INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[Killbot]

Wut about the factory at Amethi for this production. This may be more like carrots and sticks.

Hasn't done jackshit since 2010.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Wut about the factory at Amethi for this production. This may be more like carrots and sticks.

The amethi factory is established in December 2007 under UPA. There was no need of that factory as RFI, OFT Krichy and SAF kanpur was enough. However, it was more of a political decision, since Amethi was the constituency of rahul gandhi. Now, the 2019 decison to manufacture ak203 there, I think was a political gimmick by bjp. It worked since bjp's smithi irani won the constituency by defeating rahul gandhi.

 

[samsaptaka]

I really hope AK203 is cancelled and KMKB is done !
But I thought AK203 was not a carbine deal right, its a full on assault rifle, so its replacement
should also be an assault rifle should it not ? Maybe more SiGs ?

 

[Johny_Baba]

BTW, is the top cover stable enough to mount optics on AK 103M that IA is getting? @Johny_Baba

I know Kalashnikov Concern claimed that it was stable, but...

Well top railed cover on AK,
i can write in detail how it came to existence on russian AKs but maybe someday later (for now some search terms - AK-103-3, AK-200,AK-400) for you know,give a better detailed explanation on pros-cons etc...

As of now i'd say it's made into 'acceptable jugaad' on standard kalashnikovs to mount basic reddot or holographic optical sight that way,not maybe for long range engagements using scopes above 4x,i think.

i personally don't find it a good solution because no matter how much well made it is after some disassembly-reassembly operatios you gonna observe looseness of fitting and maybe shift in zero as well. This is bad when we do a lot of "kholna-jodna" of weapons here.Only thing on AK-203 that is kinda pacifying is iron sights aren't mounted on top dust cover rather it's on its default position on iron sights base in middle of the gun so soldiers who aren't given optical sights and are supposed to rely on iron sights alone may not find it problematic - then again what's point of buying a firearm with rails on top if you aren't gonna issue optical sights.

 

[Johny_Baba]

Bhai mujhe pehle se hi patahay.....
Ye hona hi thaa....govt is dragging it's feet means ...some indigenous system is in advance stage of trials.......bdw which gun is gonna replace...ofb gun ...ya sss defence gun

Sadly no desi maal,
if my "सूत्रो" are correct then it'll be some रेगिस्तानी rifle, designed and developed by a german engineer.

 

[Cruise missile]

Sadly no desi maal,
if my "सूत्रो" are correct then it'll be some रेगिस्तानी rifle, designed and developed by a german engineer.

Caracal.

 

[Johny_Baba]

Wut about the factory at Amethi for this production. This may be more like carrots and sticks.

Amethi Faketory was inception of political promises made by previous and current government, a carrot-and-stick thing at its best to prajaa of Amethi.

Now as long as prajaa gets their promised carrots, does it matter if some russian rifle is made there or some रेगिस्तानी is made ?

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Sadly no desi maal,
if my "सूत्रो" are correct then it'll be some रेगिस्तानी rifle, designed and developed by a german engineer.

Mean g 3 by pof , oh yeah .
Porki rifle lol

 

[SUPERPOWER]

Now that CAR-816 deal is cancelled, so instead of ordering JVPC which will be underpowered for carbine role, or any other carbine for that matter, a very good option will be:

Apparently, this is a bullpup configuration of INSAS. It is a re-engineered version of an existing INSAS rifle into bullpup configuration. Externally, looks similar to SA-80 rifle. This is done by a young major in Army Infantry school and CME, Pune. Looks compact and apparently, it has cleared initial trial with flying colors. Though it may need further refining.

Sine army has already decided to replace INSAS by Sig 716, this way we can save a lot of money, since it will be a weapon conversion, not a new weapon. Apparently, army is guiding the project. Another plus point is the 5.56*45 mm INSAS round, which has high penetration power, which army has millions in stockpile. Further due to the use of Tavors in army and CRPF for a long time, bullpup configuration will not be a major issue.

I think this super...if we can convert all our insas into bullpups sure it will save our lots of money...Major saab has done a excellent job...such innovators should be made to Head OFB....

 

[MisraZ]

Sadly no desi maal,
if my "सूत्रो" are correct then it'll be some रेगिस्तानी rifle, designed and developed by a german engineer.

Seedha CAR816 hi boldete babaji

 

[Tridev123]

Sadly no desi maal,
if my "सूत्रो" are correct then it'll be some रेगिस्तानी rifle, designed and developed by a german engineer.

Bit puzzling.
How can the Caracal carbine version which was down selected for the FTP buy replace the AK-203.
We will be replacing the 7.62 * 39 round with the 5.56 * 45 round. The Army preferred the 7.62 * 39 bullet because of their greater stopping power vis-a-vis the 5.56 * 45 round. Especially for counter insurgency and counter terrorism operations. Not wise to junk the 7.62.

Are we then looking at the Assault rifle version of the Caracal as replacement for the AK-203.A 7.62 mm Caracal rifle replacing the 7.62 mm AK.

Lot of rumours floating around.Difficult to pick out the truth.
What exactly is the choice of the Army.

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Bit puzzling.
How can the Caracal carbine version which was down selected for the FTP buy replace the AK-203.
We will be replacing the 7.62 * 39 round with the 5.56 * 45 round. The Army preferred the 7.62 * 39 bullet because of their greater stopping power vis-a-vis the 5.56 * 45 round. Especially for counter insurgency and counter terrorism operations. Not wise to junk the 7.62.

Are we then looking at the Assault rifle version of the Caracal as replacement for the AK-203.A 7.62 mm Caracal rifle replacing the 7.62 mm AK.

Lot of rumours floating around.Difficult to pick out the truth.
What exactly is the choice of the Army.

No body knows , you know sirji our sena is like prashasti of samudragupt .
Kavi hrisena said about maharaj adhiraj in his mandsaur inscription or prayag raj inscription that " it's impossible to understand his mind , what he thinks nobody can predict , his mind is incomprehensible ".
Bhartiya sena is same .

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Other than political factors, I think there is a re-thinking going on in the army regarding the small arms requirement. Hence the delay in finalizing 6.5 lac AK203 deal.

The RR has around 67k troops, while the AR has around 65K troops. Both are tasked with counter insurgency. So, in total there are 132K troops engaged in counter insurgency in Kashmir and North east. The are the troops which require AK style rifles chambered in 7.62*39 mm. So the net requirement of AK style rifles is not more than 1.32K.

In addition there are around 380 infantry battalions, with some more raised for Mountain Strike Corps. They are deployed against pakis and chinks. If we consider around 1000 troops each, there there is a requirement of around 4 lakh 7.62*51 mm rifles. Among them around 1.32 lacs will be Sigs. The rest around 2.7 lac will be from domestic source.

Total strength is around 1.23 lacs. So, the rest of the army requires carbines, which will be 5.56*45 caliber. Now this non-infantry branches have some overlap with RR and AR battalions. Still this requirement is more than 8 lac+, a bulk of which will be sourced from domestic vendors now that FTP deal of caracal is cancelled.

 

[Johny_Baba]

Bit puzzling.
How can the Caracal carbine version which was down selected for the FTP buy replace the AK-203.
We will be replacing the 7.62 * 39 round with the 5.56 * 45 round. The Army preferred the 7.62 * 39 bullet because of their greater stopping power vis-a-vis the 5.56 * 45 round. Especially for counter insurgency and counter terrorism operations. Not wise to junk the 7.62.

Are we then looking at the Assault rifle version of the Caracal as replacement for the AK-203.A 7.62 mm Caracal rifle replacing the 7.62 mm AK.

Lot of rumours floating around.Difficult to pick out the truth.
What exactly is the choice of the Army.

Answer lies again in Amethi Faketory ( = carrot-and-stick to prajaa there) and recent visit of Gaimu Daijin Jaishankar to the UAE.

BTW these are rumours from a trusted source and things move A LOT FASTER when it comes to politically motivated deals so don't be surprised if it doesn't happen.

For e.g. in past i was given info that Tavor-7 was going to be winner of 7.62 NATO tender then *something something* happened and a rifle that was nowhere to be heard-seen during trials etc was emerged as winner i.e. SIG716 (that too first G2 variant with short stroke gas piston system which was later switched to DI variant with SIG716i TREAD model).

 

[Tridev123]

Too many lobbies pulling in different directions.
Ultimately merit will suffer.
Hope the Army takes a principled stand based on actual operational requirements.

 

[Yogendra Rana]

Well top railed cover on AK,
i can write in detail how it came to existence on russian AKs but maybe someday later (for now some search terms - AK-103-3, AK-200,AK-400) for you know,give a better detailed explanation on pros-cons etc...

As of now i'd say it's made into 'acceptable jugaad' on standard kalashnikovs to mount basic reddot or holographic optical sight that way,not maybe for long range engagements using scopes above 4x,i think.

i personally don't find it a good solution because no matter how much well made it is after some disassembly-reassembly operatios you gonna observe looseness of fitting and maybe shift in zero as well. This is bad when we do a lot of "kholna-jodna" of weapons here.Only thing on AK-203 that is kinda pacifying is iron sights aren't mounted on top dust cover rather it's on its default position on iron sights base in middle of the gun so soldiers who aren't given optical sights and are supposed to rely on iron sights alone may not find it problematic - then again what's point of buying a firearm with rails on top if you aren't gonna issue optical sights.

There is a perfect solution of top cover with picatinny rails in Ak series weapons...Check FAB Defense Web Site for PDC dust cover for AK

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

If Tavors were to be selected in FTp, they were meant to be manufactured in PLR small arms assembly plant.
Similarly, caracal is also planning to tie-up with local players like mku to offer the car-816, even after the deal is formally cancelled.

Now thatwe have purchased 1.44 lac sig716 completely off the shelf from USA. Considering the time INSas was in service, these Sigs will be in service for atleast 20-25 years. I wonder, who will service these weapons and provide spare parts for this long service life?

 

[another_armchair]

Have we started receiving Negev LMG's?

Contract was signed for 16,479 LMGs at a cost of Rs 880 crore in March 2020.

 

[Killbot]

Have we started receiving Negev LMG's?

Contract was signed for 16,479 LMGs at a cost of Rs 880 crore in March 2020.

2021.

 

[FalconSlayers]

If Tavors were to be selected in FTp, they were meant to be manufactured in PLR small arms assembly plant.
Similarly, caracal is also planning to tie-up with local players like mku to offer the car-816, even after the deal is formally cancelled.

Now thatwe have purchased 1.44 lac sig716 completely off the shelf from USA. Considering the time INSas was in service, these Sigs will be in service for atleast 20-25 years. I wonder, who will service these weapons and provide spare parts for this long service life?

OFB.