Kaveri Engine

[Yusuf]

Hello!!! Can we stay courteous with each other?

 

[RPK]

The Cabinet Committee on Security on Wednesday will consider a revised proposal for purchase of C-17s

Q) how then it is related to kaveri engine ?

A) For $4.1 billion, with upfront offsets of $1.12 billion , outlines the offsets including a High Altitude Engine Test Facility and Trisonic Wind Tunnel Facility valued at $510 million, for the Defence Research & Development Organisation.
India's access to advanced technology air tunnel would be important as it has depended on Russian test facilities to evaluate the indigenous Kaveri jet engine, which was to be used in the LCA project.

Decks cleared for purchase of 10 C-17s with offsets | IAF News: Airforce, Army, Navy, Coast Guard, Space, Missile

 

[rudresh]

The M-88 core inside the Kaveri is the only option we have as of today. We don't have any other engine project.

GE F414 is not yet 120KN and may not even be 120KN. It is still 4 years away from operational use. First orders are to arrive only in 2014. LCA's current requirement is not 120Kn, but it is 95KN. The F414 at 98KN is an obvious choice.

The M-88-3 is set to give 95KN which conforms to the requirements as laid down by IAF.

ADA has never said they will require a thrust of 110KN for AMCA. Heck, the feasibility study isn't even complete and you are saying the thrust requirements have been released. Anyway, yes the M-88-3 ECO core will be able to power the AMCA even at 120KN.

Kaveri-Snecma engine to power AMCA ?
Published May 21, 2011

SOURCE : IDRW NEWS NETWORK

If sources are to be believed ADA has send a Technical requirement detail for the engines which will power India's locally developed 5th Generation fighter aircraft to the GTRE recently .ADA which is the prime development organisation of the Advance Medium Combat Aircraft is looking for an engine in 100 to 110 kn thrust range, and while the work on the preliminary designs are almost done and work on the AMCA Project will officially began from July 2011 onwards for which 2 billion Dollars have already been allocated for the AMCA Project.

GTRE has successfully carried out first batch of on board trials on a modified IL-76 Test Bed in Russia. Even though Kaveri engine project has been delinked from LCA Project few years back , GTRE is still hope full that current Kaveri engines might power Tejas MK-1 aircrafts when their GE Provided F-404IN engines will come up for replacement.

GTRE and French for long time wanted to work on a new Kaveri Hybrid based on M-88-3 Eco, but due to GTRE engine already been delinked on LCA Project , French wanted specific commitment on the engine order , now if the news is correct then the joint venture might finally start off .

ADA is taking very similar approach like it did with LCA Project and will roll out first Technological Demonstrators (AMCA TD-1 and TD-2) in next 5 to 6 years and have first flight in next one year after the roll out. Experts believe that ADA might use GE Provided F-414IN engine which has been already selected by ADA to power Tejas MK-2 jets.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

amca is far away from induction-15 years at earliest.hope drdo invest more on kaveri programme and comes up with a fully indegeneous engine rather than borrowing the core from france.

 

[plugwater]

amca is far away from induction-15 years at earliest.hope drdo invest more on kaveri programme and comes up with a fully indegeneous engine rather than borrowing the core from france.

Even F414 and EJ200 took more than a decade to develop. So we can conclude GTRE alone cant deliver a 100KN thrust engine in 15 years but we can develop two engine, completely new indigenous engine and another with Snecma, So that we can power AMCA-1 with latter version and AMCA-2 with former version.

 

[rudresh]

amca is far away from induction-15 years at earliest.hope drdo invest more on kaveri programme and comes up with a fully indegeneous engine rather than borrowing the core from france.

it is very very difficult for GTRE alone to come up with 5th gen engine even if the jv is going to bring an engine it will be by the adoption of the previous work ie upgraded and uprated with new materials

if we want an indegeneous modren high bypass, low sfc ,high thrust,highly reliable engine the work may start only after 2020 but for amca it is better if we test the jv engine as soon as possible and prove its ability by the time the prototype arrives proven engine with out any major modifications will go a long way.

it is better if we build the engine completely in india from the raw materials sourced mostly in india few parts from another vendor will be a mystery for the rest of its life if this is not taken care of or we must get the ability to atleast to run at lower power from completely indian made raw materials for all the engine parts including the core.

later the high end fundas may come up with mlu etc etc as ....f414 transformed from normal 414----EDE ---EPE.

slow and steady wins the race

 

[p2prada]

if we want an indegeneous modren high bypass, low sfc ,high thrust,highly reliable engine the work may start only after 2020 but for amca it is better if we test the jv engine as soon as possible and prove its ability by the time the prototype arrives proven engine with out any major modifications will go a long way.

Why do we need a high bypass engine? AMCA isn't a bomber and we have limited plans of building a passenger plane. We need a low bypass engine, but not a leaky engine like the Kaveri.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Why do we need a high bypass engine? AMCA isn't a bomber and we have limited plans of building a passenger plane. We need a low bypass engine, but not a leaky engine like the Kaveri.

Are you sure?!!!! Do you think people with Phds, Masters in engineering, IIT,IISC graduates and Professors who are working on it or are linked to the projects scientific pool and advisory panel would not have thought about a basic and rudimentary question like that? You think an internet troll such as yourself with silly uneducated and superficial guess would right guess all those educated hard working people?

They had 10 cores and engine designs, till they finally froze it to k-9 and k-10 core. The core only needs to drive an fan at high speed to allow more cold air to by pass it, after many years scientists all over the world have found that High bypass is better and more economical as the by pass air produces more thrust. The engine technology is a black art which is never shared by countries that have them and is devilishly hard to master alone. You can ask questions but to talk as if your right and everyone does not know a thing and condemning their work is deplorable. I think i will leave it at that and not mull over your responses.

 

[p2prada]

Are you sure?!!!! Do you think people with Phds, Masters in engineering, IIT,IISC graduates and Professors who are working on it or are linked to the projects scientific pool and advisory panel would not have thought about a basic and rudimentary question like that? You think an internet troll such as yourself with silly uneducated and superficial guess would right guess all those educated hard working people?

They had 10 cores and engine designs, till they finally froze it to k-9 and k-10 core. The core only needs to drive an fan at high speed to allow more cold air to by pass it, after many years scientists all over the world have found that High bypass is better and more economical as the by pass air produces more thrust. The engine technology is a black art which is never shared by countries that have them and is devilishly hard to master alone. You can ask questions but to talk as if your right and everyone does not know a thing and condemning their work is deplorable. I think i will leave it at that and not mull over your responses.

...says the self proclaimed genius.

 

[rudresh]

Why do we need a high bypass engine? AMCA isn't a bomber and we have limited plans of building a passenger plane. We need a low bypass engine, but not a leaky engine like the Kaveri.

a simpleanswer would be higher fuel efficiency
the whole world is moving with hibipass engines-ej200,f414,snegma and chinese engines........if they are moving with such an engine there should be some advantage .......please serch some more

and what do u mean by we have limited plans of building a passenger plane....MRTA eventually to 100 seater,RTA, saras.........russians were mulling for ms21with india for 200,300,400 seater .... and why do they want to build it with india.

france has got an engine on mirage by the name m53 the worst turbofan engine mated with one of the best airframes after that they are back to m88.

 

[p2prada]

a simpleanswer would be higher fuel efficiency
the whole world is moving with hibipass engines-ej200,f414,snegma and chinese engines........if they are moving with such an engine there should be some advantage .......please serch some more

and what do u mean by we have limited plans of building a passenger plane....MRTA eventually to 100 seater,RTA, saras.........russians were mulling for ms21with india for 200,300,400 seater .... and why do they want to build it with india.

france has got an engine on mirage by the name m53 the worst turbofan engine mated with one of the best airframes after that they are back to m88.

Firstly you have to understand the difference between a low bypass engine and a high bypass engine. The engine examples you gave are all low bypass engines.

Eg for high bypass engines are PS-90A on the Phalcon A-50, then we have PW-2000 on the Boeing 757 and the RM-211 for Boeing passenger aircraft.

Kaveri and the F-404 are leaky turbojets because the guide vanes and intakes close to allow a smaller amount of bypass air to pass through for supersonic flight. This reduces SFC for aircraft. Leaky engines like the Kaveri became outdated 20 years ago.

Anything we develop for passenger market will have Russian or western engines for the foreseeable future. So, why the fuss?

If we give high bypass engines to fighters, firstly the engine will be bigger than the aircraft, next the engine will never be able to power the aircraft for supersonic flight. It's like trying to fix a car engine on a motorbike.

 

[rudresh]

Firstly you have to understand the difference between a low bypass engine and a high bypass engine. The engine examples you gave are all low bypass engines.

Eg for high bypass engines are PS-90A on the Phalcon A-50, then we have PW-2000 on the Boeing 757 and the RM-211 for Boeing passenger aircraft.

Kaveri and the F-404 are leaky turbojets because the guide vanes and intakes close to allow a smaller amount of bypass air to pass through for supersonic flight. This reduces SFC for aircraft. Leaky engines like the Kaveri became outdated 20 years ago.

Anything we develop for passenger market will have Russian or western engines for the foreseeable future. So, why the fuss?

coooooooooooooool down
i just ment slightly higher bypass military turbofans - i know what i have written and agree they are low bypass but i just ment slightly higher bypass ratios
compare
m53----m88
f404----f414
k9------k10

i think u got it


If we give high bypass engines to fighters, firstly the engine will be bigger than the aircraft, next the engine will never be able to power the aircraft for supersonic flight. It's like trying to fix a car engine on a motorbike.

it can be used commercially also

GE Aviation expects to begin ground tests in October in Peebles, Ohio, on a unique GEF414 F/A-18 fighter jet engine featuring a ceramic matrix composite low-pressure turbine blade that offers weight-savings and fuel-efficiency potential for military and commercial engines.

link
https://aviationweek.com/aw/generic...ew GE Engine Has Potential For Commercial Use

 

[Godless-Kafir]

To begin with the Kaveri is a low bypass engine and there are no simple answers and solutions to get a military turbo fan to produce 75kN, I think the jet engine has ceased to be simple right after Frank Whittle made a basic design during WW-2. Since then every possible combination right from blade angle to material has been tried out, as a result it has become extremely complex to comprehend for the lay man. Its because the West had a very early start and they have tried out every possible combination to get to the desired Thrust, they have all the do's and dont's of design stored in their vast data pool, which has accumulated as an result of billions spent over 6 decades!! We on the other hand have to go through all the Don't and add it to our data pool before we can get to that kind of thrust. It involves a whole lot of numbers that is mind boggling and complex and no country will share the secrets.

IMO I think they must have not played too much with the Hi-bypass because the Size of the kaveri engine is very small for any Fan to make any meaningful thrust so probably Military Turbofans general rely on compressor power more rather than Fan to push large amounts of air. Also the air entering the engine has to be slowed down to sub sonic levels, even if the air craft itself is flying at supersonic speeds, so transonic bladeing of the Fan would mean that the air will have to slow down anyway. The idea thrust would be 1:1 at Mach speeds and the thrust itself will not be faster than the flow of air around the aircraft?

P.S.. Notice the size of the core is evident with the initial blue streak at the center, that is the core exhaust. Later on the engine goes to full after burner where the entire nozzle becomes bright white.

 

[rudresh]

Godless-Kafir, every engine is different complex puzzle box they have their advantages and disadvantages previously when 2 retired gas turbine experts from USA were invited to have a look at kaveri engine they were initially foxed..... mathematical formulas,laws drive the engine basics but as u saidwe may be wrong to a smaller or greater extent these do and donts will get rectified over time..........time required for the indians may be far more lesser than others also.

we have ge404,may get 414,if typhoon selected then ej200,we have al31,may get al41 and snegma is our partner for k10 and lot of older engines if they some how analyse all these carefully we may get the answers or new ideas and solve the puzzle.

if our scientists have come this far ie to 75kn they have some solid undrestanding of these puzzle the game gets more intresting after every stage ....with 3d shaped parts inside the newer engines it may take some more time but we are there near it we need to go further and solve.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Godless-Kafir, every engine is different complex puzzle box they have their advantages and disadvantages previously when 2 retired gas turbine experts from USA were invited to have a look at kaveri engine they were initially foxed..... mathematical formulas,laws drive the engine basics but as u saidwe may be wrong to a smaller or greater extent these do and donts will get rectified over time..........time required for the indians may be far more lesser than others also.

we have ge404,may get 414,if typhoon selected then ej200,we have al31,may get al41 and snegma is our partner for k10 and lot of older engines if they some how analyse all these carefully we may get the answers or new ideas and solve the puzzle.

The problem is all engines have end user monitoring, you can not open an engine without their representative present. They have an office here in India and they send for regular checks. I asked the same question to one of the Scientists working in GTRE he told its virtually impossible to reverse engineer an engine because its hard to open one without the vendor knowing it and eventually they will cut supply if we do so. That is the reason every engine is unique and that is the reason i appericate the GTRE team because they relied on their own brains and not cut open a Russian engine like the Chinese did. The West has spent trillions on engine development and more than 6 decades to get to the current thrust of 52kN, We had couple of million dollars and 2 decades with no infrastructure to get where GTRE is now, even the test have to be conducted in Russia.

If people cant appreciate that then they have a deep lack of knowledge and perhaps thats why they troll around on forums insulting on baseless terms.

 

[rudresh]

The problem is all engines have end user monitoring, you can not open an engine without their representative present. They have an office here in India and they send for regular checks. I asked the same question to one of the Scientists working in GTRE he told its virtually impossible to reverse engineer an engine because its hard to open one without the vendor knowing it and eventually they will cut supply if we do so. That is the reason every engine is unique and that is the reason i appericate the GTRE team because they relied on their own brains and not cut open a Russian engine like the Chinese did. The West has spent trillions on engine development and more than 6 decades to get to the current thrust of 52kN, We had couple of million dollars and 2 decades with no infrastructure to get where GTRE is now, even the test have to be conducted in Russia.

If people cant appreciate that then they have a deep lack of knowledge and perhaps thats why they troll around on forums insulting on baseless terms.

hal assembles the parts of the russian rd 33
the deal with f404 may be like that but 414 will be mostly made in india critical core materials will come from usa atleast there also we are assembling the engines part by part
with al31 we are completely making it from rawmaterials{supplied from russia} in india al 41will also end up in a simillar manner
and what about mmrca winner engines they will be mostly manufactured in india and are going to be assembled in india only

and now cant they make some inferences out of it .............i think surely they will give out something.

even if it done under their strict supervision u can get what u want out of it if u r really desperate and capable enough.


i know even if we cut the engine out it will be very difficult to learn something out of it be cause we will not be able to know what was the reason behind it for the above configuration.....yes but somethings can be surely concluded after studing it for some timebut indian scientists have already created the kaveri which gives respectable thrust ......i strongly belive they know how to do the things but are held with only the material knowledge.

when u have an almost similar product u know which part will be for what .....now the changes for the same part from the previous and the newer part ......what is the change and what is the end result ....and what are the changes to be made for our engine to achive that.

 

[p2prada]

Godless-Kafir, every engine is different complex puzzle box they have their advantages and disadvantages previously when 2 retired gas turbine experts from USA were invited to have a look at kaveri engine they were initially foxed..... mathematical formulas,laws drive the engine basics but as u saidwe may be wrong to a smaller or greater extent these do and donts will get rectified over time..........time required for the indians may be far more lesser than others also.

The reason they were foxed is because the engine was so old, they had no idea or "forgotten" how the technology worked. If you have seen the movie Space Cowboys that will give you an example of what the Kaveri is.

The problem is all engines have end user monitoring, you can not open an engine without their representative present. They have an office here in India and they send for regular checks. I asked the same question to one of the Scientists working in GTRE he told its virtually impossible to reverse engineer an engine because its hard to open one without the vendor knowing it and eventually they will cut supply if we do so.

The LCA program was started without an engine present. This is known. We did not have any reason to cut open the F-404 for any reason.

That is the reason every engine is unique and that is the reason i appericate the GTRE team because they relied on their own brains and not cut open a Russian engine like the Chinese did.

Appreciation is all good. But they haven't delivered. So there is nothing to appreciate unless you are one of those guys who says, "Ah! We lost, but at least the boys played well." Your posts indicate you are definitely more than 35 or 40 years old.

The West has spent trillions on engine development and more than 6 decades to get to the current thrust of 52kN, We had couple of million dollars and 2 decades with no infrastructure to get where GTRE is now, even the test have to be conducted in Russia.

The US did it cheaper than we did and did it even before the Kaveri program was even thought of. So, that 6 decades claim goes down the drain. The GE F404 first flew in 1978, Kaveri hasn't even been fitted on a fighter after more than 20 years.

If people cant appreciate that then they have a deep lack of knowledge and perhaps thats why they troll around on forums insulting on baseless terms.

No. In my eyes or anybody's eyes there is no appreciation for having "tried." We aren't talking about some school kids playing cricket for the first time. These projects are meant to protect our country. The Kaveri program has cost the exchequer $2Billion and not a couple of Millions. The 2 decades, infrastructure from scratch yada yada are only excuses losers give to console themselves.

Sorry matey. You are one of the old timers who is satisfied with what he has. I am not one of those guys.

It's a simple life for us young ones, deliver or die. The clients will tell that straight to your face. Tried isn't good enough and will never be good enough. Call me a troll as much as you want, no GTRE scientist can claim nothing anywhere in the world. They don't have anything to defend themselves with anyways.

We are so desperate for engine technology that the French are now dictating terms for the GTRE-Snecma engine and are openly laughing at our inability to develop a satisfactory engine. Actually the whole world is. If you are so blind to the truth, then I would rather be a troll than the genius that you are.

 

[rudresh]

The reason they were foxed is because the engine was so old, they had no idea or "forgotten" how the technology worked. If you have seen the movie Space Cowboys that will give you an example of what the Kaveri is.


how come u r so much sure about it ..........and u know what they told after that .........sufficient effort has been made by india in forming kaveri ..........and they were ready to partner with india to make kaveri a world class engine............what is ur openion now.


Appreciation is all good. But they haven't delivered. So there is nothing to appreciate unless you are one of those guys who says, "Ah! We lost, but at least the boys played well." Your posts indicate you are definitely more than 35 or 40 years old.


i think u r having a much more modern engine than kaveri with u and whole india and indians are afraid of ur technology.

The US did it cheaper than we did and did it even before the Kaveri program was even thought of. So, that 6 decades claim goes down the drain. The GE F404 first flew in 1978, Kaveri hasn't even been fitted on a fighter after more than 20 years.

and how many indians and other foreign nationals helped america to achive.

No. In my eyes or anybody's eyes there is no appreciation for having "tried." We aren't talking about some school kids playing cricket for the first time. These projects are meant to protect our country. The Kaveri program has cost the exchequer $2Billion and not a couple of Millions. The 2 decades, infrastructure from scratch yada yada are only excuses losers give to console themselves.
Sorry matey. You are one of the old timers who is satisfied with what he has. I am not one of those guys.
It's a simple life for us young ones, deliver or die. The clients will tell that straight to your face. Tried isn't good enough and will never be good enough. Call me a troll as much as you want, no GTRE scientist can claim nothing anywhere in the world. They don't have anything to defend themselves with anyways.

complete nonsence...........it is not 2 much ........u r exceeding 4 much.......... only four countries in the world has achived this and it is more than great on seeing the indian conditions 15 years ago india was defined with tvs,maruthi 700,premier padmini,ambassidor..........and these were transferred from father to son as inherited property ................u have forgot all thes on seeing karizma ......and bollywood.

come out ..........have a good coffe.........the truth is ......kaveri is much better than what the iaf has today for fighters and they have requested kaveri to be wholly indian {saw an article last month}.


We are so desperate for engine technology that the French are now dictating terms for the GTRE-Snecma engine and are openly laughing at our inability to develop a satisfactory engine.

that is true to some extent that we are desparate for engine tech and an experinced partner to compress the time for kaveri to achive its goals .....we are not so much desperate also GTRE team is keenly awaiting the test results from russia so that we can bargain as much as possible .........but french want this trauma to be completed as early as possible .........but they are not laughing at us.


Actually the whole world is. If you are so blind to the truth, then I would rather be a troll than the genius that you are.

is the isreal,north korea,china,australia,japan.........laughing at us on seeing the kaveri engine ............ what about their own engines ............... to refresh ur memory japan listed kaveri for their ATD-X programme ........be happy being an indian ...........the world laughes at self flagellating indians .......but they respect indian scientists very much.

 

[rudresh]

o my god i saw that slide presentation at aero india for super hornet it shows GEIN6 model as 22000 pounds and the scientists from GTRE were telling that the indian and french jv for engine ie kaveri 2 will be similar to the GEIN6 ie 98kn oh what a disaster

 

[p2prada]

how come u r so much sure about it ..........and u know what they told after that .........sufficient effort has been made by india in forming kaveri ..........and they were ready to partner with india to make kaveri a world class engine............what is ur openion now.

Haha! They will tell anything to please the people who are paying them. The engine tech we used is ancient by today's standards. Sufficient effort was made. But the result reflects in GTRE's inability to put the engine on a fighter for test flights.

and how many indians and other foreign nationals helped america to achive.

Does it matter? Replace all the GTRE scientists with Russians and Americans then. Even today we don't have an engine that is flight tested. At least the Chinese have flight tested their engines.

complete nonsence...........it is not 2 much ........u r exceeding 4 much.......... only four countries in the world has achived this and it is more than great on seeing the indian conditions 15 years ago india was defined with tvs,maruthi 700,premier padmini,ambassidor..........and these were transferred from father to son as inherited property ................

15 years ago, all the products you named mostly used foreign engines. We built our first aircraft in the 60s. We still don't have an engine. People recognize you with what you accomplished and not what you tried.

u have forgot all thes on seeing karizma ......and bollywood.

I don't watch Bollywood. I don't own a Karizma either. I have the Honda Unicorn, a much better bike.

come out ..........have a good coffe.........the truth is ......kaveri is much better than what the iaf has today for fighters and they have requested kaveri to be wholly indian {saw an article last month}.

ROTFL! You are an obvious loggerhead. Was this article written by an Indian or a foreigner? What is the credibility of the writer? Does he know what he is writing about? Does he even know what a compressor is?

IAF has the M-53, AL-31FP, the GE F404 and now will take deliveries of either the EJ-200 or M88 along with GE F414. Each of these engines are much better than the Kaveri.

IAF had requested Kaveri to be wholly Indian. But GTRE said they cannot deliver. That's why there is the GTRE-Snecma JV.

that is true to some extent that we are desparate for engine tech and an experinced partner to compress the time for kaveri to achive its goals .....we are not so much desperate also GTRE team is keenly awaiting the test results from russia so that we can bargain as much as possible .........but french want this trauma to be completed as early as possible .........but they are not laughing at us.

Haha! Keep comforting yourself as much as you can. You have never seen how much ego a guy with a Phd has. They are laughing at us as loud as they can.

Even if GTRE succeeds with K-9, it won't change the fact that it is of little use to the IAF.

is the isreal,north korea,china,australia,japan.........laughing at us on seeing the kaveri engine ............ what about their own engines ............... to refresh ur memory japan listed kaveri for their ATD-X programme ........be happy being an indian ...........the world laughes at self flagellating indians .......but they respect indian scientists very much.

Self flagellating is good, especially when there are dunder heads all around. Without it we would never get anywhere. The Americans are currently flagellating themselves over our UID program. Senators are being highly critical about not having an equivalent program.

What makes you think we are in the high seat? The Chinese will be laughing at our attempts to make the Kaveri. Why wouldn't they? We are the ones saying we are equals.

The Kaveri has been a disappointing project. Even the GTRE-Snecma Kaveri isn't Kaveri, it is the GTRE-Snecma M88. We have dumped our Kaveri's Kabini core to the M88's ECO core. That speaks a lot about our current capability.