INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[Chinmoy]

You didn't get the point which I was highlighting. Canceling of Carbine FTP is NO Blessing in Disguise !!
It would protract the Sterling replacement for too long if the tender is scrapped now given the new tender floated for carbine procurement under MII hasn't reached RFP stage yet. IMO,This FTP could act as stop-gap measure till the domestic ones (it could be Galil, or even CAR 816) begin to manufacture.
I hope better sense will prevail and decision makers won't make joke of the FTP tender by dragging the deal for so long. In fact, it's relatively more honest to scrap the tender altogether supported by valid reasons rather than protracting the deal hence mocking the so called "Fast Track" procurement.

There is something called emergency procurement. 90k odd carbines could be procured under it. Anyway even the CARACAL was going the same way.
So yeah it would be another gem on our crown of screwed up defence procurement. But none the less, it's a boon in disguise for in house manufacturing. Anyway it's coming under negative list in 21 I believe.

BTW here is PLR/ACE systems for members.

 

[piKacHHu]

There is something called emergency procurement. 90k odd carbines could be procured under it. Anyway even the CARACAL was going the same way.
So yeah it would be another gem on our crown of screwed up defence procurement. But none the less, it's a boon in disguise for in house manufacturing. Anyway it's coming under negative list in 21 I believe.

View attachment 59224

BTW here is PLR/ACE systems for members.

Just want to correct you on Emergency procurement part. The current limit for emergency procurement is 300 Crores INR to Army. With that you can procure far less than what you quoted I.e. 90K carbines assuming price-tag of $1200 a piece (approx price quoted for CAR 816). And that was for Off the Shelf purchase. Do note that the IWI had quoted higher than CARACAL for FTP in which there was no mention of domestic production of Galil under IWI-PLR JV. So, for local production of GaLil, the price could be higher given the addition of license fee/royalty for JV. Moreover, Emergency procurement will also involve bidding process when order size goes beyond a certain threshold.

To put this matter to end, I feel that we are on same page regarding carbine replacement but differ on the way of procurement (Domestic v/s import). My position is that scrapping FTP for CAR 816 will further delay the much needed carbine induction plan. IMO, the current FTP for carbine is only path available for rapid induction of new carbines to replace the vintage & obsolete stocks just like the way we did with SIGs. Furthermore, the domestic production could be promoted through the different tender under MII for 3.5 lakhs carbine.

Army invokes emergency powers for missile deal

Set to procure systems from Israel and Russia

www.thehindu.com

“Under the latest emergency financial powers, armed forces have been given a free hand to procure equipment worth up to ₹300 crore on a priority basis. The Request For Proposal (RFP) for the two deals have been issued and negotiations are ongoing,” the source said.

Sterling Carbine in IA hands for members:
1967

Circa 2015-18

 

[Flying Dagger]

They have ARAD (AR ) and Carmel ( short stoke piston )on offer too.

ARAD can fire 5.56 NATO standard and 0.300 Black out ( competition for AK round ?) Though 0.300 is slightly more accurate with similar stopping power it will be very expensive to shift from AK rounds.

With OFB Amethi atleast we can be assured of quality AKs and will definitely make TAR improve over time.

There is something called emergency procurement. 90k odd carbines could be procured under it. Anyway even the CARACAL was going the same way.
So yeah it would be another gem on our crown of screwed up defence procurement. But none the less, it's a boon in disguise for in house manufacturing. Anyway it's coming under negative list in 21 I believe.

View attachment 59224

BTW here is PLR/ACE systems for members.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Just want to correct you on Emergency procurement part. The current limit for emergency procurement is 300 Crores INR to Army. With that you can procure far less than what you quoted I.e. 90K carbines assuming price-tag of $1200 a piece (approx price quoted for CAR 816). And that was for Off the Shelf purchase. Do note that the IWI had quoted higher than CARACAL for FTP in which there was no mention of domestic production of Galil under IWI-PLR JV. So, for local production of GaLil, the price could be higher given the addition of license fee/royalty for JV. Moreover, Emergency procurement will also involve bidding process when order size goes beyond a certain threshold.

To put this matter to end, I feel that we are on same page regarding carbine replacement but differ on the way of procurement (Domestic v/s import). My position is that scrapping FTP for CAR 816 will further delay the much needed carbine induction plan. IMO, the current FTP for carbine is only path available for rapid induction of new carbines to replace the vintage & obsolete stocks just like the way we did with SIGs. Furthermore, the domestic production could be promoted through the different tender under MII for 3.5 lakhs carbine.

Army invokes emergency powers for missile deal

Set to procure systems from Israel and Russia

www.thehindu.com

Sterling Carbine in IA hands for members:
1967
View attachment 59246

Circa 2015-18
View attachment 59247

Well you are right the limit was 300 crore but is raised to 500 crore.

And this purchase of 94000 carbines wasn't under 300/500 crore emergency purchase route but it was conveyed that it will be approved immediately as soon as we declare winner. That's what happened with Sig. They got the order immediately after they won and they have got a repeat order too.

Caracal on the other hand is stalled since other suppliers raised question that they don't have ability to provide so many rifles in a year that's why it's been stuck for 2 years.

 

[ALBY]

If domestic production of Ak203 gets started then it would be economical to make carbine versions of Ak203 instead of goimg for Sig/carcal/Iwi.Reduces the logistics nighmare.Seeing lots of Ak104 versions with Spetsnaz dont think will be that bad.

 

[JBH22]

If domestic production of Ak203 gets started then it would be economical to make carbine versions of Ak203 instead of goimg for Sig/carcal/Iwi.Reduces the logistics nighmare.Seeing lots of Ak104 versions with Spetsnaz dont think will be that bad.

In fact it makes perfect sense to have carbines and SAW based on ak203.
As usual defence planners live in lalaland

 

[ALBY]

In fact it makes perfect sense to have carbines and SAW based on ak203.
As usual defence planners live in lalaland

There is no need for Saw as Negev-7 will be more apt with its long range and hitting power.Russians too had replaced Rpk-74s and Rpks with Pkm as their Saw in late 90s though rest of the world is still holding with intermediate catridges.But for carbines going for another different platform is jot at all logical.What ever anything will do better than sterlings.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Just want to correct you on Emergency procurement part. The current limit for emergency procurement is 300 Crores INR to Army. With that you can procure far less than what you quoted I.e. 90K carbines assuming price-tag of $1200 a piece (approx price quoted for CAR 816). And that was for Off the Shelf purchase. Do note that the IWI had quoted higher than CARACAL for FTP in which there was no mention of domestic production of Galil under IWI-PLR JV. So, for local production of GaLil, the price could be higher given the addition of license fee/royalty for JV. Moreover, Emergency procurement will also involve bidding process when order size goes beyond a certain threshold.

To put this matter to end, I feel that we are on same page regarding carbine replacement but differ on the way of procurement (Domestic v/s import). My position is that scrapping FTP for CAR 816 will further delay the much needed carbine induction plan. IMO, the current FTP for carbine is only path available for rapid induction of new carbines to replace the vintage & obsolete stocks just like the way we did with SIGs. Furthermore, the domestic production could be promoted through the different tender under MII for 3.5 lakhs carbine.

Army invokes emergency powers for missile deal

Set to procure systems from Israel and Russia

www.thehindu.com

Sterling Carbine in IA hands for members:
1967
View attachment 59246

Circa 2015-18
View attachment 59247

LMAO

Spoiler

 

[piKacHHu]

There is no need for Saw as Negev-7 will be more apt with its long range and hitting power.Russians too had replaced Rpk-74s and Rpks with Pkm as their Saw in late 90s though rest of the world is still holding with intermediate catridges.But for carbines going for another different platform is jot at all logical.What ever anything will do better than sterlings.

I am not sure about performance of 7.62x39 round in short barrel AK 203 (Recoil, Lower muzzle velocity ??). Any idea about performance of SBR galil chambered with AK round ?
There is a known AK based short barreled carbine i.e. AK-74U but its chambered with Soviet 5.56x39 round. It would be interesting to see whether K-C would pitch AK-203 SBR in 7.62x39 or 5.45x45 NATO.
I would prefer AR based CAR 816 or ARAD for carbine given the arrival of SIGs in IA; preferably with SSP/gas regulator which would be handy for putting suppressors and other SOPMOD accessories.

 

[piKacHHu]

There is something called emergency procurement. 90k odd carbines could be procured under it. Anyway even the CARACAL was going the same way.
So yeah it would be another gem on our crown of screwed up defence procurement. But none the less, it's a boon in disguise for in house manufacturing. Anyway it's coming under negative list in 21 I believe.

View attachment 59224

BTW here is PLR/ACE systems for members.

Seems your prediction is turning out to be True... !! Congratulations ...

Govt plans to scrap 2 defence deals under foreign procurement, could go ‘atma nirbhar’ way

The projects for procuring carbines and self-propelled air defence system had been in the works for long, but were stuck due to price & technical requirements, among others.

theprint.in

The carbines are meant to replace the outdated and ageing 9 mm British Sterling 1A1 sub-machine guns that are currently in service.

The Army had in 2017 decided to opt for Fast Track Procurement (FTP) of 93,895 new carbines against an overall demand of 3.5 lakh such weapons.

Sources now indicated that the FTP numbers could actually be added to the overall demand and a tender could be issued next year.

Efforts to acquire the CQB carbines since 2008 have not materialised as the carbines of state-owned DRDO and Ordnance Factory Board had failed to meet the Army requirements.

 

[ManhattanProject]

I am not sure about performance of 7.62x39 round in short barrel AK 203 (Recoil, Lower muzzle velocity ??). Any idea about performance of SBR galil chambered with AK round ?
There is a known AK based short barreled carbine i.e. AK-74U but its chambered with Soviet 5.56x39 round. It would be interesting to see whether K-C would pitch AK-203 SBR in 7.62x39 or 5.45x45 NATO.
I would prefer AR based CAR 816 or ARAD for carbine given the arrival of SIGs in IA; preferably with SSP/gas regulator which would be handy for putting suppressors and other SOPMOD accessories.

heavier projectiles perform better in short barrels, the 7.62x39 will perform better than 5.56, in short barrels.

 

[Lancer]

So does India actually have any locally made world class quality carbine, now that they've gone and scrapped the tender?

What's the plan?

 

[ManhattanProject]

So does India actually have any locally made world class quality carbine, now that they've gone and scrapped the tender?

What's the plan?

PLR systems are making tavors in india, there is SSS defence, but their design hasnt been tested. There was another company showcasing in defence expo this year, cant remember the name. There is a ofb made carbine too.

 

[Lancer]

PLR systems are making tavors in india, there is SSS defence, but their design hasnt been tested. There was another company showcasing in defence expo this year, cant remember the name. There is a ofb made carbine too.

Interested to see what they can churn out (as long as its not that weird JVPC lol). From what I've seen, some Indian companies, in ties ups with foreign ones, are actually making pretty good assault rifles - so hopefully carbines will follow.

I was actually of the opinion, at one point, that since we had an extensive and successful tie up to produce the Galil Family of rifles in India - we should've just made that our standard platform (with variants depending on role).

 

[omaebakabaka]

Y

If domestic production of Ak203 gets started then it would be economical to make carbine versions of Ak203 instead of goimg for Sig/carcal/Iwi.Reduces the logistics nighmare.Seeing lots of Ak104 versions with Spetsnaz dont think will be that bad.

I think this makes more sense, AKs are simpler in build and this is the best way to go local by learning and gaining experience and eventually GOI should challenge OFB/private corps to come up with a new gun in most common categories. Special Forces are about 1% of total IA.....there should never be so many types of small arms. If you look at wiki then pretty much every type and make is present in IA. Someone can explain why so? Since when did small arms make such an impact in war based on type of assault rifle in recent times? INSAS is an exception in sorta bad way....

 

[ManhattanProject]

Interested to see what they can churn out (as long as its not that weird JVPC lol). From what I've seen, some Indian companies, in ties ups with foreign ones, are actually making pretty good assault rifles - so hopefully carbines will follow.

I was actually of the opinion, at one point, that since we had an extensive and successful tie up to produce the Galil Family of rifles in India - we should've just made that our standard platform (with variants depending on role).

ofb cqb carbine doesnt look half bad.

 

[Bleh]

ofb cqb carbine doesnt look half bad.

View attachment 59354

That's ARDE. Possibly to be manufactured by private partner.

 

[Vishal reddy]

Jarkhand IRBn with standard insas

 

[WolfPack86]

Atmanirbhar Bharat in Defence: Indian armed forces to get Indigenous SPAD-GMS and CQBs, reveal sources
Though earlier this year at the DefExpo, an announcement related to the winner was expected. However, there was none, as there has been strong opposition from the Russian side on the shortlisting of the South Korean company Hanwha Defence’s offer for the SPAD-GMS project.

At the end of a high-level meeting in the Ministry of Defence (MoD), there are plans to withdraw the Request for Proposals (RfPs) of two critical programmes — the $ 3 billion Propelled Air Defence Gun Missile System (SPAD-GMS) deal and the long-delayed Fast Track Procurement of Close Quarter Carbines. High placed sources told to Financial Express Online “Two critical programmes which have been getting delayed for various reasons are expected to be closed and these will now be made locally in an effort to ensure that the Indian Armed Forces’ dependency on imports is cut down. At the end of the meeting, it has been decided that the focus will be on `Atmanirbharbharat’ and announcement to this effect will be made soon.”

Though earlier this year at the DefExpo, an announcement related to the winner was expected. However, there was none, as there has been strong opposition from the Russian side on the shortlisting of the South Korean company Hanwha Defence’s offer for the SPAD-GMS project.

“The Russian side at various levels has been voicing its concerns to the Indian side. And there was a situation of a single vendor. Therefore, in all probability, the RfP will be withdrawn soon and the Army will go for the indigenously made gun.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, Independent monitors were appointed by the MoD to ensure that all steps were followed as per the RfP as well as the DPP and they were to come out with a comprehensive report outlining any concerns if any.

So far …
There were five bidders, and after extensive scrutiny only South Korean company and Russian company made it to the trial stage. During trials, Russia failed which left the South Korean company in the fray, thus creating a single vendor situation.

In the $ 3 billion deal, the Russian side has been making several representations to the MoD focusing on issues related to the non-compliance to the specifications laid down in the RFP. And they have also mentioned that the system offered by the South Korean Company is one generation older and if and when it is inducted in service, the army will have to go for an early upgradation.

However, as was reported earlier, in an exclusive interaction the South Korean company had refuted all these concerns raised by the Russian side in their presentations to the MoD.

“The Hybrid Biho which has been offered is the improved version of the original Biho mobile air-defence system and is fully compliant to the specifications mentioned in the RfP, “company officials had told Financial Express Online.

What is the Indian Army looking for?
The SPAD-GMS will be replacing 1360 obsolete Bofors L 70 40mm single barrel and Soviet-era ZU-23-2 towed 23 mm twin-barrel weapon systems of the Indian Army. The Indian Army needs almost five regiments of the guns which can be deployed with the forces and can be relocated based on the threat perception.
However, the specifications laid down in the RfP have remained unfulfilled by companies from Russia and South Korea.

A global tender was floated in 2013, and an upgraded Tunguska system was fielded by Almaz Ante and Pantsir by KBP Tula systems from Russia. Both the guns failed the trials. And, South Korean — Hybrid Biho system, was left in the race as a single vendor.

Close Quarter Carbine from the UAE based Caracal
Indian Army, despite making representations to the CDS explaining the critical need for the CQBs will now have to wait longer till they are made in India.

There are plans to cancel the RfP for 93,895 CQBs deal too as it has already got delayed even though it was to come through the FTP route.

Private sector companies have offered to make these locally and the MoD in an effort to promote Atmanirbharbharat is expected to announce the cancellation soon.

A fresh RfP is expected next year and it will be for over all requirement of 3.5 lakh CQB.

Atmanirbhar Bharat in Defence: Indian armed forces to get Indigenous SPAD-GMS and CQBs, reveal sources

Though earlier this year at the DefExpo, an announcement related to the winner was expected. However, there was none, as there has been strong opposition from the Russian side on the shortlisting of the South Korean company Hanwha Defence’s offer for the SPAD-GMS project.

www.financialexpress.com

 

[WolfPack86]

There are reports that #IndianArmy will now go for Indigenous carbine . OFB INSAS 1C carbine, CQB, JVPC, Amogha etc have specific field as well as X-95. I believe the standard issue requirement will be fulfilled by SSS Defence or Aste Defence. However may be by modified AK too.