INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[Lonewarrior]

There are many countries in the world which uses 5.56 Aks, Galils, Fncs Fals who couldnt afford M4s.with refinement and cosmetic changes in hand guards addition of rails and 30 round mags excalibers could be sold to them.

As far as my experience goes, OFB will prefer crying (or may be a small strike) about foreign and Indian private companies getting tenders over making a weapon that can be sold overseas.
And even if OFB makes an improved Excalibur, it will take time. Enough for Norinco to sell may be an improved M4.

Ofcourse not at the price at which they are sold to police forces.

They won't.

Dont know why Ofb copied Akm when they could have just copied much lighter Vz58s if they need something in 7.62

Ya, and that too when they were manufacturing FN FAL of excellent quality, which is pretty similar to Vz.
May be they realised tilting bolt was sure to get obsolete.

 

[Baabaai]

If I'm not wrong, there were several occasions during Vietnam war where US Army personals thrown their AR 15/ M16 riffle and grab AK-47 from dead Viet Cong comrades for very same reason. Reliability is the only best feature of AK

Yes you are right brother. Those were the very first design that were sent to the US soldiers. Despite its short comings they inducted the gun and kept on improving it.

 

[Flying Dagger]

I would like OFB to work on TAR and Ghatak

TAR is actually much more refined than Ghatak but Ghatak is getting the bulk of orders in comparison to TAR so there might be something which ain't right with either product or the marketing.

AR based rifles like SCAR H/L in 7.62 and 6.8/5.45 round by changing barrel should be copied or licensed produced by OFBs. If they can get even 80-90% right there is hope for their revival else they'll go on like a burden they are.

Also we need to improve on our ammo quality. The existing INSAS can be dumped to police etc.

There is no need to revive what doesn't work. Caracal of UAE is one e.g. how an industry is developed . Now they have in house dev of small arms and will possibly follow through with more with such endeavours while we despite having a long history experience and major workforce are stuck in 70s craftsmanship.

 

[Lonewarrior]

I would like OFB to work on TAR and Ghatak

TAR is actually much more refined than Ghatak but Ghatak is getting the bulk of orders in comparison to TAR so there might be something which ain't right with either product or the marketing.

AR based rifles like SCAR H/L in 7.62 and 6.8/5.45 round by changing barrel should be copied or licensed produced by OFBs. If they can get even 80-90% right there is hope for their revival else they'll go on like a burden they are.

Also we need to improve on our ammo quality. The existing INSAS can be dumped to police etc.

May be Ghatak's price is slightly less due to stamped construction.
Anyway, totally agree on your points.

Except, this one.

Caracal of UAE is one e.g. how an industry is developed . Now they have in house dev of small arms and will possibly follow through with more with such endeavours while we despite having a long history experience and major workforce are stuck in 70s craftsmanship.

The funny thing about Caracal is how similar it is to our domestic private defence contractors. If you pay attention then you will find almost 90-95% Indian private companies are just "making" something, not developing. Either JV, or ToT or simply copying, and that's the modus operandi of almost all firms. They are in business solely on the basis of capital.
Same goes with Caracal, the only thing they have is money, a lot of money. As of now almost all of their firearms are designed via outsourcing. In most cases to a German firearms manufacturer, Haenel.

 

[Flying Dagger]

May be Ghatak's price is slightly less due to stamped construction.
Anyway, totally agree on your points.

Except, this one.

The funny thing about Caracal is how similar it is to our domestic private defence contractors. If you pay attention then you will find almost 90-95% Indian private companies are just "making" something, not developing. Either JV, or ToT or simply copying, and that's the modus operandi of almost all firms. They are in business solely on the basis of capital.
Same goes with Caracal, the only thing they have is money, a lot of money. As of now almost all of their firearms are designed via outsourcing. In most cases to a German firearms manufacturer, Haenel.

Yes but it's better than license production since they own it and have pretty much standardized everything.

The production standard is world class too offcourse Germans are managing at the top but that's how whole UAE works.

But with us.. we copy and produce substandard products ammo and dump them to forces.

And our private industries aren't even near around caracal right now.

 

[Raj Malhotra]

Till 2016, the production of Ghatak & Trichey was only 1000 per annum. Has it increased? I think target was 30,000 per annum

 

[Lonewarrior]

Yes but it's better than license production since they own it and have pretty much standardized everything.

The production standard is world class too offcourse Germans are managing at the top but that's how whole UAE works.

But with us.. we copy and produce substandard products ammo and dump them to forces.

And our private industries aren't even near around caracal right now.

How a defence company is born is India.

1. Someone tells a big industrial house (TATA, Mahindra, L&T, Adani, Kalyani, SSS Springs) that the profit margin on defence products are insanely high. Sometimes even 50-70%.
2. They invest money, which they have a lot.
3. And their sole motive is to somehow bag a contract. For that they can do only JV/ToT/copying as R&D was never a priority for them, profit was.

Now compare this to global giants. Be it Northrop Grumman or Lockheed Martin or Heckler & Koch, they all were started by individuals or small group of people who lacked capital, but were driven by sheer passion.

In India this list starts with TONBO Imaging and ends on MKU.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Till 2016, the production of Ghatak & Trichey was only 1000 per annum. Has it increased? I think target was 30,000 per annum

There is no point in increasing production if there is no order.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Till 2016, the production of Ghatak & Trichey was only 1000 per annum. Has it increased? I think target was 30,000 per annum

It is increased but why 30k when they don't have an order book .

The total order was somewhat around 60k rifles for both so 10k-15k is more than enough for now.

 

[Raj Malhotra]

I think MHA wanted 30,000 p.a. When OFB failed for 5 years to produce anything, the order was reduced to 5,000 p.a. OFB started producing 1,000 p.a around 2015, thereafter I don't know.

 

[Lonewarrior]

I think MHA wanted 30,000 p.a. When OFB failed for 5 years to produce anything, the order was reduced to 5,000 p.a. OFB started producing 1,000 p.a around 2015, thereafter I don't know.

IIRC the current combined (all civilian and military) capacity of OFB is way more than 30,000 per annum.

Changing requirements from 30,000 to 5,000 p.a. sounds bit weird. That is a lag of 5 years.
Same with OFBs capacity of 1,000 p.a.. That's way less considering the machinery and workforce OFBs usually have at their disposal.

It seems like usual government "aao ek dusre ka kata jaye" situation.

 

[ManhattanProject]

If I'm not wrong, there were several occasions during Vietnam war where US Army personals thrown their AR 15/ M16 riffle and grab AK-47 from dead Viet Cong comrades for very same reason. Reliability is the only best feature of AK

there is much more to it, do your research better

 

[ManhattanProject]

If I'm not wrong, there were several occasions during Vietnam war where US Army personals thrown their AR 15/ M16 riffle and grab AK-47 from dead Viet Cong comrades for very same reason. Reliability is the only best feature of AK

proving you wrong.

 

[ManhattanProject]

considering we are a functional military and not a terrorist gorilla force, we clean our rifles regularly, hence the AR makes more sense, and looking at how the army went with the sig 716 tread i am right

 

[Lonewarrior]

Hey @ManhattanProject there's no point putting forth facts here. People's perspective ain't gonna change. The crowd prefers Mall Ninjas to regular Joes. Every infantryman should be made a Tier 1 operator, that's what everyone wants.

Anyways

 

[vishnugupt]

there is much more to it, do your research better

I did my search and came to know seized AK was used for special operations by American soldiers. Whatever I have said is not based on Youtube video, its History and You cant change it.

proving you wrong.

If you think you have just replicated Vietnam by pouring Mudd on the rifle superficially then you seriously need to improve your way of thinking and perceptions

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

 

[Flying Dagger]

I did my search and came to know seized AK was used for special operations by American soldiers. Whatever I have said is not based on Youtube video, its History and You cant change it.


If you think you have just replicated Vietnam by pouring Mudd on the rifle superficially then you seriously need to improve your way of thinking and perceptions

No one argued on that so there is no point in repeating the same to prove your wrong perception of ARs right.

Yes in Vietnam the rifles suffered jamming issues

But American soldiers started using captured rifles from dead viet soldiers.

This story has one big flaw and that is availability of AK rounds for American soldiers.

May be sometimes they used them that's it. AK did outperform though .

Same happened with Indian soldiers in Srilanka and in anti terror ops where they encountered diff version of Aks. The result AKs were imported .

Since then ARs have evolved multifold and current rifles like SCAR H/L Sig 716 etc are prime e.g. of that.

 

[Vishal reddy]

Uttar Pradesh armed police armoury!!
Standard INSAS
INSAS 1b
Ofb shortgun
Ishapore Lee Enfields

 

[Suryavanshi]

considering we are a functional military and not a terrorist gorilla force, we clean our rifles regularly, hence the AR makes more sense, and looking at how the army went with the sig 716 tread i am right

That's the best part of a AK and that is why it's the most most prodcued Battle rifle in the world
150 million+ produced till date.

It some african tribes it has become part of their culture.