets to higher thrust. which may be why the kaveri can be used in an application like AURA UAV or marine engines which doesnt require the higher thrust but its not quite ready for prime time on a supersonic jet. Which also maybe why GTRE was talking to Snecma on fixing the kabini core or replacing with the M88's core.
 

no smoking

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somebody please educate me a bit, thrust of M88-2 is 50kN/75kN, F404 is 48.9kN/78.7kN and Kaveri is 52kN/81kN. but M88 and F404 is flying and Kaveri is cancelled for being underpowered. what am I missing?
Although M88-2's maximum thrust is only 75kn, but its dry weight is only 897kg, so they can put 2 on the plane;
F404 IN20 (for India specifically) maximum is 84kn, weight is 1072kg;

Kaveri, the design TARGET is 81kn, but early news is it failed to reach that level. And it is overweight - around 1200kg.
 

johnq

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A Kaveri engine that is fully operational in non-afterburning mode (dry thrust) is still good enough to create huge fleets of indigenous A-10 like close-air-support aircraft (with low wing loading for high altitude with 2 Kaveri engines), AWACS, refuelling aircraft, bombers, troop/tank transport aircraft, UCAVs, spy UAVs, ELINT aircraft, antisubmarine aircraft, etc. Due to cheaper manufacturing costs and economies of scale, Indian aircraft fitted with Kaveri engines will be very competitive, both in India and export sales. GTRE should just focus on getting a non-afterburning Kaveri fully operational, because that by itself is good enough to create a massive military industrial base that can support millions of jobs over the long run.
 

johnq

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That is not to say that they should stop working on developing an afterburning engine; just that a non-afterburning fully operational engine can go a long way in making India into a military industrial power. They can even use modified non-afterburning Kaveri engine technology for ships, armoured vehicles and helicopters, and smaller versions for armies of drones and cruise missiles.
 

WolfPack86

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India To Acquire Fighter Jet Engine Technology & JV With Foreign OEM Soon: IAF Chief RKS Bhadauria

Interacting with BW Businessworld, on the recent CAG report on the failure of Rafale Offsets and subsequent delays of the transfer of technology (TOT) for aero engine, Chief of the Indian Air Force RKS Bhadauria hinted a possible deal soon.

There is a lot of ambiguity in this regard. What are the issue on the TOTs as French partner Safran has not been able to transfer engine technology under the offset agreement so far? Where we are now at the moment as far as engine technology is concerned?

Chief RKS Bhadauria said: “In military aerospace zone, I think the engine is the biggest problem today and that is area that we must address. DRDO has been at it as we had numerous discussion. This engine issue is a complex issue. Technology involved is complex. DRDO and all concerned be it-- Safran, Rolls Royce and others-- they have been in discussion.” Further on the CAG report and upon the question raised by the author, Chief remarked: “As you asked specifically about Safran, the technology transfer did not materialize between DRDO & Safran and that is why it is not part of Offset as yet. Should it get firmed up between the two it will become part of the offset. So our understanding on that should be clear. It is from both side. If they firm up the commitment to take the transfer of technology, and sort out the negotiations with DRDO thereafter it will become part of the offset. Offsets contracts cater for such a possibility.”


When asked whether we are building upon Kaveri engine or DRDO is developing all together new engine capability, Chief said: “In terms of what is happening on the engine, what I am aware of is that there is a concerted effort to form a JV. Kaveri (Engine) came a long way but now it is not possible to assimilate it in AMCA kind of project. So JV is what we are looking at. We will see soon that the contours of JV get fructified.”

“It is not that Kaveri has failed. Part of Kaveri has been quite successful. In terms of design and manufacturing we will of course leverage the Kaveri Know how down the line and even assimilate in future JV for aero engine,” Chief further explained the past effort of DRDO.

“So, there will be technology that will be part of our plan and there needed technology to be built up. Since we have a tight timeline and how much should be capacity and on all that DRDO has to be finalized Chief elaborated on the sheer efforts and expertise gained such elusive technology that only very countries have been able to develop and master,” Chief said.

Are we not leveraging on international partnership for jointly develop aero engine for fighter jets as lot many countries – French Safran and UK’s Rolly Royce among others are offering though none has been fructified so far? So any concrete result will happen this year? Replying on such possibilities Chief said: yes- sooner or later. “But I have been hoping for a long time,” Chief said at last, knowing the complexity and the unwillingness of foreign OEMs to transfer such coveted technology to India.

On the multi-role fighter aircraft (MRFA)and Rafale, Chief made it clear that the IAF has placed the trust in the LCA. In the next five years we will commence induction of 83 LCA Mk1A. We are supportive of DRDO and HAL’s effort at their indigenous production and you will soon see the contract of HTT 40 and LCH in this area CAS Bhadauria said.

“At the moment, we are concentrating on 83 LCA Mk 1A. After that, the follow-up planned is MRFA (multi-role fighter aircraft), which is ‘Make in India’ and the other line is on LCA versions, and Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA),” said the IAF chief.

On India- china standoff at LAC in the Indian territory of ladakh, Chief said: “China can’t get the better of India in any conflict and the air force, with its capability and intent serving as a deterrent for the adversary, is ready to handle any contingency, whilst he acknowledged the strengths of the Chinese air force and gave a broad overview of how the IAF would counter it.”

The IAF chief said there was no question of underestimating the capabilities of the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) as it had made huge investments in “technology, systems and numbers”. He also spoke about the IAF’s assessment of the Chinese J-20 fifth-generation fighter aircraft, calling it “work in progress”.

Asked if the IAF had come close to launching airstrikes against Chinese targets after the June 15 Galwan Valley skirmish in which 20 Indian soldiers were killed, Bhadauria said, “No. But we were prepared for it.”

On China using air bases in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, including Skardu, and the possibility of a two-front war, the IAF chief said, “Whether China will use Skardu is an open-ended question. But if China needs Pakistan’s help to confront us, I have nothing to say. If Skardu gets used by China and we are in conflict with China, then it’s a collusive threat. And we will deal with it accordingly,” IAF chief said. He said:"We have full capability for a two-front war."

Chief also talked about the new dimensions of aerial warfare and the role of UAVs in the conflict. Chief said: “Firstly, drones are important part for ISR and gathering of reconnaissance. It is very important. Their role in the initial conflict us very important. Once the conflict starts they do become susceptible to enemy action. But you can’t win a war by sending Drones or even arms Drones. In terms of cost of Drones, it is an issue and it depends on capability. That increase in capability has its own cost. We know some system are costlier and some are not. So when we go head these will factor in final assessment. As attack weapon they have been very successful but they will be always limitation.There is combination of such asset that you need to have. We are aware of what kind of mix we should have.”

Chief said: Direct energy is in our wish list. Now we are talking about 5th generation. DRDO is working on this. By the time, we will have 5th generation fighter jets, we should aim for 6th generation technology as far as Direct Energy is concerned. This will be the best outcome in our indigenous effort.

Asked on US deployment of B-2 bomber in Indian Ocean region and if it worked as deterrent to China in restraining, IAF Chief said: “American military deployment is from their own perspectives. When we prepare we don’t plan it from our perspective. Their deployment is according to their strategic thinking. The American deployment took place without our coordination. Nobody will fight our war- we will have to fight ourselves."

Chief said India will have 450 air combat platforms.On how it builds up to Chief said: “It is not exact math but if you start counting from the current plan of action, we are acquiring 83 LCA Tejas Mk1a; 106 HTT 40, 100 LCA next generation; AMCA 7 squadrons and helicopters among others. He said the time line for LCA Tejas Mk 1a is about 4 years. AMCA is being progressed.

“Within a decade, we will be able to get them. By 2027 we are expecting AMCA by DRDO. Another 114 MMRCA addition will take place. For some of them approvals have not happened so this is the plan of action, but if start counting number will even go beyond 450. That is a huge numbers. I don’t think anybody has committed such numbers anywhere in the world," CAS explained.

"This is the time for private sector and public sector to come together and supported by DRDO" Chief remarked on the building robust aerospace ecosystem in India as the result of such possibilities.

On the assimilation of indigenous technology Chief said a leading Indian IT firm has developed for IAF an electronic Maintenance Management System (e-MMS), which has all our flying platforms on it. Virtually this is the world’s largest such maintenance monitoring system and this has been a huge achievement with the private sector. "Virtually this is the world’s largest such maintenance monitoring system and this has been a huge achievement with the private sector," he said.

Despite many such platforms and indigenous effort whether IAF will be catch up to formidable number of 42 squadron? “Even we move at the fastest pace we cannot touch 40 squadron in a decade. If we get to 36 to 37 by the end of this decade, it will be good achievement” Chief said. But that is good number with our indigenous effort and technology.

 

Dessert Storm

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RKS Bhadauria didn't mention Tejas Mk2(mwf)
Why?
He did say LCA Versions.
Edit: if you 'stretch' the versions, it can include ORCA.
“At the moment, we are concentrating on 83 LCA Mk 1A. After that, the follow-up planned is MRFA (multi-role fighter aircraft), which is ‘Make in India’ and the other line is on LCA versions, and Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA),” said the IAF chief.
 

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