INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[Lonewarrior]

I have rudimentary knowledge about ballistics next to nothing. Your points are factual and thanks for the knowledge but I still maintain that 7.62 is a better round. I understand its heavier and the load carrying capacity of a soldier and 5.56 is lighter. I dont want to start a 5.56 vs 7.62 debate I was more concerned with the insas rifle per say. The rifles has a jamming issue. Ask any one who has fired the rifle, I am not sure about the latest variants if there are any but the good old infantry rifle. It jams a lot even the lmg. Where as Kalashnikov is a trusted platform. There is a reason why army is going back to the 7.62 round.

1. Trust me, that's how much knowledge you need. Ballistics is nothing more than knowing some exotic ways of multiplying mass and velocity.

2. For the sake of professionalism, please write 7.62x39mm and 7.62x51mm whenever possible. You mentioned weight of round and load carrying capacity, but AFAIK the weight difference between 5.56 NATO and 7.62x39mm is of just 5-6 grams.

3. If someone needs to debate about 7.62x39mm and 5.56x45mm then he's either a scientist of terminal ballistics or another armchair expert whose sole source of information is Wikipedia articles.
AK rounds are good only for CQC and INSAS/M4 for typical infantry type engagements, that's it.

4. Grammatical error, The rifles had a jamming issue.
Well why don't we break down each and every issue of INSAS?
1. Cheap plastic magazines crack in alpine conditions. Corrected, magazines are no more outsourced from furniture manufacturers.
2. Malfunction. Also rectified.
3. Spraying of oil in soldier's eyes. As far as my knowledge about firearms goes, it's not a technical issue. Pour oil in SIG 716s and they will start doing the same.
4. Firing full auto in 3 round burst mode. It was a serious issue. A proper 3 round burst trigger mechanism is far beyond OFB's calibre. But guess what, we simply got rid of 3R burst.
5. It looks crappy with bad ergonomics. Well so does every other Kalashnikov. And looking crappy is the USP of OFB firearms.

5. If you're not sure about recent iterations then don't you think you should first be sure about them.

6. "That is the reason army is going back to 7.62 round"
Really that's the reason? I'm interested now, please elaborate.
Coz I thought we were inducting AKs and M43s for the sole purpose of pleasing the Ruskies.

 

[Lonewarrior]

It's an old video but this lmg can be worked upon. I guess we have many private players who can modify it according to our needs.

Now you are bringing a 7.62x51mm FN MAG in 5.56x45mm Vs 7.62x39mm debate

 

[Lonewarrior]

Well going by your logic if a single 5.56 round can leave a soldier/tango any one ruptured than gren yogendra singh who took 17 bullets must me lying than based on what he did after that.

And from what distance he took those hits?

 

[Thundering13th]

Now you are bringing a 7.62x51mm FN MAG in 5.56x45mm Vs 7.62x39mm debate

See bro I am not an expert in ballistic I conceded that. The local soldier is not an expert either. You might make a valid point about the round dimensions etc. The truth is the indian army rejected the 5.56 out right. Be it minas 5.56 round or the NATO round. Good or bad is a different discussion. I simply say it's a right decision. The job of the bullet is to destroy the target not injure it. You can throw a lot of facts but the truth is whenever there is a cqb troops prefer the ak. You can go and have a debate with them about ballistics. I brought the mag lmg bcoz I feel insas lmg is a waste of time. Nothing else. If you have problem with 51 we can recharge it for 39. Anyways it's still in the making.

 

[Thundering13th]

And from what distance he took those hits?

As per the video he says the paki came and started shooting at the corpses to check if they are dead or not. How far you think they would be?

 

[Thundering13th]

As per the video he says the paki came and started shooting at the corpses to check if they are dead or not. How far you think they would be?

He also said wo humare hathiyar utha ne lage

 

[Lonewarrior]

The truth is the indian army rejected the 5.56 out right.

See again you are mixing 5.56x30mm MINSAS with 5.56x45mm. But ya, there's no point arguing on this as it won't yield any result.

So countering only your above statement with some figures.
1. Soon we are going to order 1-1.5 lakh carbines.
2. Almost a 3rd of assault rifles used by all SFs are M4s.
3. Almost another 3rd of assault rifles used by all SFs are Tavor/X-95.
4. Soon an order for 1500 SCAR-L will be placed.

And guess what, all of these are chambered in your little whimpy 5.56x45mm NATO.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Well going by your logic if a single 5.56 round can leave a soldier/tango any one ruptured than gren yogendra singh who took 17 bullets must me lying than based on what he did after that.

As per the video he says the paki came and started shooting at the corpses to check if they are dead or not. How far you think they would be?

He also said wo humare hathiyar utha ne lage

Saying that a Small Calibre High Velocity round is bad because it did negligible damage when fired from a point blank range.

Now that's good, you are countering yourself. Good.

 

[Thundering13th]

See again you are mixing 5.56x30mm MINSAS with 5.56x45mm. But ya, there's no point arguing on this as it won't yield any result.

So countering only your above statement with some figures.
1. Soon we are going to order 1-1.5 lakh carbines.
2. Almost a 3rd of assault rifles used by all SFs are M4s.
3. Almost another 3rd of assault rifles used by all SFs are Tavor/X-95.
4. Soon an order for 1500 SCAR-L will be placed.

And guess what, all of these are chambered in your little whimpy 5.56x45mm NATO.

I dont deny your points neither do I say 7.62 is better or 5.56 is better. Both have different usage I am sure. But I guess you cant compare a carbine to a battle rifle. All I am trying to say is you can go and prove me wrong with facts i agree. But the point is its neither what I think or you think that matters. Army is replacing 5.56 with 7.62 be it 51 or 39. And I can only say that it's a good decision.Insas rifle was not good enough. You can state 10 facts to prove me wrong but the thing is we are getting 7.62 rifles in both the caliber to replace 5.56 as a main weapon. Now SF is a different game. The roles are different objectives are different. So I leave it to your expert opinion with my final words saying the army considers buying the ak203 more relevant than an improved insas 5.56

 

[Thundering13th]

Saying that a Small Calibre High Velocity round is bad because it did negligible damage when fired from a point blank range.

Now that's good, you are countering yourself. Good.

Well its seems you are too quick to comment on someone with sarkari connections. It's an old game. The truth is without the baby's the country would go into paralysis. Coming back to the point SF has inducted many 5.56 rifles of different calibers but never given up on the old AK. Now you can call its VZ and other models the truth is all this are variants of kalashnikov. And the army trust the platform. Knowledge is good but then what happens on the ground is more relevant. From point blank a 9mm hand gun and a 7.62mm hand gun will have different affects. And more than bookish knowledge I would go with the feedback from ground.

 

[ManhattanProject]

Well its seems you are too quick to comment on someone with sarkari connections. It's an old game. The truth is without the baby's the country would go into paralysis. Coming back to the point SF has inducted many 5.56 rifles of different calibers but never given up on the old AK. Now you can call its VZ and other models the truth is all this are variants of kalashnikov. And the army trust the platform. Knowledge is good but then what happens on the ground is more relevant. From point blank a 9mm hand gun and a 7.62mm hand gun will have different affects. And more than bookish knowledge I would go with the feedback from ground.

if you think the vz 58 is a derivative of the AK platform then you dont know anything about guns. The only thing common between the vz and the ak is the calibre, rest everything is different, hell they dont even have interchangeable magazines, both have completely different operating mechanisms and completely different bolt locking. There isnt a single part on the vz58 that can be interchanged with the ak, not even the fire control group, heck the vz isnt even hammer fired its striker fired.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

From an unknown Armoury

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

INSAS with Side Folding Stock

 

[Bhadra]

What does it take to keep this thread alive....????
The King is dead Long Live the King - SIG SAUR 716...

 

[Tactical Doge]

View attachment 53239
From an unknown Armoury

More "orangey" than a orange field ready for plucking..............
Literally tooooooooooo muchhhhhhhhhhh oraannngggge...............

 

[Illusive]

Any orders for SSS......the best time to give some orders for pvt. Indian small arms companies, somehow no news of that, just imports.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Any orders for SSS......the best time to give some orders for pvt. Indian small arms companies, somehow no news of that, just imports.

As discussed earlier they seem to be having dubious credentials.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Any orders for SSS......the best time to give some orders for pvt. Indian small arms companies, somehow no news of that, just imports.

Practical answer to your question, without diving deep into technicalities.

1. We need 7.62x51mm assault rifles, which they obviously claim to have but as of now there isn't a single pic of even it's mock-up.

2. We need 5.56x45mm assault rifles, which they obviously claim to have but as of now there isn't a single pic of even it's mock-up.

3. Their 2nd flagship firearm P-72 RECR is a modified AK-47 chambered in 7.62x39mm. We have already invested an enormous amount of capital in developing factory and tooling for AK-103M, so there is no turning back.

4. Their flagship is Sabre and Viper sniper rifles, and there is indeed a requirement for similar platform.
If government directly buys from them, trust me I will file a petition citing violation of rules previously set to deal with single vendor situation.
Or otherwise in case of a traditional bidding, it will be interesting to see them compete with other platforms.

 

[Lonewarrior]

As discussed earlier they seem to be having dubious credentials.

Aisa nai bolte bhaiya, twitteratiyon ko bura lagta hai. Please.

 

[Thundering13th]

if you think the vz 58 is a derivative of the AK platform then you dont know anything about guns. The only thing common between the vz and the ak is the calibre, rest everything is different, hell they dont even have interchangeable magazines, both have completely different operating mechanisms and completely different bolt locking. There isnt a single part on the vz58 that can be interchanged with the ak, not even the fire control group, heck the vz isnt even hammer fired its striker fired.

No sir I am not in active service and hence I dont know much about guns to be honest. Although I have fired quite a few rounds with the good old .303, SLR, the insas and variants of ak. Thanks for clarifying the difference between the vz58 and the ak. Some of my notions stand corrected. Thank you. The base of the discussion was insas rifle /5.56 vs the ak platform 7.62 and I simply said that I have spoken to few jawans and officers who are my friend and few because of some "sarkari" connections they all have reposed faith on the Kalashnikov or 7.62 caliber over insas 5.56.