INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[Gessler]

How does JVPC compare to;

- BT MP9

If you going with JVPC its for a different set of reasons than MP9. Obviously you want the extra penetration & stopping power that 9x19 cannot give. So MP9 is a different class of weapon.

- Amogh

It's the calibre that really matters so they're both broadly similar in terms of effect. Amogh has a traditional rifle pattern with the magazine in front of trigger while JVPC goes the Uzi/MAC way by putting the mag in the pistol grip. I'm not familiar with Amogh's gas system so I'll reserve comment on that.

But honestly I've no idea why they're pursuing JVPC/Amogh anymore. Focus should have moved to this -

If penetration & stopping power within a small(er) form factor is the requirement, then 5.56x30 is a waste of time compared to 5.56x45 so long as you can get it working in a small package.

One of the problems with OFB 5.56x45 Ball is that its a slow-burning cartridge (even more than its NATO counterpart), it requires a long barrel to attain its optimum velocity so I'm waiting to see how well they can make it work on a short-barrel carbine without negatively affecting accuracy & range to a great degree as a result of inconsistent muzzle velocity.

If it doesn't work, then any good AR-15 w/ 10-13" barrel manufactured locally (CAR-816 by MKU Kanpur or IWI ARAD by PLRS Gwalior) is the best bet.

As of 5.56x45 vs 5.56x30 I've a post previously which I think would be relevant -

Small arms of India

Already addressed this in my original post. INSAS has been in mass production for what, 20 years now? This argument just doesn't stand. Do you think OFB is intentionally marking up the price of INSAS? They are a monopoly in the space after all. I know they're not supposed to operate for profit...

defenceforumindia.com

 

[ManhattanProject]

Design sucks.

design does not suck, the furniture does.
Go look at its disassembly video, the internals are amazingly simple.

 

[ManhattanProject]

Its only direct competitors are the HK MP7 and FN P90. Compare with those and then arrive at a conclusion..

HK MP7:
View attachment 70061

FN P90:
View attachment 70062

DRDO/OFB JVPC:
View attachment 70064

This new version appears to have fixed a few of the ergonomics problems, but bolt catch and release is a must for any PDW. And shorten the damn barrel, for fuck's sake. And moving the charging handle a little further back isn't rocket science.

bolt catch isnt must for a pdw, if the army wanted a bolt catch the weapon would have had it already.
the charging handle is in a much better position than the hk mp7.
The rails and furniture does leave alot to be desired, i will give you that.

 

[Cruise missile]

 

[Killbot]

How does JVPC compare to;

- BT MP9
- Amogh

@Johny_Baba @Gessler

MP9 is completely different from JVPC in terms of role. It is much smaller (hence easy to conceal), lighter (owing to the use of polymer for the frame ot is only 1.3kg. Most steel frame handguns are heavier.), and uses the 9mm cartridge, in this (Indian Army's) case, subsonic 9mm. It is meant for stealth. It uses the rotating barrel action like the Beretta Px4 Storm, which makes the recoil very controllable and comfortable to shoot. And it has rails and very good ergonomics. It is one of the best SMGs out there. Effective range will be inside of 50m with subsonic ammo.

Amogh is just an INSAS (which is in turn an AK) in 5.56x30mm. Long stroke gas piston, 2.8kg weight, 13" barrel. Effective range 150-200m.

JVPC is pretty big, 12" barrel and all. It uses the long stroke gas piston, so it is also similar to the AK. This makes it heavy (3kg). It will have a very sharp recoil impulse (which will probably be mitigated by the 12" barrel, as it increases 'dwell time' of the bullet and the 5.56*30mm bullet itself), and a lot of muzzle flash. And it will be loud. But very reliable and simple to disassemble and clean. The ergonomics on the new version are decent, but could be so much better. An AR-15 or ACE style charging handle, bolt catch, bolt release and handguard rails on 3, 6, 9 and 12'o'clock positions would go a long way in ease of use. Its effective range would be inside of 150m. And a much shorter barrel is fine. Maybe 8". Then the range will be about 100m, which is enough imo. If the army was involved in the design, it may have turned out to be a better product.

 

[Killbot]

design does not suck, the furniture does.
Go look at its disassembly video, the internals are amazingly simple.

Simple =/= good.

bolt catch isnt must for a pdw, if the army wanted a bolt catch the weapon would have had it already.
the charging handle is in a much better position than the hk mp7.
The rails and furniture does leave alot to be desired, i will give you that.

Bolt catch would make it much easier to use. And faster, which is the essence of a PDW.

 

[Killbot]

If you going with JVPC its for a different set of reasons than MP9. Obviously you want the extra penetration & stopping power that 9x19 cannot give. So MP9 is a different class of weapon.



It's the calibre that really matters so they're both broadly similar in terms of effect. Amogh has a traditional rifle pattern with the magazine in front of trigger while JVPC goes the Uzi/MAC way by putting the mag in the pistol grip. I'm not familiar with Amogh's gas system so I'll reserve comment on that.

But honestly I've no idea why they're pursuing JVPC/Amogh anymore. Focus should have moved to this -

View attachment 70265

If penetration & stopping power within a small(er) form factor is the requirement, then 5.56x30 is a waste of time compared to 5.56x45 so long as you can get it working in a small package.

One of the problems with OFB 5.56x45 Ball is that its a slow-burning cartridge (even more than its NATO counterpart), it requires a long barrel to attain its optimum velocity so I'm waiting to see how well they can make it work on a short-barrel carbine without negatively affecting accuracy & range to a great degree as a result of inconsistent muzzle velocity.

If it doesn't work, then any good AR-15 w/ 10-13" barrel manufactured locally (CAR-816 by MKU Kanpur or IWI ARAD by PLRS Gwalior) is the best bet.

As of 5.56x45 vs 5.56x30 I've a post previously which I think would be relevant -

Small arms of India

Already addressed this in my original post. INSAS has been in mass production for what, 20 years now? This argument just doesn't stand. Do you think OFB is intentionally marking up the price of INSAS? They are a monopoly in the space after all. I know they're not supposed to operate for profit...

defenceforumindia.com

What is the grain weight of the OFB 5.56x45 INSAS? And why can't they just produce something like the M855 or even M193?

 

[Gessler]

What is the grain weight of the OFB 5.56x45 INSAS? And why can't they just produce something like the M855 or even M193?

I'm not aware, don't think it was ever publicized. If someone has the info please post.

It's one of the reasons I was a bit excited when I heard sellers in the US were looking to import ammo from OFB, it would be a good opportunity to get some public info about the rounds & their performance vs contemporary 5.56 ball. Provided someone actually buys & reviews them.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

The story goes like this:

The army wanted a carbine variant of the Insas family in early 2000 after induction of its rifle version. They issued a GSQR in most probably 2002. Now, the intended role was to have a smaller barrel than the INSAS battle rifle (barrel length 18.3'), be more compact in size and have an effective range of 200m.

Now interesting think is that till then (and till now also), the army, especially the RR battalions in Kashmir was using AK in carbine, both for short range engagements in semi-urban settings, forested areas and for built up areas (BUA) as well as for room intervention. Now, the AK was deadly in semi-urban as well as forested areas short range engagements. But due to its bulky nature it was difficult to maneuver it in BUA and room intervention. Hence the requirement arose for a compact carbine, which will be deadly against the terrorist and will have high penetration effects against some steel based BPJ, which some terrorists were also using. Now the only carbine that Army had was 9mm Sterling which wasww2 vintage. It had limited range, limited penetration power(due to its round), it had accidental firing discharge if not handled carefully and it had accuracy problem. So it was only an reserve weapon, very rarely saw any frontline action since 1990 (start of Kashmir insurgency).

So, DRDO was tasked with it making a rifle based on GSQR 2002. Now since the original Insas 5.56 round was different than standard NATO round and had a better penetrating power (with a lower velocity), it quickly ran to a hardle. The problem encountered was that of stability of the round in a shorter barrel than INSAS. So DRDO decided it will develop a 5.56*30 mm round which was similar to a Colt experimental round (MARS) that was never adopted. So based on this round DRDO developed to different carbines Amogh and Milaap, both very very similar to Insas itself, however Milap had a semi-bullpup arrangement like Uzi. Early Trials ran through the better part of the decade in 2000, however both the guns failed to meet army expectations. However it emerged that Millap fared better than Amogh. So in 2010 onwards, SAF Kanpur and ARDE formed a JV to refine this rifle design which was known as MSMC and finally as JVPC. After refining it also failed to meet army expectation in 2012-13 trials and again went to drawing board.
Finally around 2016-2017, the final version came out and OFB began to offer it to CAPF nd state police. It is this version that emerged in Sandip Unnithan video. However, the Army was just not interested.

Now fed up with this carbine drama the Army called a FTP tender in January 2018 and Car816 was selected. However, the deal ran into legal trouble as both Thales and S&T motives moved to SC against declaring Caracal as L1 bidder.

The deal was cancelled eventually in 2019 and OFB jumped at this god given opportunity and fielded the JVPC gain to the Army. This time rifle cleared the trials.

So now the final product of JVPC lies in between a carbine and a PDW. It depends on the Army whether it adopts it or not and what role it is assigned if adopted.

PS: Another interesting thing is OFB has solved the INSAS round stability issue and developed another CQB based on Sig 550 series design.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

What is the grain weight of the OFB 5.56x45 INSAS? And why can't they just produce something like the M855 or even M193?

INSAS uses 64 grain 5.56mm FMJ from a 18.3 inch with 1 in 7.8 inch rifle twist Heavy Barrel which has a projectile speed of 3050 FPS which is hell lethal in close ranges to penetrate Level-IV BPJs at 200 metres.
In fact many BPJs from private companies were not able to meet the requirement in comparitive trials due to the inability of stopping the INSAS round.

 

[aditya g]

I believe the "fountain" of all carbine requirements in India is the replacement of the Sterling 9x19mm. All remarks I have seen of the weapon are generally positive in terms of its ease and simplicity. Obviously the weapon is outdated and needs to be replaced.

Problem is that everybody accepts thi,s but what are your requirements for the new weapon? Aside from the firearm itself I imagine there are other requirements like commonality of ammunition with 9mm etc.

I think this explains the variety of weapons in this broad category that were acquired by various arms;

- BT MP9 9x19mm
- Baretta MX4 9x19mm
- Uzi 9x19mm
- Micro Uzi
- Amogh 5.56x30mm

I wonder if there a firearm and ammunition combination that meets all requirements?

Ghataks for CQB,
SF,
Paratroopers (compact weapon for air drop),
tankmen,
Army machine gunners,
Army section commander.
Navy SF and ICG VBSS

Then there is an enormous requirement in law enforcement circles. I find it totally inexcusable to see regular cops armed with AKs or INSAS. These guys are better off with handguns or a 9x19mm carbine.

Amidst the chaos and uncertainity of small arms only the AK pattern rifle stands untouched in India

@shuvo@y2k10
.....

Now interesting think is that till then (and till now also), the army, especially the RR battalions in Kashmir was using AK in carbine, both for short range engagements in semi-urban settings, forested areas and for built up areas (BUA) as well as for room intervention. Now, the AK was deadly in semi-urban as well as forested areas short range engagements. But due to its bulky nature it was difficult to maneuver it in BUA and room intervention. Hence the requirement arose for a compact carbine, which will be deadly against the terrorist and will have high penetration effects against some steel based BPJ, which some terrorists were also using. ......



@Gessler
....

But honestly I've no idea why they're pursuing JVPC/Amogh anymore. .....

 

[Killbot]

INSAS uses 64 grain 5.56mm FMJ from a 18.3 inch with 1 in 7.8 inch rifle twist Heavy Barrel which has a projectile speed of 3050 FPS which is hell lethal in close ranges to penetrate Level-IV BPJs at 200 metres.
In fact many BPJs from private companies were not able to meet the requirement in comparitive trials due to the inability of stopping the INSAS round.

Yeah, 5.56 can't do shit to level IV armour at 1 metre. Level IV can withstand M80A1 7.62 NATO rounds point blank. An armor piercing full power cartridge. I think you mean level IIIA. Because even level 3 can withstand 62 grain 5.56 at any range.

 

[Killbot]

I believe the "fountain" of all carbine requirements in India is the replacement of the Sterling 9x19mm. All remarks I have seen of the weapon are generally positive in terms of its ease and simplicity. Obviously the weapon is outdated and needs to be replaced.

Problem is that everybody accepts thi,s but what are your requirements for the new weapon? Aside from the firearm itself I imagine there are other requirements like commonality of ammunition with 9mm etc.

I think this explains the variety of weapons in this broad category that were acquired by various arms;

- BT MP9 9x19mm
- Baretta MX4 9x19mm
- Uzi 9x19mm
- Micro Uzi
- Amogh 5.56x30mm

I wonder if there a firearm and ammunition combination that meets all requirements?

Ghataks for CQB,
SF,
Paratroopers (compact weapon for air drop),
tankmen,
Army machine gunners,
Army section commander.
Navy SF and ICG VBSS

Then there is an enormous requirement in law enforcement circles. I find it totally inexcusable to see regular cops armed with AKs or INSAS. These guys are better off with handguns or a 9x19mm carbine.

Amidst the chaos and uncertainity of small arms only the AK pattern rifle stands untouched in India

@shuvo@y2k10
.....

Now interesting think is that till then (and till now also), the army, especially the RR battalions in Kashmir was using AK in carbine, both for short range engagements in semi-urban settings, forested areas and for built up areas (BUA) as well as for room intervention. Now, the AK was deadly in semi-urban as well as forested areas short range engagements. But due to its bulky nature it was difficult to maneuver it in BUA and room intervention. Hence the requirement arose for a compact carbine, which will be deadly against the terrorist and will have high penetration effects against some steel based BPJ, which some terrorists were also using. ......



@Gessler
....

But honestly I've no idea why they're pursuing JVPC/Amogh anymore. .....

In my opinion, the 3.5 lakh 5.56 NATO carbine tender will move forward next year and the winner of that competition will replace the Sterling. JVPC completing user trials only validates the system, does not mean that it will be ordered. I think that the Car 816 will be the lowest bidder. Then we will have two AR pattern system and one AK system as the service weapon in the army. A clusterfuck, but better than a bullpup, an AR 10 and an AK.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Yeah, 5.56 can't do shit to level IV armour at 1 metre. Level IV can withstand M80A1 7.62 NATO rounds point blank. An armor piercing full power cartridge. I think you mean level IIIA. Because even level 3 can withstand 62 grain 5.56 at any range.

I thought so to. But here is the opinion from someone who have tested it against various BPJ helmets and vehicle.


Also please read his entire twitter thread for clarity on the context.

 

[another_armchair]

In my opinion, the 3.5 lakh 5.56 NATO carbine tender will move forward next year and the winner of that competition will replace the Sterling. JVPC completing user trials only validates the system, does not mean that it will be ordered. I think that the Car 816 will be the lowest bidder. Then we will have two AR pattern system and one AK system as the service weapon in the army. A clusterfuck, but better than a bullpup, an AR 10 and an AK.

IA doesn't operate 5.56*30. Why add to their logistics nightmare.
Better get a good 5.56*45 carbine and get this drama over and done with.

 

[Killbot]

I thought so to. But here is the opinion from someone who have tested it against various BPJ helmets and vehicle.


Also please read his entire twitter thread for clarity on the context.

I have. I even interacted with him on it. AK ammo of a certain grain weight (123 gr to 130 gr) with an armor piercing rod (so called 'core') falls in between NIJ Level 3 and 4. Hence the level III+. It isn't recognized by NIJ, but that is what IA is getting with SMPP Boron Carbide HAPs.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Nice presentaion and specification of INSAS LMG.

 

[ManhattanProject]

Simple =/= good.

Bolt catch would make it much easier to use. And faster, which is the essence of a PDW.

if you know anything about firearms, simple is good.

 

[ManhattanProject]

Simple =/= good.

Bolt catch would make it much easier to use. And faster, which is the essence of a PDW.

No you carry a PDW loaded with safety on, you dont carry it with bolt locked to the rear.
A bolt hold open does not give a large enough technical advantage in battle, i understand its useful for spec ops guys but for rear echelon troops it just adds to the complexity and training. A bold hold also lets dirt and debree enter the system.

 

[Johny_Baba]

"Sutro" se yeh suna hain ki AK-203 deal kmkb hone wala hain