Kaveri Engine

Aaj ka hero

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Hope this is not from official source but oolalala French madamesouillle cough cough.... india is a good milking money for these beautiful people.
 

Abhay Rajput 02

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That's not the point being discussed. The point is 'not delivering what was agreed to'.
There must have been some loopholes in the agreement which we signed if thats the case aka not properly negotiated. Since they were saying they can use only some money from the offset on this project and were demanding more money. Whatever be the case, we need to solve engine problems ourselves.
 

Akula

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Rafale scam deal saga is again going to start after this CAG audit report. I am seeing many people commenting on Kaveri engine (when they don't know about it).
 

Chinmoy

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vishnugupt

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I don't understand why people are cry after tabling CAG report ?? There approximately 30000 crores of offsets where some of them has been applied, few of them in the queue and will be done soon.
Nobody was going to give you engine technology This is a fact and it was known much before Rafale deal neither French made such claim.
TOT doesn't mean we will get A-Z technology from rafale/ France.
Offset deal means, French will invest 50% of money back in India wherever Indian government want to do them. it does not guarantee successful outcome like it happened in previous deals.
 

Tridev123

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So even frenchs fucked us up. I dunno when we will realize that only way forward is to hire foreign consultants and get this done.
I don't know whether the French will be able to transfer core engine technology to India. I believe the real veto power over transfer of sensitive technology lies with the US and NATO.

Previously during the Cold War when the Soviet Union was existing France had more elbow room and could follow a really independent foreign policy. But the demise of the Soviet Union has made the world more unipolar.

Maybe the key to acquiring jet engine technology lies with the US and they should be convinced that it is in their interest that India becomes more technology independent. The Chinese are investing tens of billions of US dollars in aircraft engine research and development and it is only a matter of time before they succeed. India will be a counter to Chinese technological hegemony in Asia.
 

LDev

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After assembling 272 SU-30s and 700-900 AL-31FP engines the Russians have not and will not give India the core metallurgy, alloy and ceramic technology utilized in the manufacture of the alloys and ceramics from which the turbine blades and insulating lining of the engine core and afterburner area are manufactured. Those alloy and ceramic blocks are imported from Russia and only machined in India. Who has thought of this fantasy that by buying 36 or 72 or even 126 Rafale that France/Safran will part with this technology. These companies in the US, UK, France and Russia i.e. GE, P&W, RR, Safran, Salyut/Saturn and their IP are considered strategic national assets and neither the companies nor their IP is for sale at any price.
 

Kumata

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Did not we had a recent agreement with rolls royce for engine development tech...
 

Dessert Storm

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Rolls Royce showed interest. Nothing signed as of now. But the chatter around it had increased.
 

Hiranyaksha

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Mate I dunno much about rest of the defence contractors but many of the EU defence contractors consultants and engineers can be hired. I know many of ex SAAB guys who will willingly come to India and work and develop technology . Nobody is gonna steal the tech or transfer the tech. It is just about finding key technology people. Predictive alloys,materials along with metallurgical people. Plus System and subsystem engineers - MBSE , right simulation team and softwares and SIL guys, system condition monitoring, reliability, risk management along with sensors team, testing team, production line and some experienced project team .
It will take 5-7 years and budget can be much more but this will setup the "soft and knowledge" infrastructure which will enable DRDO to churn out various engines one after the other.
These soft knowledge cannot be transferred . It can only be institutionalized after working along with these experienced people.
 

no smoking

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Maybe the key to acquiring jet engine technology lies with the US and they should be convinced that it is in their interest that India becomes more technology independent. The Chinese are investing tens of billions of US dollars in aircraft engine research and development and it is only a matter of time before they succeed. India will be a counter to Chinese technological hegemony in Asia.
How is that?
Firstly, getting India technology independent can only make one more competitor in high tech sectors, which means less income and profit in the future. How could that be in their interest?
Secondly, even in the peak of cold war, they didn't make their most reliable ally - Japan more technology independent, why they should treat India differently?
 

Tridev123

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How is that?
Firstly, getting India technology independent can only make one more competitor in high tech sectors, which means less income and profit in the future. How could that be in their interest?
Secondly, even in the peak of cold war, they didn't make their most reliable ally - Japan more technology independent, why they should treat India differently?
The Chinese will succeed in developing and manufacturing reliable jet engines sooner or later. When you're willing to invest 40 billion US dollars and put a lot of people in research the chances of success increase. Not only will it help sell military planes. But also break into the civilian airliner market.

If the US ignores Chinese advances today they are going to be looking at big Chinese companies in a decade or two competing with Boeing. As well as entering the military aircraft market in a big way.

China could become the sole aerospace competitor to the US in Asia. Countries not happy with the US would think of buying Chinese planes if they are good. On the other hand if India manages to advance in aerospace it could start offering both military and civilian planes to Asian customers as an alternative to Chinese aircraft.

The Chinese will first have to take on India in Asia before confronting the US in aerospace.

Regarding Japan it is a technologically independent nation and has been for decades. But they are not allowed to grow in certain areas by the US especially in defence.
 

WolfPack86

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Rafale offsets: M-88 engine complex soon, French to co-develop 110 kn engine for AMCA
Even as the central auditor has raised questions on non-completion of high end technology transfer as part of the Rafale fighter jet offsets deal, ET has learnt that a new fighter jet engine complex spearheaded by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is in the works, with advanced discussions on for a completely new engine for future Indian fighters with a French manufacturer.


The new engine complex is being set up as a national mission to develop a 110 kilo newton powered engine for the future class of advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) and could produce the engine within seven years of starting work.


French engine manufacturer Safran has offered a compete technology transfer to develop the engine and use the offset credits from the Rafale deal and is also tying up with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for transferring manufacturing technology for high end engines.


“We are signing an agreement related to the technology needed for high thrust engine manufacturing. The technology will be common to the Rafale engines that can be supported by us and would also be useful for the 110 kn engine project,” HAL Chairman R Madhavan told ET.


While the new engine complex is yet to be set up, the broad understanding is that it would cater to high end fighter jet engines while HAL would be involved in lower thrust engines for helicopters, light transport aircraft, UAVs and trainers.


HAL is also likely to be part of the 110 kn engine project as a manufacturing partner. As reported by ET, the air force is keen that the future AMCA fighter jet be powered by an indigenous engine to ensure self reliance. While the first squadron of the AMCA fighters would need a foreign engine due to timelines, future squadrons would be powered by an Indian engine, which could possibly be christened the Kaveri.


As reported, in a report referring to the Rafale fighter jet deal, the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) pointed out on Wednesday that plans for transfer of high end technology as part of the offsets deal have not been completed and it not clear if it will even take place in the future.


ET has been reporting that plans to use the Rafale offsets for obtaining jet engine technology has been hanging since 2016, even though French company Safran has been in talks with Indian stakeholders. French companies can modify offset plans at any point but have a huge obligation – to the tune of 3.5 billion Euro – that need to be competed in the next three years, though this timeline can be extended by the government.
 

LDev

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Mate I dunno much about rest of the defence contractors but many of the EU defence contractors consultants and engineers can be hired. I know many of ex SAAB guys who will willingly come to India and work and develop technology . Nobody is gonna steal the tech or transfer the tech. It is just about finding key technology people. Predictive alloys,materials along with metallurgical people. Plus System and subsystem engineers - MBSE , right simulation team and softwares and SIL guys, system condition monitoring, reliability, risk management along with sensors team, testing team, production line and some experienced project team .
It will take 5-7 years and budget can be much more but this will setup the "soft and knowledge" infrastructure which will enable DRDO to churn out various engines one after the other.
These soft knowledge cannot be transferred . It can only be institutionalized after working along with these experienced people.
Poaching people to move in such a scenario is difficult in peacetime, all kinds of restrictions in place for those who have classified scientific knowledge. But it is entirely possible to do it in times of great turmoil. e.g. in the aftermath of WW2, the most famous example is Wernher von Braun and his team of 1600 scientists who were taken to the US in Operation Paperclip. They were the nucleus of US developments in missile technology and rocket launchers. India had it's own Kurt Tank but unlike the US, India did not nurture that effort and make it into something substantial like the US. The Soviets also scooped up the technical literature relating to the Junkers Jumo 004 turbojet engine which powered the Me-262 and copied that to make the RD-10, the first Soviet jet engine which powered the Yak-45. They also got their hands on a BMW engine. The German engines were not very durable and long lasting and since the Soviets really did not have a proper jet engine in comparison to the British and the US, they asked the British to sell them some jet engines. This was in 1948, in the aftermath of the war and Britain was under pressure to re-pay the US for it's war debts. So they sold a quantity of the Rolls Royce Nene jet engine to the Soviets under the condition that it was not to be used in a war:crazy: The Russians promptly copied that engine and the Soviet name was the RD-45 which went on to power the Mig-15 of which some 12,000 were built by the USSR, licence manufactured in China, Poland etc. and was the primary fighter used by China and North Korea in the Korean War.

For about 2 years after the dissolution of the USSR in 1992-93 there was enough turmoil and turbulence that something like attempting to woo Soviet engineers with that kind of soft knowledge was possible. But I doubt that India even thought about something so radical.
 

WolfPack86

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Rafale offsets: New fighter jet engine complex coming up, French assistance likely
NEW DELHI: Even as the central auditor has raised questions on non-completion of high end technology transfer as part of the Rafale fighter jet offsets deal, ET has learnt that a new fighter jet engine complex spearheaded by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is in the works, with advanced discussions on for a completely new engine for future Indian fighters with a French manufacturer.

The new engine complex is being set up as a national mission to develop a 110 kilo newton powered engine for the future class of advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) and could produce the engine within seven years of starting work.

French engine manufacturer Safran has offered a compete technology transfer to develop the engine and use the offset credits from the Rafale deal and is also tying up with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited NSE 1.04 % (HAL) for transferring manufacturing technology for high end engines.


“We are signing an agreement related to the technology needed for high thrust engine manufacturing. The technology will be common to the Rafale engines that can be supported by us and would also be useful for the 110 kn engine project,” HAL Chairman R Madhavan told ET.

While the new engine complex is yet to be set up, the broad understanding is that it would cater to high end fighter jet engines while HAL would be involved in lower thrust engines for helicopters, light transport aircraft, UAVs and trainers.

HAL is also likely to be part of the 110 kn engine project as a manufacturing partner. As reported by ET, the air force is keen that the future AMCA fighter jet be powered by an indigenous engine to ensure self reliance. While the first squadron of the AMCA fighters would need a foreign engine due to timelines, future squadrons would be powered by an Indian engine, which could possibly be christened the Kaveri.

As reported, in a report referring to the Rafale fighter jet deal, the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) pointed out on Wednesday that plans for transfer of high end technology as part of the offsets deal have not been completed and it not clear if it will even take place in the future.

ET has been reporting that plans to use the Rafale offsets for obtaining jet engine technology has been hanging since 2016, even though French company Safran has been in talks with Indian stakeholders. French companies can modify offset plans at any point but have a huge obligation - to the tune of 3.5 billion Euro – that need to be competed in the next three years, though this timeline can be extended by the government.
 

fire starter

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Rafale offsets: New fighter jet engine complex coming up, French assistance likely
NEW DELHI: Even as the central auditor has raised questions on non-completion of high end technology transfer as part of the Rafale fighter jet offsets deal, ET has learnt that a new fighter jet engine complex spearheaded by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is in the works, with advanced discussions on for a completely new engine for future Indian fighters with a French manufacturer.

The new engine complex is being set up as a national mission to develop a 110 kilo newton powered engine for the future class of advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) and could produce the engine within seven years of starting work.

French engine manufacturer Safran has offered a compete technology transfer to develop the engine and use the offset credits from the Rafale deal and is also tying up with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited NSE 1.04 % (HAL) for transferring manufacturing technology for high end engines.


“We are signing an agreement related to the technology needed for high thrust engine manufacturing. The technology will be common to the Rafale engines that can be supported by us and would also be useful for the 110 kn engine project,” HAL Chairman R Madhavan told ET.

While the new engine complex is yet to be set up, the broad understanding is that it would cater to high end fighter jet engines while HAL would be involved in lower thrust engines for helicopters, light transport aircraft, UAVs and trainers.

HAL is also likely to be part of the 110 kn engine project as a manufacturing partner. As reported by ET, the air force is keen that the future AMCA fighter jet be powered by an indigenous engine to ensure self reliance. While the first squadron of the AMCA fighters would need a foreign engine due to timelines, future squadrons would be powered by an Indian engine, which could possibly be christened the Kaveri.

As reported, in a report referring to the Rafale fighter jet deal, the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) pointed out on Wednesday that plans for transfer of high end technology as part of the offsets deal have not been completed and it not clear if it will even take place in the future.

ET has been reporting that plans to use the Rafale offsets for obtaining jet engine technology has been hanging since 2016, even though French company Safran has been in talks with Indian stakeholders. French companies can modify offset plans at any point but have a huge obligation - to the tune of 3.5 billion Euro – that need to be competed in the next three years, though this timeline can be extended by the government.
so after RR French are also on the race. It's actually good for us if we are able to cash in properly.
 

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