Kaveri Engine

rudresh

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Ajai Shukla penned the words right out of my mouth. That's what I've been thinking to, one reason I haven't posted much on this thread.

What Ajai Shukla says is wholly possible. For the GTRE to be able to simultaneously increase thrust and reduce weight on the Kaveri will take years, for the current core flow is too high and the core obviously too large, and will therefore require redesigning of the Kabini core. Also, the afterburner entry mass flow is just too low, thus leading to decreased nozzle mass flow <the cause of the poor performance on the wet thrust>.

If the file on Kaveri is closed at this juncture, I'd be deeply disappointed, but I cannot say that it was all entirely unexpected.
now the core is validated {there is no chance of closing this programme { the thing if india need to become quite powerful and dominant in south }instead of throwing the core, just push the core into a bigger engine like al31{for example only} { i ask GTRE to start anew engine program a bigger high thrust class} i think then we will get a very high bypass ratio bingo alternate to al31 and second engine to amca and push the small m88 eco core to kaveri both india and france happy
 
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rudresh

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French have refused to transfer these technologies to India. Snecma's m88 core will be made in France and then transported to India where GTRE will integrate non-core systems to it. There is no technology transfer in this yet-tobe-signed deal.

Some people have wrong impression that French will transfer technology for money. Not even Russia will do that.

Anyways, India doesn't need SC blades now. DRDO-made SC blades have been used in improved Kaveri prototypes under flight tests in Russia. And as expected by technicians in GTRE, Kaveri is maturing fast. It has moved from 65KN to 80KN now, result of massive improvement in material technologies achieved post-2000, when Vajpayee approved additional material R&D fundings.

If IAF maintains its support behind Kaveri and doesn't close its funding(like they did with Marut), then in next 10 years, Indians can easily lower the gap between western and Indian engine technology.

Congrats to GTRE. You are making even Israelis jealous! Cheers!
EADS told that they would give sc tech to india if we opted for ej200 for LCA.

the deal with french will cost india 2 billion dollars the amount french paid for m88 the deal if approved will share some technologies and full tot for the french core we are not fools to pay french like that

FYI russian engine al31 is completely made in india from raw materials{will be modified in russia with suitable secret sos} sent from russia but it is not soo modern......any way no country will give the high end alloy compositions......more over the material properties of russian ore will not be similar to indian ores. so no chance of cloning of core.

india has sc tech under lab conditions{ there are many generations of sc blades like that of jets}...... not for serial manufacturing and we saw some blisk also in aero 2011 for some small engine if so can we manufacture the same blisk for large kaveri is doubtful and i am sure all these problems will be delt with french it is not much with tech but for large scale manufacturing at cheaper costs if not the price of sc with lower efficiency will sky rocket
 

SuperCommandoDhruv

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@rudresh,

EADS statement is a PR excercise. DRDO has made SC blades 4 years ago. EADS offer came far after that.

Also EADS will not transfer lab science behind SC blades, but only process. Noone transfers such technology.

Such statements are made everyday by every company manager. Don't read too much into it. LOL
 

SNB

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@ rudresh,
Look i do understand and agree, but what indian short sighted policies do not realize is bit by bit GTRE/DRDO has been getting the job done , they have come up with an indigenous single crystal blade for the engine and they have progressively reduced the weight of the engine , the main gripe of IAF was that the dry thrust should be 90-95 Kn , GTRE/DRDO has brought the thrust up from 65kn to 80 kn , as for the weight the GE-414 engine despite having the required 90Kn thrust is over weight so much so that the Tejas airframe has to be redesigned . The main boon to the country , if we continue the Kaveri K9 engine R&D is the applications , a non Ab engine for the RTA jet version, a smaller scaled down version for the IJT, MOST IMPORTANTLY the know how to build a better engine and finally be able to wean India from the foreign arms sellers who profit by selling weapons to both us and our enemies pakistan and to some extent china . When India buys foreign weapons its basically us paing to keep them superrior to us in technology and know how which they then use to dictate terms to us.
Well thats my two cents, not sure if u guys wil agree.
 

Armand2REP

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If GTRE was really at 80kN, India would suck it up and use it.
 

rudresh

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If GTRE was really at 80kN, India would suck it up and use it.
wait for some years that will also happen.



Also EADS will not transfer lab science behind SC blades, but only process. Noone transfers such technology.

if france has to be with india some secrets of sos formulations have to be given out ...........GTRE people know very well and france to.... if kaveris thrust has to be increased.

if 2 billion dollars deal has to be signed then france has to ......................otherwise this deal will be of no use.
 
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p2prada

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If GTRE was really at 80kN, India would suck it up and use it.
Achieved but with inferior quality and efficiency. ADA itself say the F-404 is superior to the Kaveri.

K-9 still has a couple of years to go before operational use. So, there is a lot of room for improvement.

@Rudresh

We already have AL-31FP's single crystal blades ToT. The French are open to giving up the M-88s core once the Kaveri project matures a bit more and even quicker if Rafale is chosen.

EADS is going to give ToT with full manufacturing rights if we select EF-2000. Both countries have offered full ToT for most hardware.
 

SNB

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@Armand2REF
What i have been reading in blogs and Russian/Indian web news outlets is that GTRE's Kaveri engine with he K9 core is at 75Kn-80Kn , however the shortsighted procurement policies of the IAF and Indian govt. never ceases to amaze me , so i cannot they would suck it up and use it. If it was the 80s or 90s when India was financially in bad straights financially, yea they would have. With the amount of money available now to the defense dept and also the amount of kick backs ......
 

SNB

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PS. sorry i really should re-read what i post , sorry for the spelling and the repeated words LOL
 

Armand2REP

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There was something critically wrong with Kaveri for it to be completely dissociated from LCA. CAG report says...

III Shortcomings in the engine developed

Despite incurring an expenditure of Rs 1,892 crore (Annexure-III) as of March 2010, the engine developed has many problems.

*The weight of Kaveri engine required to fly the LCA should not exceed 1100 Kg. The first assembled Kaveri K1 engine weighed around 1423.78 Kg. Therefore, GTRE embarked on a weight reduction plan as early as July 1993. However, due to delay in development of the component assemblies/modules, polymer composites, design and freezing, GTRE has not been able to achieve the derived weight in the engine and as of January 2009, the engine weighs 1235 Kg.

* Certain critical and crucial activities for successful development of Kaveri, viz. development of Compressor, Turbine and Engine Control System, have been lagging behind despite increase in cost by Rs 186.61 crore.

* GTRE has been unable to freeze the design of the turbine blades, the compressor has witnessed mechanical failure in performance and the engine control system is not flight-worthy.

Testing of the existing engines has also indicated short-comings. Various tests have to be undertaken at stages in order to test the different modules of the Kaveri engine for quality, efficiency and endurance. Audit found that critical tests for components have not been carried out owing to the absence of facilities. More significantly, tests carried out to evaluate the engine itself have revealed the following deficiencies:


Accepting the facts, the Ministry stated that delays in tests like EAT3, OAT4, PFRT5 and QT6 have increased the project cost quite substantially and that GTRE is putting all efforts to bridge the gap as early as possible. The Ministry added that the Altitude test on K8 engine is slated for 2009, however, FTB trials cannot commence till the performance of engine modules are proven to the desired level.

http://www.cag.gov.in/html/reports/defence/2010-11_16CA_AFN/chap5.pdf

So basically it was little more than a bench test tech demonstrator when it was cut from LCA.
 

Godless-Kafir

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There was something critically wrong with Kaveri for it to be completely dissociated from LCA. CAG report says...

III Shortcomings in the engine developed

Despite incurring an expenditure of Rs 1,892 crore (Annexure-III) as of March 2010, the engine developed has many problems.

*The weight of Kaveri engine required to fly the LCA should not exceed 1100 Kg. The first assembled Kaveri K1 engine weighed around 1423.78 Kg. Therefore, GTRE embarked on a weight reduction plan as early as July 1993. However, due to delay in development of the component assemblies/modules, polymer composites, design and freezing, GTRE has not been able to achieve the derived weight in the engine and as of January 2009, the engine weighs 1235 Kg.
The weight is not an issue the Kaveri is built as an test bed so the products used on it are not meant for flight, when and as it is required the robust parts can be brought down to size. Many of the parts like the exterior cladding, metal hoses have all been made for lab test requirements and when and where the extra weight can be shaved off. Currently the Kaveri weighs 1250kgs.


* Certain critical and crucial activities for successful development of Kaveri, viz. development of Compressor, Turbine and Engine Control System, have been lagging behind despite increase in cost by Rs 186.61 crore.
This is old news, since then DMRL and GTRE have manufactured the single crystal blade technology for the compressor spools and other key components which have been manufactured and are under going testing in Russia. The winter in Russia is particularly harsh so they postponed the tests and the last i checked they restarted it.

* GTRE has been unable to freeze the design of the turbine blades, the compressor has witnessed mechanical failure in performance and the engine control system is not flight-worthy.
Again old news, the design is frozen and on testing phase in Russia.

Testing of the existing engines has also indicated short-comings. Various tests have to be undertaken at stages in order to test the different modules of the Kaveri engine for quality, efficiency and endurance. Audit found that critical tests for components have not been carried out owing to the absence of facilities. More significantly, tests carried out to evaluate the engine itself have revealed the following deficiencies:

Almost all the short coming on the above table are out dated news.

Yes the lack of facility is a worrying and also delays work, what do you expect in 300million USD when countries in the west shell out billions to merely improve efficiency.

Accepting the facts, the Ministry stated that delays in tests like EAT3, OAT4, PFRT5 and QT6 have increased the project cost quite substantially and that GTRE is putting all efforts to bridge the gap as early as possible. The Ministry added that the Altitude test on K8 engine is slated for 2009, however, FTB trials cannot commence till the performance of engine modules are proven to the desired level.
Again old news, its already on FTB trails in Russia.

So basically it was little more than a bench test tech demonstrator when it was cut from LCA.
How is it a bench test when it is on the FTB already? There is also an early model LCA which is kept in storage for the Kaveri to be tested on. Your knowledge is quite amateur about the engine. There is no need for demonstrators, the engine is meant to power the LCA, if the Chinese had an engine that even worked as well as the Kaveri they would have strapped it on already. The IAF requirement keeps increasing and they dont accept even if it falls short by a little. currently they want the F-414 thrust when the initial air staff requirement was F-404 like engine, same goes for the LCA.
 
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Armand2REP

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Of course it is old news, people forgetting why it was disassociated from LCA is the point,.
 

rudresh

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kaveri Engine cycle

* Airflow: 172 lb/s (78.0 kg/s)
* Bypass ratio: 0.16:1
* Overall pressure ratio: 21.5:1 [Goal: 27:1]
* LP compressor pressure ratio: 3.4:1 [Goal: 4:1]
* HP compressor pressure ratio: 6.4:1
* Turbine entry temperature: 2,218-2,601 °F (1,214-1,427 °C; 1,487-1,700 K) [Goal: 3,357 °F (1,847 °C; 2,120 K)]

if kaveri is giving this much amount of thrust now for the above specks except for the bypass ratio it is .22.
with the french help it will be a massive change for the thrust and weight of the engine on seeing the above specks it is going to work out to be nearly 120kn near to american geIN6 if bypass is increased to .65 and Overall pressure ratio 30:1, LP compressor pressure ratio 4:1, Turbine entry temperature 1,800 c .

and this is not going to happen with the smaller french core and only kaveri core is feasible {since french engine has optimum configuration as for now}.

some technologies from france will be required for sure like super alloys and sc and low density blisk
good news is india has indegeneously developed technology to manufacture sic {silicon carbide} blades which are going to withstand 1800 c and with the new nickel super alloy etc etc ..... the future looks good for kaveri
 
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Godless-Kafir

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Of course it is old news, people forgetting why it was disassociated from LCA is the point,.
It is not disassociated in the sense that it has been scraped. It will be inducted in the Mk2 and the AMCA.
 

Armand2REP

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It is not disassociated in the sense that it has been scraped. It will be inducted in the Mk2 and the AMCA.
By the time the M88-3 core is put in, it will not be anywhere similar to the current engine.
 

Godless-Kafir

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By the time the M88-3 core is put in, it will not be anywhere similar to the current engine.
Thats not written down in stone, they have not finalized what is the exact way the Kaveri program should go. At this point no one know and which should mean that you dont know either. So takeing to the area of speculation does not win any points. Except prove some biased nationalistic point of west or France being better than India. Which no one will ever accept here. It would be falling on deaf ears and we would care very little for such rhetoric.

Contrary to popular belief on internet forums on weather engine technology will get outdated as soon as India catches up, Engine technology does not evolve as fast as other technology like in the field of Computer hard ware which doubles in capacity every 16 months or so. Relatively Jet engines and Rocket engines only evolve slowly compared to other fields so we are no danger of becoming obsolete if we catch up with other Cores. Even the current thrust is not obsolete considering the Rafaels M-88 engine produces the same thrust(50kN vs 75kN).
 
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Godless-Kafir

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Guys Please watch this Documentary if you want to discuss jet engines. Look at the trouble and cost even a big company like RR had to go through and how they got bankrupted trying to innovate a new engine.

Before people gawk at the technology and the precession of manufacturing, take a minute to realize that DMRL has also manufactured Single Crystal blades by itself, while Rolls Royce uses its scientific network in 3 countries, DMRL with its relatively low human resource has managed to manufacture Single Crystal and other high stress alloys by itself.

 
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sayareakd

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i want to ask when we will see LCA with Kaveri engine

LCA II with Kaveri


MCA with kaveri ???
 

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