INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[vishnugupt]

He is Commodore Sukhjindar Singh. He was the incharge of INS Vikramaditya's refit in Russia.

Officially he is accused of "sexual misconducts" by the navy.

Unofficially he is accused of being honeytrapped by Russian agents and then manipulated to increase the cost of refits by almost a billion dollars.

HAHAHA.......
Still many forum members will pretend here like Guru, Sir, Defence experts or sacrosanct and Preach us why Armed force need foreign weapons, How DRDO is a shit, why we need zillions of trials of Indian weapons... BS
Because we are facing two front war. Surprisingly, contrary to their intelligence they couldn't notice this third front, "Bed front"

 

[Lonewarrior]

HAHAHA.......
Still many forum members will pretend here like Guru, Sir, Defence experts or sacrosanct and Preach us why Armed force need foreign weapons, How DRDO is a shit, why we need zillions of trials of Indian weapons... BS
Because we are facing two front war. Surprisingly, contrary to their intelligence they couldn't notice this third front, "Bed front"

And believe me, I'm also one of those.

Sorry to break your heart, but MOST of the Indian small arms (both private and PSU) are actually shit.

 

[vishnugupt]

And believe me, I'm also one of those.

Sorry to break your heart, but MOST of the Indian small arms (both private and PSU) are actually shit.

GHATAK is also a shit??

 

[Lonewarrior]

GHATAK is also a shit??

And that's why I wrote most in bold

 

[vishnugupt]

And that's why I wrote most in bold

And that's why I asked Ghatak specifically. Because all weapons has designed as per army requirements and if Army requirements are shit then how you design best product? They had given 5.56*45 mm requirement they build INSAS when they gave 7.26*39 they build Ghatak which is working fine.
INSAS itself is a good rifle. Almost all faults of INSAS has been rectified. The problem with INSAS is it built around Army GSQR of injuring enemy not to kill enemy but now Army demanding shoot to kill assault rifle for Kashmir insurgency.

MSMC ( Milap ) design is unique. I can bet if This Carbine would have foreign origin then Indian forces will be first to buy it.

 

[Lonewarrior]

And that's why I asked Ghatak specifically. Because all weapons has designed as per army requirements and if Army requirements are shit then how you design best product? They had given 5.56*45 mm requirement they build INSAS when they gave 7.26*39 they build Ghatak which is working fine.
INSAS itself is a good rifle. Almost all faults of INSAS has been rectified. The problem with INSAS is it built around Army GSQR of injuring enemy not to kill enemy but now Army demanding shoot to kill assault rifle for Kashmir insurgency.

Well I don't know anything about firearms, but isn't there supposed to be a long list of criteria that must be fulfilled and then there is trials followed by bidding?

Selecting a rifle just because it's in the said caliber sounds bit weird to me.

 

[vishnugupt]

Well I don't know anything about firearms, but isn't there supposed to be a long list of criteria that must be fulfilled and then there is trials followed by bidding?

Selecting a rifle just because it's in the said caliber sounds bit weird to me.

Caliber is the soul of any firearm. It is first requirement to be given. it decide nature of the arms. All other requirements are secondary

 

[Lonewarrior]

Caliber is the soul of any firearm. It is first requirement to be given. it decide nature of the arms. All other requirements are secondary

Ok, enough of for*play. Let's get serious.

There is no denial that's there are loopholes in Indian small arms selection and time and time they have been exploited.
1. Beretta MX4 is one of worst gun in its category, still it was selected.
2. Victrix Scorpio MilLE is probably the most expensive and also not the best in its class, still they were ordered.
3. AK-103M was ordered, despite having Ghatak and TAR with almost similar capabilities.

But, and this butt is bit big
1. In late 2017 Portugal published RFP for 300 ARs in 7.62x51mm, 11,000 ARs in 5.56x45mm and 320 GPMGs in 7.62x51mm.
At which point OFB was having INSAS 7.62x51mm, INSAS and FN MAG.
Where were they??

2. Netherlands and Germany had requirements for 7.62x51mm assault rifles.
Did OFB bid?

 

[Lonewarrior]

MSMC ( Milap ) design is unique. I can bet if This Carbine would have foreign origin then Indian forces will be first to buy it.

I think unique doesn't translate to good.
When the concept of PDW came, it was the talk of the town. Everyone was rushing to make something in this revolutionary calibre that can do the job of both a rifle and a SMG.
But soon the dust settled, and it was found that a SMG chambered in +P+ and a 5.56x45mm assault rifle with pistol barrel was sufficiently capable of doing what the PDW was supposed to do and that too without the cost of procuring an exotic ammunition.

As of now PDWs are used more or less only by VIP protection units.

Considering what OFB is (in)famous for making, JVPC is revolutionary. But don't you think the bar shouldn't be that low?
How does JVPC compares to HK MP7A2 and FN Herstal P90?

 

[vishnugupt]

Ok, enough of for*play. Let's get serious.

when you are serious never use foul words.

There is no denial that's there are loopholes in Indian small arms selection and time and time they have been exploited.
1. Beretta MX4 is one of worst gun in its category, still it was selected.
2. Victrix Scorpio MilLE is probably the most expensive and also not the best in its class, still they were ordered.
3. AK-103M was ordered, despite having Ghatak and TAR with almost similar capabilities.

This is what exactly I wanted to notify you. so case closed

But, and this butt is bit big
1. In late 2017 Portugal published RFP for 300 ARs in 7.62x51mm, 11,000 ARs in 5.56x45mm and 320 GMPGs in 7.62x51mm.
At which point OFB was having INSAS 7.62x51mm, INSAS and FN MAG.
Where were they??

2. Netherlands and Germany had requirements for 7.62x51mm assault rifles.
Did OFB bid?

Because, these mentioned countries did not invite OFB or DRDO for bidding. Moreover, even if they had invited they still need permission from MOD. Or may be OFB has enough work in hand.
but your point was not this. you simply said Indian made small arms are just shit which is wrong.

 

[Lonewarrior]

when you are serious never use foul words.

This is what exactly I wanted to notify you. so case closed

Because, these mentioned countries did not invite OFB or DRDO for bidding. Moreover, even if they had invited they still need permission from MOD. Or may be OFB has enough work in hand.
but your point was not this. you simply said Indian made small arms are just shit which is wrong.

Not invited? No one invites.
And if really they were not invited then the question arises why???

Because Tonbo Imaging and MKU were also not invited, but they submitted RFI, competed with global players and secured orders. Interestingly enough, they even got permission from MoD despite being private firms.
If I'm not wrong, then OFB is a government company.

Ok f*ck invitation and RFI and trials, how many in-house developed guns have been sold by OFB in US and European civilian market?

 

[vishnugupt]

I think unique doesn't translate to good.

Giving the DRDO ability to design a carbine. I think it is unique.

When the concept of PDW came, it was the talk of the town. Everyone was rushing to make something in this revolutionary calibre that can do the job of both a rifle and a SMG.
But soon the dust settled, and it was found that a SMG chambered in +P+ and a 5.56x45mm assault rifle with pistol barrel was sufficiently capable of doing what the PDW was supposed to do and that too without the cost of procuring an exotic ammunition.

This whole peace say you some where belongs to Armed forces because whatever you said is very old concept and 5.56*45mm rifle never even considered as PDW

As of now PDWs are used more or less only by VIP protection units.

wrong. They exclusively use in CQC or urban warfare

Considering what OFB is (in)famous for making, JVPC is revolutionary. But don't you think the bar shouldn't be that low?
How does JVPC compares to HK MP7A2 and FN Herstal P90

JVPC is a new weapon and never given the chance to prove it ( small orders). other two is well established.
Don't forget DRDO have to match requirements not to compare with fantasies of Armed forces. For that matter, JVPC doesn't come with kick back money, lots of chicks, Foreign tour or may be JVPC is less shinny

 

[vishnugupt]

Not invited? No one invites.
And if really they were not invited then the question arises why???

Because Tonbo Imaging and MKU were also not invited, but they submitted RFI, competed with global players and secured orders. Interestingly enough, they even got permission from MoD despite being private firms.
If I'm not wrong, then OFB is a government company.

Ok f*ck invitation and RFI and trials, how many in-house developed guns have been sold by OFB in US and European civilian market?

Why are you bringing this discussion to OFB or DRDO or Any tenders. Talk about weapons. Tell us any particular problem why Small Arms are shit??
Same thing I can say, How many riffles China exported to USA or Germany exported. This is a pure form of frustration nothing else. Let it go and continue doing this what you said

And believe me, I'm also one of those.

Sorry to break your heart, but MOST of the Indian small arms (both private and PSU) are actually shit.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Why are you bringing this discussion to OFB or DRDO or Any tenders. Talk about weapons. Tell us any particular problem why Small Arms are shit??
Same thing I can say, How many riffles China exported to USA or Germany exported. This is a pure form of frustration nothing else. Let it go and continue doing this what you said

Come on, you aren't even trying now.
Seriously, why I'm bringing tenders in discussion about a weapon's quality?
May be because that's how you prove your quality.

As I said, now you are boring me.
1. How many rifles China imported in USA? Tough question, as import of Chinese arms in USA is banned.
But don't feel sad, just check how many guns Norinco exported to Canada.

2. And about Germany.
What's the standard issue rifle of USMC?
What's M110A1?

 

[Lonewarrior]

This whole peace say you some where belongs to Armed forces because whatever you said is very old concept and 5.56*45mm rifle never even considered as PDW

Btw, good night.

 

[vishnugupt]

Come on, you aren't even trying now.
Seriously, why I'm bringing tenders in discussion about a weapon's quality?
May be because that's how you prove your quality.

As I said, now you are boring me.
1. How many rifles China imported in USA? Tough question, as import of Chinese arms in USA is banned.
But don't feel sad, just check how many guns Norinco exported to Canada.

2. And about Germany.
What's the standard issue rifle of USMC?
What's M110A1?

I think you read my post again. I am rejecting whole point of this arguments. this is useless.
Tell us about faults in Indian made weapons otherwise good night. namaste

 

[Killswitch]

The following makes sense to me:
PDW: MSMC 556x30
Assault rifle AK 203 762x39
Battle Rifle: Sig 716 G2 762x51
GPMG: Negev 7 762x51
Medium Sniper: Scorpion 338
Heavy Sniper: Gepard Lynx 12.7
Heavy Machien Gun: Kord 12.7

These 7 systems (with 5 calibers) could equip at least 90% of IA infantry, the border forces (BSF, ITBP), and the paramilitary forces. 9mm, 556x45, 762x54, and other calibers could be phased out to simplify logistics and training.

It does not take a genius to make a straight forward plan that is based on battle-proven systems that would simplify training and logistics. If the fact that most of these systems aren't Indian products is an issue, just go for a make in India option with TOT. Problem solved.

As someone who shoots on a regular basis, the inability to modernize Indian small arms in a timely manner is ridiculous to me.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

INSAS with paint job

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

INSAS LMG

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

INSAS 1B1 with 30 round magazine