Kaveri Engine

[Armand2REP]

Thats not written down in stone, they have not finalized what is the exact way the Kaveri program should go. At this point no one know and which should mean that you dont know either. So takeing to the area of speculation does not win any points. Except prove some biased nationalistic point of west or France being better than India. Which no one will ever accept here. It would be falling on deaf ears and we would care very little for such rhetoric.

Contrary to popular belief on internet forums on weather engine technology will get outdated as soon as India catches up, Engine technology does not evolve as fast as other technology like in the field of Computer hard ware which doubles in capacity every 16 months or so. Relatively Jet engines and Rocket engines only evolve slowly compared to other fields so we are no danger of becoming obsolete if we catch up with other Cores. Even the current thrust is not obsolete considering the Rafaels M-88 engine produces the same thrust(50kN vs 75kN).

You must be confused to compare the M88-2 which is a combat proven engine with a couple hundred thousand flight hours to the Kaveri which isn't fit for IAF use. To suggest India is anywhere near France in engine technology is comical. It isn't French nationalism... it is a statement of FACT.

Getting back to reality... Kaveri has been delinked from LCA MKII... FACT. Snecma and GTRE have completed technical evaluations and commercialisation discussions are proceeding... FACT. Snecma-GTRE JV is to be applied to AMCA.

The major hurdle for the deal is the commercial viability for Snecma to sign, if the production run is less than 250 engines it isn't worth it.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

You must be confused to compare the M88-2 which is a combat proven engine with a couple hundred thousand flight hours to the Kaveri which isn't fit for IAF use. To suggest India is anywhere near France in engine technology is comical. It isn't French nationalism... it is a statement of FACT.

Getting back to reality... Kaveri has been delinked from LCA MKII... FACT. Snecma and GTRE have completed technical evaluations and commercialisation discussions are proceeding... FACT. Snecma-GTRE JV is to be applied to AMCA.

The major hurdle for the deal is the commercial viability for Snecma to sign, if the production run is less than 250 engines it isn't worth it.

The M-88-2 produces how much thrust? You must be disturbed to see it produces the same thrust. If it is in the same range then the Kaveri which is on test bed is similar. Fact

It was not the Indian who approached for the JV it was the french who approached for the JV, which shows the French also needs India to get ahead to the next level.Fact

De-linking of Kaveri does not mean it will not be used on LCA or AMCA. Fact

The core is similar to EJ or M-88 so the difference will not be much and any alterations will be a good thing for both countries.

 

[Armand2REP]

The M-88-2 produces how much thrust? You must be disturbed to see it produces the same thrust. If it is in the same range then the Kaveri which is on test bed is similar. Fact

Yet M88-2 has a working engine with a T/W of 8.6 while Kaveri is a test bed T/W 5.76. The two don't even compare.

It was not the Indian who approached for the JV it was the french who approached for the JV, which shows the French also needs India to get ahead to the next level.Fact

Why would France approach India about an engine she don't need? It was INDIA who approached as always. FACT

De-linking of Kaveri does not mean it will not be used on LCA or AMCA. Fact

F414 is already purchased for LCA MkII which has been DELINKED from it... FACT

The core is similar to EJ or M-88 so the difference will not be much and any alterations will be a good thing for both countries.

EJ200 and M88-2 have nothing in common with the current Kaveri so the engine cores are very different than what will be needed to alter the engine to accept the uprated ECO core. FACT

 

[pmaitra]

Yet M88-2 has a working engine with a T/W of 8.6 while Kaveri is a test bed T/W 5.76. The two don't even compare.

^^ T/W ratio information is useful if it pertains to the aircraft and not the engine alone. The engine does not fly by itself.

• Snecma M88 - thrust 50 kN (75 kN with afterburner)
• Kaveri - thrust 75 kN (with or without afterburner? Information not available.)
• General Electric F404 - thrust 79 kN (with afterburner)
• General Electric F414 EPE - thrust 120 kN (with or without afterburner? Information not available.)
• IAF needs - thrust 95 kN

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Yet M88-2 has a working engine with a T/W of 8.6 while Kaveri is a test bed T/W 5.76. The two don't even compare.

Thats completely wrong, the TW is 7.8:1 which is comparable and not to mention weight will go down in future. The M-88 was rejected by the EADS in initial consideration for EF-2000. The M88 is a good engine but not close to EJ or F-414. FACT

Why would France approach India about an engine she don't need? It was INDIA who approached as always. FACT

With my discussions with the scientists i was told Snemca approached GTRE for partnership as GTRE put out the tender. He said "They approached us so we need to see how much we can get from them" That was what he told me, Just like in MRCA, they approached when the tender was out. Fact

F414 is already purchased for LCA MkII which has been DELINKED from it... FACT

But where does it state that it will not be used on the Tejas in future or on the AMCA or AURA. All sources say it will be used in the future. FACT

EJ200 and M88-2 have nothing in common with the current Kaveri so the engine cores are very different than what will be needed to alter the engine to accept the uprated ECO core. FACT

Both are 3 LP stage and 6 HP stage with Single stage HP LP turbines and yes the eco core would be given by Snemca but the French engine itself does not produce as much as the American or EJ one, so we have to wait and watch where this partnership goes. Fact

 

[Vladimir79]

The amount of nationalism in this thread makes me want to break out the flags...




There are three factors to compare engines:

1) TWR
2) TBO
3) ELE

Considering where Snecma is and where India wants to be, it is France that holds all the cards in this JV.

On a side note - Kaveri only ever achieved 65kN of wet thrust out of a design goal of 80kN.

 

[Armand2REP]

On a side note - Kaveri only ever achieved 65kN of wet thrust out of a design goal of 80kN.

Well then, it looks like a I was being generous assigning it a 70KN rating.

 

[pmaitra]

On a side note - Kaveri only ever achieved 65kN of wet thrust out of a design goal of 80kN.

Well then, it looks like a I was being generous assigning it a 70KN rating.

Ok guys, we are not pouring a peg of Curaçao that we need to be talking about generosity.

My source says Kaveri achieved 75 kN of thrust (70-75 to be precise). Could be wrong. Perhaps you guys can provide some links to support your respective versions of the story?

@Armand2REP, you were correct in stating 70 kN, so was I in stating 75 kN. My source says 70-75 kN. Choosing the lower limit is not exactly being generous.

@Vladimir79, links please.

Reference:
The Hindu : Sci-Tech / Technology : Kaveri engine to power fifth generation fighter aircraft

 

[Armand2REP]

Nah man, Vladi was right, it is only 65KN...

Mr Mohana Rao, the Director of GTRE told me that the indigenous Kaveri, which had a maximum thrust of 65 KN at full reheat, would never be able to power the LCA for two reasons: firstly, the LCA had turned out heavier than expected; secondly, in the words of Mr Rao, "The Kaveri turned out 15% heavier than we planned. From the planned 1100 kg, its final weight has gone up to 1265 kg."

http://www.indian-military.org/news-archives/57-others/1140-the-kaveri-engine-test-in-context.html

DRDO and French major snecma to finalize engine price for LCA
Kaveri jet engine finally poised for first flight

That actually gives it a T/W of only 5.25.

 

[pmaitra]

^^ Ok thanks for the info.

I trust The Hindu, but Ajay Shukla is also pretty good in reporting stuff, so I guess, to be on the safe side, we'll go with 65 kN.

 

[Armand2REP]

Considering Ajay is quoting the Director of GTRE, it is pretty sound info.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

The amount of nationalism in this thread makes me want to break out the flags...




There are three factors to compare engines:

1) TWR
2) TBO
3) ELE

Considering where Snecma is and where India wants to be, it is France that holds all the cards in this JV.

On a side note - Kaveri only ever achieved 65kN of wet thrust out of a design goal of 80kN.

This is wrong info by Ajay, i think it could be a typo.

Here in this small video interaction with me and the Scientists of both GTRE and DMRL they confirmed it was 75kN at reheat. These guys work on the engine every day.


He says the final design will have 81kN but when i persisted with the question of current thrust he said it was 75kN.

 

[Armand2REP]

This is wrong info by Ajay, i think it could be a typo.

Here in this small video interaction with me and the Scientists of both GTRE and DMRL they confirmed it was 75kN at reheat. These guys work on the engine every day.


He says the final design will have 81kN but when i persisted with the question of current thrust he said it was 75kN.

Actually, he said 52 dry and 81 wet which was the requirement that was never met. He doesn't say jack about 75.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Actually, he said 52 dry and 81 wet which was the requirement that was never met. He doesn't say jack about 75.

He told that to me off camera later on in the discussion. So what is there to mock when you would not even have understood that he mentioned the required thrust and not the actually thrust. I might as well put this up as proof of the argument without explaining myself honestly and you would have never known. However i belief in honest debate and not some silly nationalistic trolling.

 

[rudresh]

He says the final design will have 81kN but when i persisted with the question of current thrust he said it was 75kN.

this is true andconfirmed many times

but the real problem with the french core is the french core is very small and the max limit for that for now is bw 90-95kn so no chance that it is going to make to power amca for sure

onthe contrary kaveri core is very large and mass flow is very low and can be uprated to 110-120kn if we go with the french materials

so only kaveri is going to amca


Here in this small video interaction with me and the Scientists of both GTRE and DMRL they confirmed it was 75kN at reheat. These guys work on the engine every day.

if so can u just confirm it for us wheather they are going with m88 core or purchase of technologies to use it on kaveri engine

 

[Godless-Kafir]

He says the final design will have 81kN but when i persisted with the question of current thrust he said it was 75kN.

this is true andconfirmed many times

but the real problem with the french core is the french core is very small and the max limit for that for now is bw 90-95kn so no chance that it is going to make to power amca for sure

onthe contrary kaveri core is very large and mass flow is very low and can be uprated to 110-120kn if we go with the french materials

so only kaveri is going to amca

Well no one knows that for sure, a small core powering an large turbine will have more space for the air to pass through, considering this is a turbo fan engine. In this the compressor is only used to turn the large fan blade at the front and so a smaller core would mean there is enough space inside to allow more air. The actual problem here is that the French themselves have not achieved above 50kN at dry heat, so we have to wait and watch on how the JV is going deliver more thrust. Who knows they may switch to Kaveri core in between R&D.

All this limitations only tell me that IAF may go in for the Euro Fighter because there engine already produces more thrust and they will transfer the technology, which is an tempting offer. However i would like to see them go with the French because there is more scope to learn together.

 

[p2prada]

What I have recently heard is Kaveri can do 75KN. However the engine is a fail and not part of the LCA program anymore. The K-9 may be used to re engine the LCA Mk1 squadron after 2025. The GTRE-Snecma Kaveri K-10 is the real deal and will or may be part of the LCA Mk2 MLU later on. The K-10 may power the initial models of the AMCA if not the final version.

The M-88-2 is as fuel efficient as the EJ-200 or the F-414. Snecma has promised a modified core with lower SFC. So, it's not a big issue for us.

There is no clear set date for K-9s integration into LCA prototypes. But it could happen after 2016 or even 2018. I am guessing the K-10s prototype testing may happen only after 2018. Engines are complex pieces of hardware.

 

[Vladimir79]

This is wrong info by Ajay, i think it could be a typo.

Here in this small video interaction with me and the Scientists of both GTRE and DMRL they confirmed it was 75kN at reheat. These guys work on the engine every day.


He says the final design will have 81kN but when i persisted with the question of current thrust he said it was 75kN.

He doesn't say what you want him to say. You are being disingenuous with the facts. Ajay talked to Rao so there really isn't anything to argue.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

He doesn't say what you want him to say. You are being disingenuous with the facts. Ajay talked to Rao so there really isn't anything to argue.

You would not even have understood if i did not point out that he mentioned the target thrust and not current thrust. May be i must have not spoken about it. The fact is no one i spoke with told me the current thrust is 65kN. Ajay has an habit of throwing cold water over hot topics. So i am not saying anything anymore, lets wait and watch.

Your accusation of being disingenuous is totally uncalled for you should take such words back, Mr.Rao was arrested in a brothel last month and got transferred. Moreover the article reads 2010 while mine was taken in 2011 and no where in the article does it mention that Mr.Rao claimed the thrust was 65kN. You must read the article again and see it was Ajay who mentions the thrust, he did not quote anyone.

 

[pmaitra]

^^ @Godless-Kafir,

Look, I won't accuse you of lying or anything. Maybe you are right, but we do not have evidence.

All we know is what you stated are claims, and more importantly unsupported claims. Let us say whatever you said was prima facie. The interviewer in the video was putting words in the mouth of the interviewee and the latter replied in the negative. Hardly a video to convince people.