Kaveri Engine

[Godless-Kafir]

^^ @Godless-Kafir,

Look, I won't accuse you of lying or anything. Maybe you are right, but we do not have evidence.

All we know is what you stated are claims, and more importantly unsupported claims. Let us say whatever you said was prima facie. The interviewer in the video was putting words in the mouth of the interviewee and the latter replied in the negative. Hardly a video to convince people.

What words did i put in his mouth? What are you talking about?

My words have been more supported than all the ramble and nationalistic trolling that is going on here.

 

[pmaitra]

What words did i put in his mouth? What are you talking about?

My words have been more supported than all the ramble and nationalistic trolling that is going on here.

What words did you put in his mouth? I don't know. Never accused you. I used the term 'interviewer' in the nominative case. Was that you?

Go to the video and check @1:20 onwards:
Interviewer: "Eh, eh, dry is seventyfive, is it?"
Interviewee: "Five, two, fiftytwo."
Interviewer: "That's all?"
Interviewee: "Yeah."
This is called putting words in one's mouth.

Check video again:

This is wrong info by Ajay, i think it could be a typo.

Here in this small video interaction with me and the Scientists of both GTRE and DMRL they confirmed it was 75kN at reheat. These guys work on the engine every day.


He says the final design will have 81kN but when i persisted with the question of current thrust he said it was 75kN.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

What words did you put in his mouth? I don't know. Never accused you. I used the term 'interviewer' in the nominative case. Was that you?

Go to the video and check @1:20 onwards:
Interviewer: "Eh, eh, dry is seventyfive, is it?"
Interviewee: "Five, two, fiftytwo."
Interviewer: "That's all?"
Interviewee: "Yeah."
This is called putting words in one's mouth.

Check video again:

So how did it change what he said? That is called getting corrected by the answer man and It was me asking the questions and i had meet a lot of GTRE and DMRL scientists. So i put words in all of their mouth so i can fool you many months later here mr.pmitra? Explain how that question changed what he said or stop trolling for no reason.

 

[pmaitra]

So how did it change what he said? That is called getting corrected by the answer man and It was me asking the questions and i had meet a lot of GTRE and DMRL scientists. So i put words in all of their mouth so i can fool you many months later here mr.pmitra? Explain how that question changed what he said or stop trolling for no reason.

I am Maitra, not Mitra.

Once again, I did not accuse you. I used the term 'interviewer' and yes the 'interviewer' was putting words in the 'interviewee's' mouth. Assuming you are the 'interviewer' (it seems so from your responses), then you, in this video, are doing that. You claim to have spoken to a lot of other people. Why not post some videos thereof?

I have said this earlier and I say it again. You may be correct or wrong, but you have not provided anything to support your arguments or claims. That's it.

 

[rudresh]

What I have recently heard is Kaveri can do 75KN. However the engine is a fail and not part of the LCA program anymore. The K-9 may be used to re engine the LCA Mk1 squadron after 2025.

if the core is fine {which is true} there is no talk of failure it may not give enough thrust now but u can never call it a failure . kaveri core is not having the very modren low density high temp alloys that is the only drawback rest the engine is fine.



if the engine is a failure how K-9 is going to power mk1{fail means not airworthy}

now the new m88 gives 90plus that with kaveri may go into lcamk1 thats all i doubt m88 core in lcamk2 or amca

 

[p2prada]

if the core is fine {which is true} there is no talk of failure it may not give enough thrust now but u can never call it a failure . kaveri core is not having the very modren low density high temp alloys that is the only drawback rest the engine is fine.



if the engine is a failure how K-9 is going to power mk1{fail means not airworthy}

now the new m88 gives 90plus that with kaveri may go into lcamk1 thats all i doubt m88 core in lcamk2 or amca

The Kabini core is a fail and IAF is no longer interested in it. GTRE is finishing the development of K-9 ASAP and concentrate on the K-10 which has real world uses.

If there is a K-11 project or if the K-9 will receive further funding for refinement can be speculation at best. The K-9 isn't good enough now. The Mk1 is more a development prototype rather than an actual aircraft and will see the K-9 on LCA in the better half of the decade, until then there is no way we can call the massively delayed program a success.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

I am Maitra, not Mitra.

Once again, I did not accuse you. I used the term 'interviewer' and yes the 'interviewer' was putting words in the 'interviewee's' mouth. Assuming you are the 'interviewer' (it seems so from your responses), then you, in this video, are doing that. You claim to have spoken to a lot of other people. Why not post some videos thereof?

I have said this earlier and I say it again. You may be correct or wrong, but you have not provided anything to support your arguments or claims. That's it.

Can i even argue against such an vague argument like yours? How is asking questions putting words in other peoples mouth? Did i force him to tell that? Did he change what he says after i ask, my god man what is wrong with you!!

There where plenty of other discussions with HAL scientists, DMRL, GTRE but it would be embracing if i held a camera while asking questions and i dont have to prove that to you, which is a waste of time. Now you can go on and demolish video proof while you dont even have an second hand article to support your claim and what are you arguing against anyway?

 

[rudresh]

The Kabini core is a fail and IAF is no longer interested in it. GTRE is finishing the development of K-9 ASAP and concentrate on the K-10 which has real world uses.

If there is a K-11 project or if the K-9 will receive further funding for refinement can be speculation at best. The K-9 isn't good enough now. The Mk1 is more a development prototype rather than an actual aircraft and will see the K-9 on LCA in the better half of the decade, until then there is no way we can call the massively delayed program a success.

ok let us see what is going to happen till that time i dont buy the consept of m88 core inside kaveri or even if that happens that will just be a spare engine for lca mk1and not even for mk2{american ge414IN6 is speculated to be 120kn iaf is not going to buy a lesser thrust engine if want to be reengined} and the project will not be feasible. ada team has asked nearly 110kn engine for amca .....can french engine give 110kn

 

[p2prada]

ok let us see what is going to happen till that time i dont buy the consept of m88 core inside kaveri or even if that happens that will just be a spare engine for lca mk1and not even for mk2{american ge414IN6 is speculated to be 120kn iaf is not going to buy a lesser thrust engine if want to be reengined} and the project will not be feasible. ada team has asked nearly 110kn engine for amca .....can french engine give 110kn

The M-88 core inside the Kaveri is the only option we have as of today. We don't have any other engine project.

GE F414 is not yet 120KN and may not even be 120KN. It is still 4 years away from operational use. First orders are to arrive only in 2014. LCA's current requirement is not 120Kn, but it is 95KN. The F414 at 98KN is an obvious choice.

The M-88-3 is set to give 95KN which conforms to the requirements as laid down by IAF.

ADA has never said they will require a thrust of 110KN for AMCA. Heck, the feasibility study isn't even complete and you are saying the thrust requirements have been released. Anyway, yes the M-88-3 ECO core will be able to power the AMCA even at 120KN.

 

[rudresh]

LCA's current requirement is not 120Kn, but it is 95KN. The F414 at 98KN is an obvious choice.

The M-88-3 is set to give 95KN which conforms to the requirements as laid down by IAF.

Anyway, yes the M-88-3 ECO core will be able to power the AMCA even at 120KN.

brand new m88 4 eco core is giving only 95kn less than ge 414 which is at 98kn.
as such how much time is needed for m88 to give near to 120kn no less than 6 - 8 years by the least.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

brand new m88 4 eco core is giving only 95kn less than ge 414 which is at 98kn.
as such how much time is needed for m88 to give near to 120kn no less than 6 - 8 years by the least.

It took the French 15 years to make the engine work and to even start limited production the engine only produces 50kN and they have still not gone above that range, at this rate mulling over 98kN or 110kN is far feached and to even arive to the EJ standard its going to take more than 5years for such R&D. This is one of the key reasons the MRCA deal may swing towards EADS who have an more powerful engine which they may transfer ToT for that. Not to mention M-88 was rejected by the EADS Euro fighter program which went in for the Rolls Royce design instead because the french engine is less efficient and consumes more fuel. So the French cut relations with EADS and went alone and designed the Rafael to make EADS pay, so the deal with IAF will finally let us know who made who pay for parting ways against each other.

 

[pmaitra]

Can i even argue against such an vague argument like yours? How is asking questions putting words in other peoples mouth? Did i force him to tell that? Did he change what he says after i ask, my god man what is wrong with you!!

There where plenty of other discussions with HAL scientists, DMRL, GTRE but it would be embracing if i held a camera while asking questions and i dont have to prove that to you, which is a waste of time. Now you can go on and demolish video proof while you dont even have an second hand article to support your claim and what are you arguing against anyway?

Read my previous posts and conversations with others. You will see links supporting 70-75 kN as well as 65 kN. Your video says 52 kN.

Nobody knows what the real thrust is. You have posted a video that does not prove anything you say. You don't have to prove anything to me or anyone else. If you could at all prove, you would have posted those videos already.

It is not me alone. See quote below:

He doesn't say what you want him to say. You are being disingenuous with the facts. Ajay talked to Rao so there really isn't anything to argue.

You made a claim and it is hitherto unsupported. Period.

 

[rudresh]

It took the French 15 years to make the engine work and to even start limited production the engine only produces 50kN and they have still not gone above that range, at this rate mulling over 98kN or 110kN is far feached and to even arive to the EJ standard its going to take more than 5years for such R&D. This is one of the key reasons the MRCA deal may swing towards EADS who have an more powerful engine which they may transfer ToT for that. Not to mention M-88 was rejected by the EADS Euro fighter program which went in for the Rolls Royce design instead because the french engine is less efficient and consumes more fuel. So the French cut relations with EADS and went alone and designed the Rafael to make EADS pay, so the deal with IAF will finally let us know who made who pay for parting ways against each other.

this is what i expected no matter what ever the french do to their very small m88 core will not be able to exceed 98 or 100 kn as for now 120kn is impossible with current dimensions of m88 . if core has to output that much amount of power it requires bypass ratio of .8 or so materials that withstand 2200 or near that temp which is impossible instead of that french materials for kaveri will bring it to 120kn right now or with in an year.

anything more than that will require major engine modification and 10 more years for research we can expect metal matrix composites by that time ......

 

[rudresh]

52kn is the dry thrust and the thrust with the afterburner is 81kn those are the designed thrust numbers for kaveri
and the kaveri is giving near to 49 dry and 75kn afterburner thrust in russia.
it was told 65kn previously may be because of the old materials inside the kaveri core that may be 2 -3 years before any way dont trust the ddm articles wherin the reporters will not be able to differentiate between kaveri engine or ej engine.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Read my previous posts and conversations with others. You will see links supporting 70-75 kN as well as 65 kN. Your video says 52 kN.

Nobody knows what the real thrust is. You have posted a video that does not prove anything you say. You don't have to prove anything to me or anyone else. If you could at all prove, you would have posted those videos already.

It is not me alone. See quote below:



You made a claim and it is hitherto unsupported. Period.

It looks apparently clear you dont know the difference between wet thrust and dry thrust and yet you talk with such conviction. It is been clear that the Wet Thrust is 75kN and the Dry Thrust is 50-52kN. The issue has been with reliability,metallurgy, weight and it also consumes a lot of fuel, lot more than other engine in its class. Your argument is vague and totally amateur in context and not dealing with the real problems faced by the engine. You should end discussion when you realize that you are not sure of what your talking about.

What proof would be required than scientists working on that engine spelling out its details? Your absolutely dead wrong on your assertion.

 

[pmaitra]

52kn is the dry thrust and the thrust with the afterburner is 81kn those are the designed thrust numbers for kaveri
and the kaveri is giving near to 49 dry and 75kn afterburner thrust in russia.
it was told 65kn previously may be because of the old materials inside the kaveri core that may be 2 -3 years before any way dont trust the ddm articles wherin the reporters will not be able to differentiate between kaveri engine or ej engine.

@Rudresh,

I am trying to untangle this jumble of numbers. Let me make a hypothesis and please correct me if I am wrong. References will be greatly appreciated.

Kaveri Engine Thrust:

• dry thrust - Targetted 52 kN, achieved 49 kN.
• afterburner thrust - Targetted 81 kN, achieved 75 kN.

Is this correct according to you?

 

[pmaitra]

It looks apparently clear you dont know the difference between wet thrust and dry thrust and yet you talk with such conviction. It is been clear that the Wet Thrust is 75kN and the Dry Thrust is 50-52kN. The issue has been with reliability,metallurgy, weight and it also consumes a lot of fuel, lot more than other engine in its class. Your argument is vague and totally amateur in context and not dealing with the real problems faced by the engine. You should end discussion when you realize that you are not sure of what your talking about.

What proof would be required than scientists working on that engine spelling out its details? Your absolutely dead wrong on your assertion.

Yes, you are right. If fact, I don't even know what thrust is. I am a highschool dropout.

BTW, go back to your video. Why is there a 75 in your question and a 52 in the immediate response you got? Did you know the difference between dry and afterburner thrust when you were asking that question in that video?

Quit embarrassing yourself.

What proof would be required than scientists working on that engine spelling out its details? Your absolutely dead wrong on your assertion.

Keep speculating.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Yes, you are right. If fact, I don't even know what thrust is. I am a highschool dropout.

BTW, go back to your video. Why is there a 75 in your question and a 52 in the immediate response you got? Did you know the difference between dry and afterburner thrust when you were asking that question in that video?

Quit embarrassing yourself.

You apparently did not even know the difference and you mixed wet thrust with dry thrust number, you should learn to read, what i had told was later when i turned off my phone camera we had discussion and in that most of them there told me its 75kN. If i was disingenuous i could have claimed that was the reported thrust and not target thrust and people would not have understood what he meant in that video.

Its a huge mistake and i see how professional debaters here are. Sitting in US you should know something over the details more than people who meet the teams. Kudos.

 

[pmaitra]

You apparently did not even know the difference and you mixed wet thrust with dry thrust number, you should learn to read, what i had told was later when i turned off my phone camera we had discussion and in that most of them there told me its 75kN. If i was disingenuous i could have claimed that was the reported thrust and not target thrust and people would not have understood what he meant in that video.

Its a huge mistake and i see how professional debaters here are. Sitting in US you should know something over people who meet the teams.

Fine. So what was Vladimir79 talking about? What's up with 65 kN? Is it dry or afterburner thrust? To me it is the latter. There is a supporting link as well. Do you refute that too?

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Fine. So what was Vladimir79 talking about? What's up with 65 kN? Is it dry or afterburner thrust? To me it is the latter. There is a supporting link as well. Do you refute that too?

Listen man i spent a whole day discussing with them and there is nothing in what they spoke that suggests that it is 65kN. Ajay Sukla spoke with Rao in 2009 and wrote the article in 2010, when i shot a mail to Ajay and Shiv Aroor he later reported a story that claimed its 75kN. Shiv Aroor reports it as 75kN wet thrust. You want to win for the sake of you being right all the time, then go ahead. I can come up with an article that shows elephants can jump. So good luck.