INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[pipebomb]

Sir you asked a lot of questions in your previous posts. So now may I ask you a humble question or two?

Why do you think the United States is the standard democratic model which all other democracies have to follow? And if US changes a policy why would everyone change that policy? It is the choice of their people to change their policy. We should not be influenced by choices of other people just because they are gora. We should train our own public opinion

Besides it is not logical to compare everything that us has with everything we have. The level of education that us politicians have (avg.) Is obviously more than that of Indian politicians (avg.). If you allow everyone to voice their own "DEMANDS" then the whole country would be in a mess.
First educate the public properly then you can think of televised hearings.

By the way, the argument you presented that why only insas has 20 rounds magazines and why not aks and tavors, is not an argument at all. It was specified by the army to provide the insas rifle with a 20 rounds magazine. Insas is an infantry rifle. It is not fully automatic. May be the 20 round mag and the burst mode was to encourage economic use of ammunition. But if you ask why other rifles have 30 rounds mag then your question becomes useless. Firstly aks and tavors come with their respective standard mag, changing which can be logistical disaster. Secondly you cannot have all weapons with 20 round mag. Aks and tavors were at first used by the sf who prefer 30 rounds mag. Besides 20 round mag weapons were pretty common at that time. Even the sig 716 uses 20 rounds mag.

your question sounds like why do we use bus for transportation? why not everyone travel by car?? Man, you have to understand army has different tasks from which different requirements arise.

And yes, demanding a rifle with 20 round mag is logical and not a fictious thing like the "flying MBT" that you mentioned. So be rational while making comparison.

It is good to be critical. But being overly critical to ridicule a defence organisation is actually a shameful act and misuse of one's fundamental right to speech.
This is why I said you have to train public opinion. If you ask these kind of questions then army would brand you as a "bloody civilian" only.
Regards.

Firstly "training public opinion" is a preposterous suggestion in a free democratic society IMHO. And there is no such things as 'misuse' of Freedom of speech, either we use it or loose it. FOE is more specifically needed for speeches we don't like. I didn't knew questioning of defence policy adopted in IA by our legislative is that radical of an idea .Our army is as much competent or corrupt as our police, civil services or our politicians because they all come from the same society. We certainly don't live in packieland where gernails/fouj are holier than thou and above public scrutiny.

Now where did i say US is the standard democratic model, there are certain things we can learn from them and vice-versa. You say its their people's choice, all i am asking that our people should has an option to choose as well. I am very sorry to disappoint you but a policy surely can't be disqualified solely because its adopted by goras.

Now to the main topic, you were speculating wheather 20 round mag with 3 round burst would have been implemented to encourage rationing ammo. Even if one look past how absurd your speculation is (why would one conserve ammo during breaking out of an ambush where auto fire is really needed or during suppressing fire, for everything else they had semiauto mode, or are you insinuating that IA soldiers so poorly trained that they can't be trusted with automatic mode as they would spent all their ammo ), this right here is the problem, we shouldn't have to speculate at all. All this should have been made public before going for procurement. There is no transparency and hence no accountability (could be by design), this is absurd. Speaking of which, you were saying 20 round mag were to conserve ammo, may i enquire how so. May i ask what role 20 mag serve that 30 mag can't. How did we arrive at 20,30,50 or whatever, there is no transparency. One could assume shifting from 7.62 of SLRs to 5.56 would allow more rounds to be carried per soldier( we see that atleast in other armies that made the shift from 7.62).

"aks and tavors come with their respective standard mag, changing which can be logistical disaster" how would this be problem for an army which has more than 5 different kinds of calibres for small arms.

Lastly "Besides 20 round mag weapons were pretty common at that time" to this i would reference to the words a 'wise' man once said "We should not be influenced by choices of other people just because they are gora".
One have to be a 'avval darje ka' hypocript to not see the irony.

 

[Chakraborty]

Firstly "training public opinion" is a preposterous suggestion in a free democratic society IMHO. And there is no such things as 'misuse' of Freedom of speech, either we use it or loose it. FOE is more specifically needed for speeches we don't like. I didn't knew questioning of defence policy adopted in IA by our legislative is that radical of an idea .Our army is as much competent or corrupt as our police, civil services or our politicians because they all come from the same society. We certainly don't live in packieland where gernails/fouj are holier than thou and above public scrutiny.

Now where did i say US is the standard democratic model, there are certain things we can learn from them and vice-versa. You say its their people's choice, all i am asking that our people should has an option to choose as well. I am very sorry to disappoint you but a policy surely can't be disqualified solely because its adopted by goras.

Now to the main topic, you were speculating wheather 20 round mag with 3 round burst would have been implemented to encourage rationing ammo. Even if one look past how absurd your speculation is (why would one conserve ammo during breaking out of an ambush where auto fire is really needed or during suppressing fire, for everything else they had semiauto mode, or are you insinuating that IA soldiers so poorly trained that they can't be trusted with automatic mode as they would spent all their ammo ), this right here is the problem, we shouldn't have to speculate at all. All this should have been made public before going for procurement. There is no transparency and hence no accountability (could be by design), this is absurd. Speaking of which, you were saying 20 round mag were to conserve ammo, may i enquire how so. May i ask what role 20 mag serve that 30 mag can't. How did we arrive at 20,30,50 or whatever, there is no transparency. One could assume shifting from 7.62 of SLRs to 5.56 would allow more rounds to be carried per soldier( we see that atleast in other armies that made the shift from 7.62).

"aks and tavors come with their respective standard mag, changing which can be logistical disaster" how would this be problem for an army which has more than 5 different kinds of calibres for small arms.

Lastly "Besides 20 round mag weapons were pretty common at that time" to this i would reference to the words a 'wise' man once said "We should not be influenced by choices of other people just because they are gora".
One have to be a 'avval darje ka' hypocript to not see the irony.

Well, sir most of the things you have said above are correct and to the point.
Just a few corrections are needed.
Firstly I am not disappointed and I never said that we should not inculcate good policies from the goras. I just said that we should not follow other's choices just because they are gora because there is much gora worship going on all over the country as a lot of people are ignorant have not come out of colonial mindset. That's where training public opinion comes into play. At first people need to learn to differentiate between things. People who still believe that the foreigners are superior can never voice a healthy opinion. Their opinion would be influenced by the foreigners. Training public opinion does not mean to impose certain opinions on the citizens, but to make them aware of the affairs that would help them to voice a opinion. So how can this be preposterous ?
Indian society is not like the US. Majority of Indians are illiterate. How can you expect a illiterate person to make a opinion unless he is educated ?
"I didn't knew questioning of defence policy adopted in IA by our legislative is that radical of an idea"- I never said this idea is radical. I just said -
"Besides it is not logical to compare everything that us has with everything we have. The level of education that us politicians have (avg.) Is obviously more than that of Indian politicians (avg.). If you allow everyone to voice their own "DEMANDS" then the whole country would be in a mess.First educate the public properly then you can think of televised hearings."


Secondly I never justified the 20 rounds mag. I just pointed out the possible cause and I also have used the word 'may'. And yes the speculation is not absurd at all. A lot of country used and still uses the 20 rounds mag. We ourselves use the 20 round mag for sig 716.
All you have said about accountability and transparency is true.

Now you have said about the usage of 5 different calibres which indeed is a logistical problem. But that does not mean we have to make it worse by converting the standard 30 round mags to 20 rounds mag.

Now coming to the next part. Again I would say I never said we should not inculcate the good things from foreigners. The SLR we used had 20 rounds mag. The M16 had 20 rounds mag while the ak had 30 round mag. The army chose the 20 round mag of the two. So whether we choose 30 or 20 it would be influenced by the foreigners because the foreigners pioneered the firearms technology and the standards set by the foreigners were combat proven. It is not wrong to choose from the options that were proven. We just chose the 20. Now why 20 ? You should ask the army if you cannot accept my speculation.

Now coming to the last point. In my previous post I never personally attacked or disrespected you. And I never said you should not criticize the armed forces. I just said overly criticizing them by using reference to irrelevant things like "flying mbt" to make them appear foolish is not something to be proud of. And the judge of Madras High court himself said that a lot of "misuse of freedom of speech" is going on. And then you are saying there is nothing called "misuse" of speech.
But in your post you have continued to insult me both overtly and in a sarcastic way.

You have branded my thoughts as absurd and preposterous while they are legit.( Training public opinion in a country where thousands of people are illiterate is not absurd. Using a 20 round mag is also not absurd). You have attacked me personally by calling me "a 'avval darje ka' hypocript". You are assuming I am disappointed while I have not expressed my disappointment. You are mocking at my comment by calling me a 'wise' man in a sarcastic way.

Sir, please do not disrespect others just to prove your point. I never said something offensive to you. I just wanted a open debate. And in a debate you should not disrespect others.
Regards.

 

[Kchontha]

Insas was a scapegoat....

 

[Marliii]

Insas was a scapegoat....

At the end it wasn't even INSAS it was 5.56 cartridge that got most scapegoated

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Can one 5.56 mm cartridge kill a person?
I have heard it is a very weak cartridge?

 

[Marliii]

Can one 5.56 mm cartridge kill a person?
I have heard it is a very weak cartridge?

Even the pistol calibre 9mm can kill a person easily I really don't know where the myth of 5.56 cant kill a person come from.in the early stages of Vietnam war the 5.56 did gruesome damage on its targets that people even questioned the morality of using the cartridge.

 

[Tactical Doge]

Can one 5.56 mm cartridge kill a person?
I have heard it is a very weak cartridge?

Check out Slo-mo ballistic Jelly wound channel videos in YouTube
It actually depends on the ammunition you use
Steel core will pass right through a human torso while a RIP ammunition splits into several segments and increases fatality of the wound
It is lethal ofcourse, But generally, less lethal than a larger rifle round like 7.62 NATO

 

[Spindrift]

Can one 5.56 mm cartridge kill a person?
I have heard it is a very weak cartridge?

Yes, it kills.
It's not a very weak cartridge. It creates a small wound cavity in relation to other calibers.

 

[pipebomb]

But generally, less lethal than a larger rifle round like 7.62 NATO

That argument can be made against any round, like a 50 cal is more lethal than 7.62 or a mortar is more lethal than 50 cal. All that matter is 5.56 does the job effectively to my knowledge. Let pak army surgeon worry about how to dig out a shattered round, even if he succeed patient would most probably left with permanent disability. Drawing disability benifits rest of his life, increasing pak army OPEX so a win-win for us. But if you go bigger calibre then hand held auto fire becomes progressively difficult. But that is too much good common sense which is an anathema to IA i guess also who can in their right mind doesn't want to settle in US after retirement with their children's future secured. Do not want to say more as any thing less than fouj worship is considered blasphemous in this forum it seems.

 

[Tactical Doge]

That argument can be made against any round, like a 50 cal is more lethal than 7.62 or a mortar is more lethal than 50 cal. All that matter is 5.56 does the job effectively to my knowledge. Let pak army surgeon worry about how to dig out a shattered round, even if he succeed patient would most probably left with permanent disability. Drawing disability benifits rest of his life, increasing pak army OPEX so a win-win for us. But if you go bigger calibre then hand held auto fire becomes progressively difficult. But that is too much good common sense which is an anathema to IA i guess also who can in their right mind doesn't want to settle in US after retirement with their children's future secured.

He asked about the 5.56 in the Indian context(read the thread title)
Why do you overthink every single thing biradar
Obviously Pakis use 7.62 in their service issue rifle and we use 5.56 in ours
Did I say it is not lethal? Comparatively paki G3s hits harder, while 5.56 makes up the lethality with ability fire more stable bursts

Do not want to say more as any thing less than fouj worship is considered blasphemous in this forum it seems.

Don't go there mate
Looks like you've been blackpilled too much by the SF thread

People here crticise Fauj over every aspect and lauds them when they can
Some memberans go as far as to call them Larpers or SFs as coslay commandoes!!!!!!

Don't give yourself too much of a headache going down that road

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

He asked about the 5.56 in the Indian context(read the thread title)
Why do you overthink every single thing biradar
Obviously Pakis use 7.62 in their service issue rifle and we use 5.56 in ours
Did I say it is not lethal? Comparatively paki G3s hits harder, while 5.56 makes up the lethality with ability fire more stable bursts



Don't go there mate
Looks like you've been blackpilled too much by the SF thread

People here crticise Fauj over every aspect and lauds them when they can
Some memberans go as far as to call them Larpers or SFs as coslay commandoes!!!!!!

Don't give yourself too much of a headache going down that road

Yes just like t 90 has a autoloader , can fire 8 rounds per minute but only fired mango rounds ( in indian case ) with 460 mm rha penetration at 2000 metres.
While I guess abrams has no autoloader still its one hit can disable almost all tanks
Similarly 7m62 ×51 mm hits harder but one can carry more 5.56 mm rounds with better accuracy etc

 

[NotASussyBoi]

Oi guys so this has been bugging me so ak 203 will be royalty free which is 71k rupees per ak 203 but any news on whether we are getting the ak 203 or the irrpl one media is confusing me as heck

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Oi guys so this has been bugging me so ak 203 will be royalty free which is 71k rupees per ak 203 but any news on whether we are getting the ak 203 or the irrpl one media is confusing me as heck

Media is confusing you, we get irrpl ak 203.

 

[harpreet288]

1. Trust me, that's how much knowledge you need. Ballistics is nothing more than knowing some exotic ways of multiplying mass and velocity.

2. For the sake of professionalism, please write 7.62x39mm and 7.62x51mm whenever possible. You mentioned weight of round and load carrying capacity, but AFAIK the weight difference between 5.56 NATO and 7.62x39mm is of just 5-6 grams.

3. If someone needs to debate about 7.62x39mm and 5.56x45mm then he's either a scientist of terminal ballistics or another armchair expert whose sole source of information is Wikipedia articles.
AK rounds are good only for CQC and INSAS/M4 for typical infantry type engagements, that's it.

4. Grammatical error, The rifles had a jamming issue.
Well why don't we break down each and every issue of INSAS?
1. Cheap plastic magazines crack in alpine conditions. Corrected, magazines are no more outsourced from furniture manufacturers.
2. Malfunction. Also rectified.
3. Spraying of oil in soldier's eyes. As far as my knowledge about firearms goes, it's not a technical issue. Pour oil in SIG 716s and they will start doing the same.
4. Firing full auto in 3 round burst mode. It was a serious issue. A proper 3 round burst trigger mechanism is far beyond OFB's calibre. But guess what, we simply got rid of 3R burst.
5. It looks crappy with bad ergonomics. Well so does every other Kalashnikov. And looking crappy is the USP of OFB firearms.

5. If you're not sure about recent iterations then don't you think you should first be sure about them.

6. "That is the reason army is going back to 7.62 round"
Really that's the reason? I'm interested now, please elaborate.
Coz I thought we were inducting AKs and M43s for the sole purpose of pleasing the Ruskies.

Good elaborate answer.
But on the round the 5.56 was a dud for our forces as even after being hit the terrorist kept fighting,this is where the ak round comes in and kills the threat.

That's the reason we r going for the ak, another is were r solving the IPR problem,which arose through we making copies of ak"Ghatak &TAR"...

 

[Marliii]

Good elaborate answer.
But on the round the 5.56 was a dud for our forces as even after being hit the terrorist kept fighting,this is where the ak round comes in and kills the threat.

That's the reason we r going for the ak, another is were r solving the IPR problem,which arose through we making copies of ak"Ghatak &TAR"...

5.56 wasn't a dud as everyone says it to be.indian military used it to win kargil and most of 2010s it was used to kill pork chops.the problem was that 5.56 came to the indian army with the Insas.US fought Vietnam ,panama,gulf war,invasion of Afghanistan and iraq with the 5.56 they didn't had any problems army balmed the insas but blaming insas for all fiasco will mean indirectly blaming our idiotic OFB so the blame fell for poor 5.56.there were even people saying that 5.56 was designed as not to kill people!!!! Seriously WTF no body designs a round that will not kill people.and on the case of terrorists keep fighting even after hit by 5.56 there are even cases of our own soldiers fighting even after getting multiple 7.62 x39 rounds.in ww2 multiple times soldiers of combatants kept fighting even after getting shot from battle rifle calibre rounds.it all depends on where the hit takes place and if the person has the right amount of determination and adrenaline

 

[Sir pe tapla]

5.56 wasn't a dud as everyone says it to be.indian military used it to win kargil and most of 2010s it was used to kill pork chops.the problem was that 5.56 came to the indian army with the Insas.US fought Vietnam ,panama,gulf war,invasion of Afghanistan and iraq with the 5.56 they didn't had any problems army balmed the insas but blaming insas for all fiasco will mean indirectly blaming our idiotic OFB so the blame fell for poor 5.56.there were even people saying that 5.56 was designed as not to kill people!!!! Seriously WTF no body designs a round that will not kill people.and on the case of terrorists keep fighting even after hit by 5.56 there are even cases of our own soldiers fighting even after getting multiple 7.62 x39 rounds.in ww2 multiple times soldiers of combatants kept fighting even after getting shot from battle rifle calibre rounds.it all depends on where the hit takes place and if the person has the right amount of determination and adrenaline

There was this belief that 5.56 was designed to injure a soldier not outright kill him so that 3 more soldiers are taken out of the fight trying to help the injured soldier. After reading black hawk down, I could see why. But I don't know if that belief was just some random BS or how true it really is.

 

[Tactical Doge]

There was this belief that 5.56 was designed to injure a soldier not outright kill him so that 3 more soldiers are taken out of the fight trying to help the injured soldier. After reading black hawk down, I could see why. But I don't know if that belief was just some random BS or how true it really is.

It is absurd but it is a common urban legend and continues to persist in the military right alongside the myth that it’s illegal to shoot a person with a .50 cal.

First of all, you are right, the objective was to allow soldiers to carry more ammo and also to make full-auto rifles more controllable.

, the 5.56 has comparable lethality to a 7.62 at closer ranges. It’s only when you start getting to the limits of the effective range of the 5.56 that you see a real difference at probably 300-400 metres,



The myth is based on the idea that one hurt soldier actually take 3–5 soldiers out of the fight.

>A hurt soldier can continue to fight back, potentially inflicting more casualties on your side.

>People claim that injuries are more detrimental to morale. Bullshit. Body bags and coffins are detrimental to morale. You can visit your buddy that was wounded and see him getting on with his life. Many wounded soldiers are returned to duty, which can actually boost morale.

>The idea that they stop what they’re doing to evacuate the casualty is based on wishful thinking. That isn’t the way the army fights and I’m not aware of any of our enemies that have fought this way. At most, a casualty gets pulled behind cover and someone slaps a tourniquet on, then it’s back to shooting. By the time someone is actually being evacuated from the battlefield, the firefight is typically over and it doesn’t make a difference at that point if they are using 4 people to carry him.
Wounding a casualty is just fine when you’re talking about something like a landmine. A mine can blow someone’s foot off with minimal explosives, which tends to be an incapacitating event. Anything more just wastes explosives, makes it harder to emplace, and makes it easier to detect. But trying to apply that same logic to bullets is just stupid.

 

[Sir pe tapla]

It is absurd but it is a common urban legend and continues to persist in the military right alongside the myth that it’s illegal to shoot a person with a .50 cal.

First of all, you are right, the objective was to allow soldiers to carry more ammo and also to make full-auto rifles more controllable.

, the 5.56 has comparable lethality to a 7.62 at closer ranges. It’s only when you start getting to the limits of the effective range of the 5.56 that you see a real difference at probably 300-400 metres,



The myth is based on the idea that one hurt soldier actually take 3–5 soldiers out of the fight.

>A hurt soldier can continue to fight back, potentially inflicting more casualties on your side.

>People claim that injuries are more detrimental to morale. Bullshit. Body bags and coffins are detrimental to morale. You can visit your buddy that was wounded and see him getting on with his life. Many wounded soldiers are returned to duty, which can actually boost morale.

>The idea that they stop what they’re doing to evacuate the casualty is based on wishful thinking. That isn’t the way the US military fights and I’m not aware of any of our enemies that have fought this way. At most, a casualty gets pulled behind cover and someone slaps a tourniquet on, then it’s back to shooting. By the time someone is actually being evacuated from the battlefield, the firefight is typically over and it doesn’t make a difference at that point if they are using 4 people to carry him.
Wounding a casualty is just fine when you’re talking about something like a landmine. A mine can blow someone’s foot off with minimal explosives, which tends to be an incapacitating event. Anything more just wastes explosives, makes it harder to emplace, and makes it easier to detect. But trying to apply that same logic to bullets is just stupid.

Yes I thought it is most probably a myth.

About the casualty thing, if you read black hawk down you will observe how difficult it was for the rescue convoy to move because they had to stop each time one of their soldier got injured.

It might be true if one of their soldier died too though so there is that. I don't know .

 

[Lonewarrior]

Good elaborate answer.
But on the round the 5.56 was a dud for our forces as even after being hit the terrorist kept fighting,this is where the ak round comes in and kills the threat.

That's the reason we r going for the ak, another is were r solving the IPR problem,which arose through we making copies of ak"Ghatak &TAR"...

Indeed 7.62x39mm is excellent in neutralising threats at closer ranges.
That's why it's the go to caliber of Rashtriya Rifles.
But giving it to more than half the soldiers saying they are "non-front line troops"!!
So are we planning to limit that big of a force to only counter insurgency?


And IPR of a thing designed in 1946!?
Nice

 

[harpreet288]

Indeed 7.62x39mm is excellent in neutralising threats at closer ranges.
That's why it's the go to caliber of Rashtriya Rifles.
But giving it to more than half the soldiers saying they are "non-front line troops"!!
So are we planning to limit that big of a force to only counter insurgency?


And IPR of a thing designed in 1946!?
Nice

Well Gen Mikhail Kalashnikov caught us if guard when he saw our own made ak in one of our exhibition...
So the problem of IPR is there,&we have to solve it,we can't annoy the Russians can we..?