INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

WolfPack86

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Fast-track deal for carbines with UAE company loses track. Caracal writes to MoD for clarity, status update, says resources under threat. Army initiated procurement in 2018.
 

WolfPack86

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Indian Army Set To Abort UAE Battle Carbine Deal?
Is the Indian Army rethinking plans to procure 93,895 battle carbines from the United Arab Emirates? While clarity on contract remains elusive, there’s reason to believe that things have hit a wall. Next month it will be two years since the Indian Army chose UAE’s government-owned Caracal International LLC as the winner for a fast-track CAR 816 carbine supply contract.


Perplexed by the delay, especially since the contest was for an ‘urgent’ requirement, the Emirati company has written to the Indian MoD seeking clarity. Reported first here, Livefist has had a chance to view the contents of the letter written on August 27, in which a senior executive at Caracal writes, “As you are aware the program is a fast track procurement which puts Caracal resources under stress as it has to account for production of the weapons on a continuous basis which creates an issue for us when considering to undertake tenders or take on larger orders for our products. We are therefore at a commercial disadvantage on being able to optimise our resources due to the program.”


Referring to ‘conflicting reports’ in Indian media, Caracal writes, “We are ready willing and able to provide the weapons… Caracal would therefore humbly request an update from the Indian MoD on when it will proceed with the program. Caracal remains 100 per cent committed to the program and would appreciate if you could kindly expedite the case and provide an update on the MoD’s status with the program.”

Apart from the conspicuous drift in a procurement that was to be under fast-track procedures, Caracal’s consternation is bolstered by another fact. Caracal’s CAR 816 won the carbine selection contest at the same time that US firearms firm Sig Sauer Inc. was selected as winner for a supply contract of 72,000 battlefield assault rifles. But while Sig Sauer Inc was awarded its ‘fast track’ contract just four months later in February 2019, no deal was signed with Caracal for the carbines. Last month, the Indian Army went ahead and doubled its order with Sig Sauer, but has yet to conclude a deal with Caracal.

Caracal’s anxiety over the delay should also be seen in light of how the UAE firm was chosen winner after a particularly ill-tempered selection process that involved multiple contenders walking away from the contest. But the Indian Army’s decision to power through the contest in light of stated urgencies seemed an assurance that there was a contract at the end. For two years now, that hasn’t happened. While the deal with Caracal may have initially slowed on cost issues, it is unclear if the government’s emphasis on ‘Atmanirbhar Bharat’ (self-reliant India) in recent months has contributed to a rethink. Either way, Caracal isn’t unjustified in seeking clarity on what it had been led to believe was a specifically quick process.


The deal for 93,895 was meant to be only a fraction of a much larger requirement for combat carbines. As Livefist reported last year, the Indian Army is looking for at least 3,60,000 more carbines.


The other major firearms program, an India-Russia joint venture to license manufacture Kalashnikov AK-203 assault rifles in Amethi, India is said to be at an ‘advanced stage’, according a statement out from the Indian MoD during defence minister Rajnath Singh’s ongoing visit to the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) ministerial summit in Moscow.

One of Livefist’s most read posts this year has been this recent one on an Indian private sector firm’s answer to the Kalashnikov rifle. Read our full interview with the company’s CEO over at our YouTube channel, where he also has plenty to say about the Indian Army’s choice of the Caracal CAR 816 carbine:
 

WolfPack86

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RED-TAPEISM: Fast-Track Deal For Carbines With UAE Company Loses Track
NEW DELHI: A UAE-based arms manufacturer shortlisted to supply urgently needed close quarter carbines for the army has written to the defence ministry seeking clarity on the project that has been delayed by almost two years. The Caracal group, which emerged as the lowest bidder for fast track procurement by the army in 2018, has expressed concern on conflicting reports about the program and has said that its resources are under stress and it has been waiting only for the final contract to start supplying the weapons.



“As you are aware the program is a fast track procurement which puts Caracal resources under stress as it has to account for production of the weapons on a continuous basis which creates an issue for us when considering to undertake tenders or take on larger orders for our products,” the Abu Dhabi based company said in a letter sent last week.



Saying that the Caracal group is committed to the project, the company requested for a status update and asked that the process be expedited. While this would have been the first major defence deal signed by India with a UAE entity, differing views have recently come up on the future of the contract initiated in 2018 to meet immediate demands.



While there has been an urgency to procure the carbines, one view is that the process needs to be reviewed to account for recent announcements on Atmanirbhar Bharat, as well as representations from domestic companies promising an equivalent product for sale.



The two-year delay in finalising the contract appears to have defeated the purpose of the fast track procedure, which cuts down procurement time by relying in demonstrations and technical data, unlike lengthy user trials conducted under the normal procedure. The procedure also requires the winning company to start supplying the weapons within six months of the contract signing.
 

samsaptaka

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Like I said, the word 'fast' has no meaning, no wonder pvt companies do not like dealing with MoD bastards. :frusty: :facepalm:
 

Chinmoy

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RED-TAPEISM: Fast-Track Deal For Carbines With UAE Company Loses Track
NEW DELHI: A UAE-based arms manufacturer shortlisted to supply urgently needed close quarter carbines for the army has written to the defence ministry seeking clarity on the project that has been delayed by almost two years. The Caracal group, which emerged as the lowest bidder for fast track procurement by the army in 2018, has expressed concern on conflicting reports about the program and has said that its resources are under stress and it has been waiting only for the final contract to start supplying the weapons.



“As you are aware the program is a fast track procurement which puts Caracal resources under stress as it has to account for production of the weapons on a continuous basis which creates an issue for us when considering to undertake tenders or take on larger orders for our products,” the Abu Dhabi based company said in a letter sent last week.



Saying that the Caracal group is committed to the project, the company requested for a status update and asked that the process be expedited. While this would have been the first major defence deal signed by India with a UAE entity, differing views have recently come up on the future of the contract initiated in 2018 to meet immediate demands.



While there has been an urgency to procure the carbines, one view is that the process needs to be reviewed to account for recent announcements on Atmanirbhar Bharat, as well as representations from domestic companies promising an equivalent product for sale.



The two-year delay in finalising the contract appears to have defeated the purpose of the fast track procedure, which cuts down procurement time by relying in demonstrations and technical data, unlike lengthy user trials conducted under the normal procedure. The procedure also requires the winning company to start supplying the weapons within six months of the contract signing.
That's a good news. Boon in disguise.
 

Himanshu Trivedi

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Looks like IA brass at that time should equally share the blame for INSAS fiasco, not just DRDO & OFB.

These are fundamental project management issues rather than a product issue, like:

1) not testing the product enough before deployment
2) making the false assumption that product designer should be involved 10 years after the development cycle is closed.
3) delayed product feed back loops.

These things happen everywhere, but still.
Indian Army top brass is always responsible for any wrong doing. looking at the size of force, training and experiences, it is not at all acceptable.
 

Chinmoy

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Don’t know what makes you say that. These were to replace the almost 100+ year old 9mm carbines which will now clearly be serving another 10,15,20 years?
There is one company named PLR which is manufacturing Tavor and other IWI series in India. With this, there is a chance for them to foray in the scene. Even chances for OFB products like JVPC, Kalantak rises with it. So yeah, it s a boon in disguise.
 

Flying Dagger

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There is one company named PLR which is manufacturing Tavor and other IWI series in India. With this, there is a chance for them to foray in the scene. Even chances for OFB products like JVPC, Kalantak rises with it. So yeah, it s a boon in disguise.
It is acquired by Adani now. They will be manufacturing Negev LMG too ( not entire ).

He has acquired alpha defense and will produce Hermes drones in India too through a Hyderabad facility. Anyway good for defence industry of India. It's a start atleast.

OFB can also field carbine version of AK series. Opportunity are immense.

Though I think caracal should have been used to buy off right to produce the caracal rifle by OFB and throw them some order.. in long term we need to replace the current Sig 716 acquisition with a GP version of it and probably move to 6.5/6.8 round.
 

abingdonboy

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There is one company named PLR which is manufacturing Tavor and other IWI series in India. With this, there is a chance for them to foray in the scene. Even chances for OFB products like JVPC, Kalantak rises with it. So yeah, it s a boon in disguise.
I’m aware but first the IA has to select a PLR product for this role, THAT is the hurdle not making in India

Any indication that they are going to give the contract to PLR? Literally none.
 

Flying Dagger

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They will be making negev LMG here also Tavor and other Israeli rifles are used by special forces and crpf also took a limited delivery.

You never know what's next in card though I am expecting Caracal/Sig deal or carbine version of AK..

I’m aware but first the IA has to select a PLR product for this role, THAT is the hurdle not making in India

Any indication that they are going to give the contract to PLR? Literally none.
 

Chinmoy

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I’m aware but first the IA has to select a PLR product for this role, THAT is the hurdle not making in India

Any indication that they are going to give the contract to PLR? Literally none.
PLR is making IWI products which already participated in the CQB tender. So yes, IA has already tested its product.
So if this order gets cancelled, PLR would not have any issue to make a way in.
 

piKacHHu

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PLR is making IWI products which already participated in the CQB tender. So yes, IA has already tested its product.
So if this order gets cancelled, PLR would not have any issue to make a way in.
It's not certain that PLR would get the tender. Any Foreign OEM that includes CARACAL also could tie up with local vendor and get eligible under MII. And FYI, no progress has been seen on Carbine tender under MII so far. I guess the issue is not whether PLR will come into picture or not. The real issue is the delay in replacement of vintage Sterlings. Under FTP, like SIG contract these carbines are supposed to be delivered within 12-18 months. Question is whether you want our infantry to drag sterlings around for another half a decade till its replacement come from another long and unwieldy tender process ?

Second, cancelling carbine FTP without any apparent reason would add another jewel in the crown of MoD who is notorious globally for retracting tender hence breaching the trust around the due process followed for procurement. Such practices often promote to unethical lobbying or bribing and now since we are quite relaxed as of now that Modi will not allow any corruption at top level but who knows what happens in future when some other government come and start using this tool for extracting money from defense purchases.

It would also be a big question mark on collective wisdom of Army and MoD bosses who processed this tender till "L1" was declared just 2 years ago. Now, if you didn't had intention of buying carbine at first place, why did you proceeded with declaring winner of the contest. Sadly, no one asks such tough question from these people who are currently holding posts at MoD and army.
 

Chinmoy

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It's not certain that PLR would get the tender. Any Foreign OEM that includes CARACAL also could tie up with local vendor and get eligible under MII. And FYI, no progress has been seen on Carbine tender under MII so far. I guess the issue is not whether PLR will come into picture or not. The real issue is the delay in replacement of vintage Sterlings. Under FTP, like SIG contract these carbines are supposed to be delivered within 12-18 months. Question is whether you want our infantry to drag sterlings around for another half a decade till its replacement come from another long and unwieldy tender process ?

Second, cancelling carbine FTP without any apparent reason would add another jewel in the crown of MoD who is notorious globally for retracting tender hence breaching the trust around the due process followed for procurement. Such practices often promote to unethical lobbying or bribing and now since we are quite relaxed as of now that Modi will not allow any corruption at top level but who knows what happens in future when some other government come and start using this tool for extracting money from defense purchases.

It would also be a big question mark on collective wisdom of Army and MoD bosses who processed this tender till "L1" was declared just 2 years ago. Now, if you didn't had intention of buying carbine at first place, why did you proceeded with declaring winner of the contest. Sadly, no one asks such tough question from these people who are currently holding posts at MoD and army.
First of all, its not certain that the deal for CARACAL has been shelved. There is no official confirmation on that. But looking at the bureaucracy involved, I would not be surprised if it gets shelved owing to one document or other.
In such a scenario, if Galil or any of the IWI platform gets selected, which have a very good chance thou, PLR system would automatically come into scene as it would fall under DPP Make II category.
So there is no need to jump the gun as of now I believe.
 

piKacHHu

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In such a scenario, if Galil or any of the IWI platform gets selected, which have a very good chance thou, PLR system would automatically come into scene as it would fall under DPP Make II category.
So there is no need to jump the gun as of now I believe.
You didn't get the point which I was highlighting. Canceling of Carbine FTP is NO Blessing in Disguise !!
It would protract the Sterling replacement for too long if the tender is scrapped now given the new tender floated for carbine procurement under MII hasn't reached RFP stage yet. IMO,This FTP could act as stop-gap measure till the domestic ones (it could be Galil, or even CAR 816) begin to manufacture.
I hope better sense will prevail and decision makers won't make joke of the FTP tender by dragging the deal for so long. In fact, it's relatively more honest to scrap the tender altogether supported by valid reasons rather than protracting the deal hence mocking the so called "Fast Track" procurement.
 

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