Kaveri Engine

WolfPack86

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Rafale Offsets: New Fighter Jet Engine Complex Coming Up, French Assistance Likely
The new engine complex is being set up as a national mission to develop a 110 kilo newton powered engine for the future class of advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) and could produce the engine within seven years of starting work

by Manu Pubby

NEW DELHI:
Even as the central auditor has raised questions on non-completion of high end technology transfer as part of the Rafale fighter jet offsets deal, ET has learnt that a new fighter jet engine complex spearheaded by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is in the works, with advanced discussions on for a completely new engine for future Indian fighters with a French manufacturer.

The new engine complex is being set up as a national mission to develop a 110 kilo newton powered engine for the future class of advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) and could produce the engine within seven years of starting work.

French engine manufacturer Safran has offered a compete technology transfer to develop the engine and use the offset credits from the Rafale deal and is also tying up with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for transferring manufacturing technology for high end engines.

“We are signing an agreement related to the technology needed for high thrust engine manufacturing. The technology will be common to the Rafale engines that can be supported by us and would also be useful for the 110 kn engine project,” HAL Chairman R Madhavan told ET.

While the new engine complex is yet to be set up, the broad understanding is that it would cater to high end fighter jet engines while HAL would be involved in lower thrust engines for helicopters, light transport aircraft, UAVs and trainers.

HAL is also likely to be part of the 110 kn engine project as a manufacturing partner. As reported by ET, the air force is keen that the future AMCA fighter jet be powered by an indigenous engine to ensure self reliance. While the first squadron of the AMCA fighters would need a foreign engine due to timelines, future squadrons would be powered by an Indian engine, which could possibly be christened the Kaveri.

As reported, in a report referring to the Rafale fighter jet deal, the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) pointed out on Wednesday that plans for transfer of high end technology as part of the offsets deal have not been completed and it not clear if it will even take place in the future.

ET has been reporting that plans to use the Rafale offsets for obtaining jet engine technology has been hanging since 2016, even though French company Safran has been in talks with Indian stakeholders. French companies can modify offset plans at any point but have a huge obligation - to the tune of 3.5 billion Euro – that need to be competed in the next three years, though this timeline can be extended by the government.
 

Tridev123

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Any effort made to create high performance jet engines with help from foreign engine majors is welcome. But more details about the plan should be shared. What is the time frame envisaged and work share division between Indian and foreign partner. Will India work on hot core technology or will we be relegated to working only on the cold section.

Any transfer of technology on materials for the hot core possible. Will the variable cycle design of the Kaveri be taken forward. India has very hot temperature conditions in places like Rajasthan and very cold operating conditions in places like Ladakh. Our aircraft engines should work well in both types of environment.

There is not even a single aircraft engine manufacturing or assembly plant in the private sector. High time that a private sector unit starts manufacturing /assembly of Aero engines like what HAL does for the Su30mki. If they start by first assembling then they can progress to developing an engine over a period of time. The private sector will be better at innovation.
 

Chandragupt Maurya

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There are two plans for engines one is K9+ which is development of the current Kaveri engine and add more thrust by doing modifications and
Another one is K10 which is development of an entirely new engine of 110KN engine for AMCA
I wish if Kaveri engine is used in LCA Tejas Mk1A
 

mandestiny

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Rafale Offsets: New Fighter Jet Engine Complex Coming Up, French Assistance Likely
The new engine complex is being set up as a national mission to develop a 110 kilo newton powered engine for the future class of advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) and could produce the engine within seven years of starting work

by Manu Pubby

NEW DELHI:
Even as the central auditor has raised questions on non-completion of high end technology transfer as part of the Rafale fighter jet offsets deal, ET has learnt that a new fighter jet engine complex spearheaded by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is in the works, with advanced discussions on for a completely new engine for future Indian fighters with a French manufacturer.

The new engine complex is being set up as a national mission to develop a 110 kilo newton powered engine for the future class of advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) and could produce the engine within seven years of starting work.

French engine manufacturer Safran has offered a compete technology transfer to develop the engine and use the offset credits from the Rafale deal and is also tying up with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for transferring manufacturing technology for high end engines.

“We are signing an agreement related to the technology needed for high thrust engine manufacturing. The technology will be common to the Rafale engines that can be supported by us and would also be useful for the 110 kn engine project,” HAL Chairman R Madhavan told ET.

While the new engine complex is yet to be set up, the broad understanding is that it would cater to high end fighter jet engines while HAL would be involved in lower thrust engines for helicopters, light transport aircraft, UAVs and trainers.

HAL is also likely to be part of the 110 kn engine project as a manufacturing partner. As reported by ET, the air force is keen that the future AMCA fighter jet be powered by an indigenous engine to ensure self reliance. While the first squadron of the AMCA fighters would need a foreign engine due to timelines, future squadrons would be powered by an Indian engine, which could possibly be christened the Kaveri.

As reported, in a report referring to the Rafale fighter jet deal, the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) pointed out on Wednesday that plans for transfer of high end technology as part of the offsets deal have not been completed and it not clear if it will even take place in the future.

ET has been reporting that plans to use the Rafale offsets for obtaining jet engine technology has been hanging since 2016, even though French company Safran has been in talks with Indian stakeholders. French companies can modify offset plans at any point but have a huge obligation - to the tune of 3.5 billion Euro – that need to be competed in the next three years, though this timeline can be extended by the government.
If they give full TOT then can HAL make new type of engines ?
 

Tridev123

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A suggestion.
Let us create a non after burning turbofan engine of 25 kn and test and mass produce it. This low output engine will be useful for UAV, basic trainer aircraft etc.
An drone with two engines, one an imported proven 25kn engine and the other our indigenous 25kn engine can be used as the flying test bed. No risk to pilots.

If we successfully mass produce the engine and deliver reliable flight worthy engines, it should give a boost to our confidence.
Start small and then scale up.
 

Dessert Storm

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A suggestion.
Let us create a non after burning turbofan engine of 25 kn and test and mass produce it. This low output engine will be useful for UAV, basic trainer aircraft etc.
An drone with two engines, one an imported proven 25kn engine and the other our indigenous 25kn engine can be used as the flying test bed. No risk to pilots.

If we successfully mass produce the engine and deliver reliable flight worthy engines, it should give a boost to our confidence.
Start small and then scale up.
Fyi
 

Tridev123

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Yes, a step in the right direction.
But they should succeed in a definite time frame. Not take decades to perfect the technology and fly it. Since this is much easier than a high thrust engine of 75 to 100kn.

Hope they don't disappoint us.

It would be nice to have at least one success story in Aero engine development even if it is not very high technology. A fully certified, flight worthy, mass produced indigenous turbofan engine which can even be exported.
 

Dessert Storm

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Yes, a step in the right direction.
But they should succeed in a definite time frame. Not take decades to perfect the technology and fly it. Since this is much easier than a high thrust engine of 75 to 100kn.

Hope they don't disappoint us.

It would be nice to have at least one success story in Aero engine development even if it is not very high technology. A fully certified, flight worthy, mass produced indigenous turbofan engine which can even be exported.
HAL's Annual Report 2019-20 says another 5 yrs min to the certified engine in 25 kn category.
 

no smoking

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The Chinese will succeed in developing and manufacturing reliable jet engines sooner or later. When you're willing to invest 40 billion US dollars and put a lot of people in research the chances of success increase. Not only will it help sell military planes. But also break into the civilian airliner market.

If the US ignores Chinese advances today they are going to be looking at big Chinese companies in a decade or two competing with Boeing. As well as entering the military aircraft market in a big way.

China could become the sole aerospace competitor to the US in Asia. Countries not happy with the US would think of buying Chinese planes if they are good. On the other hand if India manages to advance in aerospace it could start offering both military and civilian planes to Asian customers as an alternative to Chinese aircraft.
So, your logic is: in order to handle the "possible" competition from Chinese competitor, US or western competitors should create another competitor which not only compete against Chinese, but also against themselves?

Can India government sign a contract promising that this Indian company which will built with help of West will only show up in the market that has Chinese competitor?

The Chinese will first have to take on India in Asia before confronting the US in aerospace.
US doesn't need a TECHNICAL INDEPENDENT India aerospace, they have plenty of other options who are eager to build a aerospace industry without TECHNICAL INDEPENDENCE at all.

Regarding Japan it is a technologically independent nation and has been for decades. But they are not allowed to grow in certain areas by the US especially in defence.
That is purely BS. There is no law (in US and Japan) prohibiting Japan from any military R&D except nuclear weapon. Further more , Japan is facing least restriction on military technologies import from US since 1960s. The matter of fact is she has no capability to do that INDEPENDENTLY. In 1980s, Japan tried to build her own fighter jet - FSX. The American's answer was "if you want to build your own jet, you have to build it 100% on your own". The result? Japanese decided to work with Americans.

Even the so called "independent" jet engine XF-9 has lot of US technologies.
 

Chandragupt Maurya

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Private companies in India can make a jet engine for such huge country like India it’s not a big deal to make a 110KN thrust engine if we have the political will
 

johnq

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Actually it would be in American interests to start manufacturing engines and aircraft in India, because it would lower costs while keeping Chinese spyware out. China currently has the ability to manufacture engines and aircraft at lower costs, so it could beat the US in a numbers game. The way to offset the Chinese advantage is to make more American engines and aircraft at lower costs by setting up a manufacturing base in India. And the same engines could be supplied for Indian aircraft at lower costs as well.
 

Tridev123

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So, your logic is: in order to handle the "possible" competition from Chinese competitor, US or western competitors should create another competitor which not only compete against Chinese, but also against themselves?

Can India government sign a contract promising that this Indian company which will built with help of West will only show up in the market that has Chinese competitor?



US doesn't need a TECHNICAL INDEPENDENT India aerospace, they have plenty of other options who are eager to build a aerospace industry without TECHNICAL INDEPENDENCE at all.



That is purely BS. There is no law (in US and Japan) prohibiting Japan from any military R&D except nuclear weapon. Further more , Japan is facing least restriction on military technologies import from US since 1960s. The matter of fact is she has no capability to do that INDEPENDENTLY. In 1980s, Japan tried to build her own fighter jet - FSX. The American's answer was "if you want to build your own jet, you have to build it 100% on your own". The result? Japanese decided to work with Americans.

Even the so called "independent" jet engine XF-9 has lot of US technologies.
Don't agree with your first two points.
The Chinese prop up Pakistan in S. Asia as a competitor to India and keep India busy and preoccupied. They have provided nuclear bomb designs, build nuclear power reactors in Pakistan, set up JF 17 assembly line, provide ballistic and cruise missile technology.

But if the US wants to should do the same in the India - China context, it is bullshit.
Really.

The Japanese are so successful in almost all the fields that they enter be it automobiles, consumer electronics etc and only in defence they ride piggy back on the Americans. The rules may not be put on paper in black and white but the US has enough leverage over Japan to influence policy making.

The Japanese are conspicuously absent from a big presence in military and civilian planes market. Do you really think that they could not have succeeded in defence manufacturing if given the choice.
The Japanese Soryu conventional submarine is probably the most advanced in the world using superior lithium ion AIP technology.

If you want to bury your head in the sand and escape realities, you are free to do so.
 

Chandragupt Maurya

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Don't agree with your first two points.
The Chinese prop up Pakistan in S. Asia as a competitor to India and keep India busy and preoccupied. They have provided nuclear bomb designs, build nuclear power reactors in Pakistan, set up JF 17 assembly line, provide ballistic and cruise missile technology.

But if the US wants to should do the same in the India - China context, it is bullshit.
Really.

The Japanese are so successful in almost all the fields that they enter be it automobiles, consumer electronics etc and only in defence they ride piggy back on the Americans. The rules may not be put on paper in black and white but the US has enough leverage over Japan to influence policy making.

The Japanese are conspicuously absent from a big presence in military and civilian planes market. Do you really think that they could not have succeeded in defence manufacturing if given the choice.
The Japanese Soryu conventional submarine is probably the most advanced in the world using superior lithium ion AIP technology.

If you want to bury your head in the sand and escape realities, you are free to do so.
Japan relies on USA for it’s security
If They rely more on India and less on US for it’s security maybe they’ll be able to make some weapons like US does
 

no smoking

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Don't agree with your first two points.
The Chinese prop up Pakistan in S. Asia as a competitor to India and keep India busy and preoccupied. They have provided nuclear bomb designs, build nuclear power reactors in Pakistan, set up JF 17 assembly line, provide ballistic and cruise missile technology.

But if the US wants to should do the same in the India - China context, it is bullshit.
Really.
None in your list is making Pakistan technically independent, US has no problem to build up assemble line in India, but offering India technical independent capability. No, no one ever did that.

The Japanese are so successful in almost all the fields that they enter be it automobiles, consumer electronics etc and only in defence they ride piggy back on the Americans.
They were very successful in consumer sector when they were the only one receiving the technologies from US and Europe. In 1980s - 1990s, they were dominant power in automobiles, electronics, etc. Now, in terms of automobiles they become one of the major powers. In electronics, their brands are disappearing. They are losing their market share everywhere.

The rules may not be put on paper in black and white but the US has enough leverage over Japan to influence policy making.
Well, that is the excuse. The simple fact is that after 70 years of being "influenced" by US, Japan became heavily relied on US for key military technologies. She can choose to re-build all her military R&D basis, but she won't achieve the independence within 20 years.

The Japanese are conspicuously absent from a big presence in military and civilian planes market. Do you really think that they could not have succeeded in defence manufacturing if given the choice.
Oh, no. Do some homework please.

Japan always has the choice:

1970s - T2 & F1, run on loss;
1980s, FSX turned to be F-2 as US refused to provide key technologies;
2004, MRJ-90, still in development after 16 years;


The Japanese Soryu conventional submarine is probably the most advanced in the world using superior lithium ion AIP technology.
Yes, a super submarine full of American equipment and weapons.

If you want to bury your head in the sand and escape realities, you are free to do so.
You get confused the technical independence with technical advancement. There is no doubt Japanese has a lot technologies leading the whole world. However, in the sensitive areas such military, the comprehensive technical capability is far more important than a few leading technologies.

If you compare Japan with Russia and China. If we say Russia scored 70 in every subject and Chinese score is 50, the figures are not good, but they have reached certain level in every subject. Japan, on the other hand, got 100 in some subjects, but 30, 20 or even 0 in some of subjects. So, when come to weapons, Russia can build 70 level weapons when Chinese can build 50, not the best but they can build everything they need. Japan, however, has to rely on US to provide those technologies where she only scores 30 or even lower.
 

johnq

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That's not entirely true. The engine on the Mig-15 was based on English engine technology transferred after WW2 by the UK to Russia.
India is very close to a breakthrough on engine technology anyways, but I wouldn't be surprised if the west helped it along in achieving a final product, especially after observing India's willingness to fight China.
 

Rajaraja Chola

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None in your list is making Pakistan technically independent, US has no problem to build up assemble line in India, but offering India technical independent capability. No, no one ever did that.



They were very successful in consumer sector when they were the only one receiving the technologies from US and Europe. In 1980s - 1990s, they were dominant power in automobiles, electronics, etc. Now, in terms of automobiles they become one of the major powers. In electronics, their brands are disappearing. They are losing their market share everywhere.



Well, that is the excuse. The simple fact is that after 70 years of being "influenced" by US, Japan became heavily relied on US for key military technologies. She can choose to re-build all her military R&D basis, but she won't achieve the independence within 20 years.



Oh, no. Do some homework please.

Japan always has the choice:

1970s - T2 & F1, run on loss;
1980s, FSX turned to be F-2 as US refused to provide key technologies;
2004, MRJ-90, still in development after 16 years;




Yes, a super submarine full of American equipment and weapons.



You get confused the technical independence with technical advancement. There is no doubt Japanese has a lot technologies leading the whole world. However, in the sensitive areas such military, the comprehensive technical capability is far more important than a few leading technologies.

If you compare Japan with Russia and China. If we say Russia scored 70 in every subject and Chinese score is 50, the figures are not good, but they have reached certain level in every subject. Japan, on the other hand, got 100 in some subjects, but 30, 20 or even 0 in some of subjects. So, when come to weapons, Russia can build 70 level weapons when Chinese can build 50, not the best but they can build everything they need. Japan, however, has to rely on US to provide those technologies where she only scores 30 or even lower.
Err. No offense. But you are talking of a country which had an military industrial base before the world war 2 and now it can't? People always say Japan was poor than India in 40's. True, but Japan.and Germany always had a base in industry before the war. They had aircraft carriers in 30's and we are still sitting with one for 13 years.

Japan has not been allowed to develop technologies in the past and it's true. Atleast till 80's, US was still suspicious of Japan's intention. When Japan was leapfrogging in microprocessors, US brought in an act targetting Japanese companies. They had always kept them in check informally. Only now they have realised in the folly of their policy in light of China's military development. They realised Japan has to form its own independent defence industrial complex to form an offensive capability against the Chinese which in some ways can make US Navy's job easier in case of an war. These are few countries which are considered de facto nuclear powers . Those who can make an bomb so fast if they can. And Japan and Germany is among them. For reasons we all know they don't make one. Same for Japan. If they concentrate on making a jet engine, they sure can make one. The problem is their industries already are in jV with most Us companies, sharing patents that it would be tough to work on new engine from scratch.
 

shade

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Some wannabe superpower shouldn't mock the Japanese, they have experienced what the Japanese are capable off...
Soon the Japanese will amend their pacifist constitution and we will see them militarising again.... Militarily strong Japan is good for us...
Nahi hoga unless Washington allows them.
Besides they are a post-Nationalism country now, run by corporate interests.
 

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