INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

Lonewarrior

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No sir I am not in active service and hence I dont know much about guns to be honest. Although I have fired quite a few rounds with the good old .303, SLR, the insas and variants of ak. Thanks for clarifying the difference between the vz58 and the ak. Some of my notions stand corrected. Thank you. The base of the discussion was insas rifle /5.56 vs the ak platform 7.62 and I simply said that I have spoken to few jawans and officers who are my friend and few because of some "sarkari" connections they all have reposed faith on the Kalashnikov or 7.62 caliber over insas 5.56.
Sorry to bother you one last time sir, trust me it's the last time.

The expected range of 9mm pistol is 50m, which is pretty low. And that of .50 BMG is 1500m, a decent one.
So the question is why haven't everyone replaced their 9mm pistols with .50 BMG pistols?

Yaa, I'm again being technical.
Ok, this one's good.
Which is better, a saw or a hammer?

If you have understood what I'm trying to say then you probably know whether 5.56x45mm is better, or 7.62x39mm is.
 

ManhattanProject

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No sir I am not in active service and hence I dont know much about guns to be honest. Although I have fired quite a few rounds with the good old .303, SLR, the insas and variants of ak. Thanks for clarifying the difference between the vz58 and the ak. Some of my notions stand corrected. Thank you. The base of the discussion was insas rifle /5.56 vs the ak platform 7.62 and I simply said that I have spoken to few jawans and officers who are my friend and few because of some "sarkari" connections they all have reposed faith on the Kalashnikov or 7.62 caliber over insas 5.56.
hey i have no problem with 7.62x39. I dont have a problem with 5.56 either. I think there were better options out there other than an Ak. I would have preferred if the army thought of the future and bought a modular rifle that could be upgraded in the future.
 

Thundering13th

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Sorry to bother you one last time sir, trust me it's the last time.

The expected range of 9mm pistol is 50m, which is pretty low. And that of .50 BMG is 1500m, a decent one.
So the question is why haven't everyone replaced their 9mm pistols with .50 BMG pistols?

Yaa, I'm again being technical.
Ok, this one's good.
Which is better, a saw or a hammer?

If you have understood what I'm trying to say then you probably know whether 5.56x45mm is better, or 7.62x39mm is.
Well I would again say I was talking about assault rifles per say although there were some digression. Well if you can can show me a 9mm assault rifle and a .50 cal assault rifle I will say replace the 9mm with .50 cal. The point is 9mm handgun and a 7.62 mm handgun what would you choose if you want to cause max damage? Time and again I said all your knowledge about 5.56 being a better round is dismissed by the army when it comes to ARs. So instead of proving me wrong and saying that I could fire a weapon because of sarkari connections which is true and I will continue to use my connections aakhir democracy hai. Summing up I want to say is again " out of all the people I have spoken to in active service one thing is clear they prefer ak 7.62 more than insas 5.56 any day.Thats all. If you have more info on ballistics I would recommend please forward these notes to the army coz they want more aks instead of the ofb junk insas 5.56.
 

Lonewarrior

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hey i have no problem with 7.62x39. I dont have a problem with 5.56 either. I think there were better options out there other than an Ak. I would have preferred if the army thought of the future and bought a modular rifle that could be upgraded in the future.
That's so narrow minded thinking. How can you even suggest this kind of injustice to MoD and DAC and those high ranking Generals??

1. An excellent "future proof" rifle that can serve for say 30 years will fetch you a single commission in next 30 years.

2. A rifle that's decent in current timeframe, but will need a replacement after 20 years will fetch you two times the commission (and that too inflation adjusted 😅 ) in next 30 years.

Now which one's better?
 

Thundering13th

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That's so narrow minded thinking. How can you even suggest this kind of injustice to MoD and DAC and those high ranking Generals??

1. An excellent "future proof" rifle that can serve for say 30 years will fetch you a single commission in next 30 years.

2. A rifle that's decent in current timeframe, but will need a replacement after 20 years will fetch you two times the commission (and that too inflation adjusted 😅 ) in next 30 years.

Now which one's better?
I would say a rifle which does its job IE to kill the enemy and not to injure him so that more men are needed to evacuate the person and will subsequently reduce the enemy strength. That argument is sorry to say pure bull shit. At age your job is to kill enemy not worry about their logistics special when you are in an inf unit. Coming to commissions and corruptions I never said the bureaucracy is not corrupt. Corruptions and favoritism is a old practice in army although not in the scale of civil servants but let's be honest COs indulge in gold racketeering in mizoram, personally ai have seen soldiers upto jco ranks selling diesel from their trucks to earn profit in tinsukia dist. Col using entire ghatak platoon as rop so that their kids can go to a top notch school. So let's not talk about corruption. The entire country incl u and me are corrupted let alone the army. Sorry to digress.
 

WolfPack86

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Indian Army hunts for new carbines
NEW DELHI — The Indian Army has issued a global request for information procure 200,000 5.56mm close-quarter battle carbines at a cost of about $400 million under the Buy & Make India category. The total order is estimated to increase to 500,000 if the requirement of the domestic paramilitary forces is also taken into account.

Efforts to acquire the CQB carbines since 2008 have not yielded any result, and the carbines developed by the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organization, or DRDO, and the Ordnance Factory Board, or OFB, have not been accepted by the Indian Army, according to a senior Indian Ministry of Defence.


The formal tender — expected to be issued in the next six months — will seek a transfer of technology for the carbines to be license produced in India under a partnership with domestic defense companies.




Several overseas equipment manufacturers — including Beretta of Italy, FN FAL of Belgium, Heckler & Koch of Germany, Colt's Manufacturing Company of the United States, and Sig Sauer of Switzerland — are likely to tie up with Indian defense companies such as private sector firms Mahindra Defence, Larsen & Toubro, Bharat Forge and Reliance Defence.

After Israel Weapon Industries, or IWI, emerged as the single vendor in the global tender from 2011 for the procurement of 44,618 carbines along with 33.6 million rounds of ammunition, the tender was canceled, paving the way for the fresh RFI. Four contenders — IWI, Beretta ,Colt's and Sig Sauer — were in the race, but only IWI emerged as the winner because the other contenders could not meet the qualitative requirements pertaining to night vision mounting, an Indian Army official said.

Meanwhile, "DRDO and OFB have been trying to develop various small arms, including carbines, but none of them have passed through test and evaluation criteria," said Bhupinder Yadav, a defense analyst and retired Indian Army major general. "Amogh 5.56mm carbine, specially designed and developed for CQB, was rejected by Army on its first trial."

The latest carbine to be developed by DRDO and OFB, the 5.56mm Excalibur, has been rejected by the Army's special forces. "The main obstacle was loud sound and huge muzzle flash, which was undesirable," Yadav noted.


The 5.56mm MINSAS is the homemade carbine to most closely reach acceptance. "The Army has asked to do some improvements in this on two-pin disassembly, quick-fitting suppressor and polymer magazines. Once these things are taken care of, the weapon would be induced," Yadav said.

Meanwhile, domestic private sector defense major Punj Lloyd as well as IWI have jointly set up a manufacturing facility in India to produce small arms, including 5.56x30mm CQB carbines.

Some of the requirements of the carbines listed in the RFI include an effective range of at least 200 meters; a weight less than 3 kilograms; a modular design; and "luminous tipped integrated flip up open sight, reflex sight and visible and invisible laser-spot designator," the Army official noted.


The Indian Army has been without a carbine since 2010 when it removed from service the license-produced 9mm British Sterling 1A1 submachine gun.
 

ManhattanProject

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That's so narrow minded thinking. How can you even suggest this kind of injustice to MoD and DAC and those high ranking Generals??

1. An excellent "future proof" rifle that can serve for say 30 years will fetch you a single commission in next 30 years.

2. A rifle that's decent in current timeframe, but will need a replacement after 20 years will fetch you two times the commission (and that too inflation adjusted 😅 ) in next 30 years.

Now which one's better?
option 2
 

WolfPack86

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Thales, Kalyani team up for Indian carbine requirement
Thales Australia and India’s Kalyani Group have teamed up to meet a long-delayed Indian Army requirement to procure close-quarter battle (CQB) carbines.


The partnership was confirmed on 9 April by the Australian Department of Defence (DoD), which said the two companies would look to win the contract with Thales Australia’s F90CQB 5.56 mm assault rifle, a short-barrelled variant of the F90 rifle in service with the Australian Defence Force (ADF).



If the joint bid is successful, Thales Australia will manufacture the rifle in India in partnership with the Kalyani Group, with delivery of the carbines taking place over five years. The DoD said the Indian Army programme featured the acquisition of 350,000 rifles. The partnership also features Thales Australia transfers of technologies and know-how to the Indian company.


In a press release on 8 April, Thales said it would deliver technologies to Kalyani enabling the partnership to “design and develop” weapons systems in India. Thales said these systems would include variants of the F90 rifle and that the partnership would bid for firearms contracts in India and export markets.


Kalyani operates two defence subsidiaries in India: Kalyani Strategic Systems Limited (KSSL) and Bharat Forge Limited (BFL). Both have experience in producing ammunition, firearms, and related components. However, the subsidiaries have also outlined an intention to expand capabilities through partnerships with foreign contractors.


To this end, both KSSL and BFL have formed joint ventures and established partnership arrangements with several foreign companies in recent years including Rafael Advanced Defense Systems, Saab, Israel Aerospace Industries, Elbit System, and Safran.
 

Flying Dagger

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Thales, Kalyani team up for Indian carbine requirement
Thales Australia and India’s Kalyani Group have teamed up to meet a long-delayed Indian Army requirement to procure close-quarter battle (CQB) carbines.


The partnership was confirmed on 9 April by the Australian Department of Defence (DoD), which said the two companies would look to win the contract with Thales Australia’s F90CQB 5.56 mm assault rifle, a short-barrelled variant of the F90 rifle in service with the Australian Defence Force (ADF).



If the joint bid is successful, Thales Australia will manufacture the rifle in India in partnership with the Kalyani Group, with delivery of the carbines taking place over five years. The DoD said the Indian Army programme featured the acquisition of 350,000 rifles. The partnership also features Thales Australia transfers of technologies and know-how to the Indian company.


In a press release on 8 April, Thales said it would deliver technologies to Kalyani enabling the partnership to “design and develop” weapons systems in India. Thales said these systems would include variants of the F90 rifle and that the partnership would bid for firearms contracts in India and export markets.


Kalyani operates two defence subsidiaries in India: Kalyani Strategic Systems Limited (KSSL) and Bharat Forge Limited (BFL). Both have experience in producing ammunition, firearms, and related components. However, the subsidiaries have also outlined an intention to expand capabilities through partnerships with foreign contractors.


To this end, both KSSL and BFL have formed joint ventures and established partnership arrangements with several foreign companies in recent years including Rafael Advanced Defense Systems, Saab, Israel Aerospace Industries, Elbit System, and Safran.
It is derived from Steyr AUG and can fire 7.62*35 mm 5.56 NATO standard and 9*19 mm round .

A Bullpup rifle / carbine able to fire AK round / 5.56 NATO or new 6.8 like MCIWS with change of barrel is the best solution to look forward to.

Finally a potential good deal with Kalyani in picture now.
 

Lonewarrior

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Why the heck is everyone digging up prehistoric news articles!?
You weren't aware?

1. Thales - Kalyani JV for F90, April 2019.
2. Thales - MKU JV for optronics and F90, April 2018.
3. Caracal - MKU JV for assault rifles, April 2018.
4. IWI - Punj Lloyd JV for small arms, May 2017.
5. Interestingly they understood what's going to happen and sold the unit to Adani Defence. IWI - Adani JV for small arms, Jan 2020.
6. Taurus - Jindal JV for small arms, Jan 2020.
7. Mahindra had also signed a JV for assault rifle, but there isn't much detail.
8. LMT - SSS Defense JV for small arms. Though now they prefer simply buying off-the-shelf MDT products.

Don't get excited and start fapping whenever you hear a X company has signed JV with Y firm. Most of the time they just dine in a 5 star hotel and sign a MoU on an A4 sheet, that's it.
And the MoU says, if the product is selected then it will be manufactured in JV.

Think logically, why will a company make guns in India when civilian market is nonexistent?
 

Flying Dagger

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That's so narrow minded thinking. How can you even suggest this kind of injustice to MoD and DAC and those high ranking Generals??

1. An excellent "future proof" rifle that can serve for say 30 years will fetch you a single commission in next 30 years.

2. A rifle that's decent in current timeframe, but will need a replacement after 20 years will fetch you two times the commission (and that too inflation adjusted 😅 ) in next 30 years.

Now which one's better?
One of the most funny thing abt these deals are they get to visit the countries where the manufacturers are located spending millions just for testing them out.

We already have all the Israeli rifles in our inventory but we had to go and visit Israel to check them out.

Same with UAE Australia USA etc. A team of 9-10 guys went there for free holidays.

It's like watching Office Office.
 

Lonewarrior

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One of the most funny thing abt these deals are they get to visit the countries where the manufacturers are located spending millions just for testing them out.

We already have all the Israeli rifles in our inventory but we had to go and visit Israel to check them out.

Same with UAE Australia USA etc. A team of 9-10 guys went there for free holidays.

It's like watching Office Office.
Free holidays!?
Then I guess you're still a noob

commodore-sukhjinder-singh-230_040111085313.jpg
 

Lonewarrior

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They will punish niggas for sexual misconuct but won't sack officer's who deliberately take money for lobbying.
Fucked up mate.
His luck betrayed him, that's all.
But taking money to buy Victrix Scorpio or MX4 Vs inflating price of a carrier by almost a billion dollars; he was quite a big fish.

Btw, just out of curiosity, are you P. M.?
 

Suryavanshi

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His luck betrayed him, that's all.
But taking money to buy Victrix Scorpio or MX4 Vs inflating price of a carrier by almost a billion dollars; he was quite a big fish.
What is their payments process?
Any Digital transaction will most likely be tracked.
Btw, just out of curiosity, are you P. M.?
???
 

Lonewarrior

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What is their payments process?
Any Digital transaction will most likely be tracked.

???
They usually use a long and complex chain of shell or offshore companies to both make and receive the payment.

Btw, just out of curiosity, are you P. M.?
The initials of your name. I thought you are him. Maybe I'm just hallucinating.
 

Lonewarrior

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who is he? is he a army guy? or it was just a joke ?
He is Commodore Sukhjindar Singh. He was the incharge of INS Vikramaditya's refit in Russia.

Officially he is accused of "sexual misconducts" by the navy.

Unofficially he is accused of being honeytrapped by Russian agents and then manipulated to increase the cost of refits by almost a billion dollars.
 

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