INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[Lonewarrior]

What's the point of having the same old debate over and over!?

1. 7.62x51mm, because we were being overmatched on western front by Pakistani G3s.
Reorder of SIGs because we never anticipated an engagement on Eastern front, but now here we are. With 7.62x51mm we will have the overmatch capability.

2. No matter what armchair experts claim "as of now" 5.56x45mm rounds are best for infantry combat. Indeed it has its cons and there are numerous debates on this, but until there is a 6.XXmm round, it's quite good. So having it isn't a bad choice or outdated idea.

3. The only place where SCHV rounds suck, is stopping power and terminal ballistics in 100-150m range. Middle East is the perfect example, Al-Qaida fighters kept firing even after a full clip was dumped in there torso. This single event caused the development of new exotic rounds like Blackout.
In our scenario, the majority of engagements happening are CI/CT. And 7.62x39mm is a nasty round in CQC range. That's why AKs and Vz.s are needed.

4. Is 7.62x39mm and AK-103M the best?
Most probably no. 7.62x39mm round's performance drops drastically as soon as you increase the engagement range. That's why the country which developed this round soon adapted 5.45x39mm to counter its shortcomings.
The decision of having 7 lakh AKs is more of a diplomatic step than tactical.
The argument of giving 7.62x39mm to secondary troops and 5.56x45/7.62x51mm to frontline troops is vague. 7.62x39mm is good only for troops engaged in CI/CT, state police and CAPFs.

5. A better solution?
May be 6.8mm SPC II or 6.5 Grendal in place of 5.56x45mm and 7.62x39mm. But it's been long since we buried that dream together with our ambitious MCIWS.

6. Is INSAS the worst rifle humankind has ever seen? No; it definitely used to be.
The shortcomings of INSAS, that we are reminded time and time by our AnalYsts have been rectified. If even the slightest bit of attention is given to INSAS 1C, it can go head to head with the AK-103M we are getting.

7. Not related to this.
For years we had the Soviet doctrine of attaching DMRs with infantry and keeping snipers only for Spec-Ops. Things changed when Pakis started fielding Arctic Warfares for cross border firing. That's when we started thinking seriously about snipers and following the western doctrine.


Indeed it's a logistical nightmare, but more or less you can justify almost everything. Though there is no denial that there are some questionable decisions.

 

[Thundering13th]

What's the point of having the same old debate over and over!?

1. 7.62x51mm, because we were being overmatched on western front by Pakistani G3s.
Reorder of SIGs because we never anticipated an engagement on Eastern front, but now here we are. With 7.62x51mm we will have the overmatch capability.

2. No matter what armchair experts claim "as of now" 5.56x45mm rounds are best for infantry combat. Indeed it has its cons and there are numerous debates on this, but until there is a 6.XXmm round, it's quite good. So having it isn't a bad choice or outdated idea.

3. The only place where SCHV rounds suck, is stopping power and terminal ballistics in 100-150m range. Middle East is the perfect example, Al-Qaida fighters kept firing even after a full clip was dumped in there torso. This single event caused the development of new exotic rounds like Blackout.
In our scenario, the majority of engagements happening are CI/CT. And 7.62x39mm is a nasty round in CQC range. That's why AKs and Vz.s are needed.

4. Is 7.62x39mm and AK-103M the best?
Most probably no. 7.62x39mm round's performance drops drastically as soon as you increase the engagement range. That's why the country which developed this round soon adapted 5.45x39mm to counter its shortcomings.
The decision of having 7 lakh AKs is more of a diplomatic step than tactical.
The argument of giving 7.62x39mm to secondary troops and 5.56x45/7.62x51mm to frontline troops is vague. 7.62x39mm is good only for troops engaged in CI/CT, state police and CAPFs.

5. A better solution?
May be 6.8mm SPC II or 6.5 Grendal in place of 5.56x45mm and 7.62x39mm. But it's been long since we buried that dream together with our ambitious MCIWS.

6. Is INSAS the worst rifle humankind has ever seen? No; it definitely used to be.
The shortcomings of INSAS, that we are reminded time and time by our AnalYsts have been rectified. If even the slightest bit of attention is given to INSAS 1C, it can go head to head with the AK-103M we are getting.

7. Not related to this.
For years we had the Soviet doctrine of attaching DMRs with infantry and keeping snipers only for Spec-Ops. Things changed when Pakis started fielding Arctic Warfares for cross border firing. That's when we started thinking seriously about snipers and following the western doctrine.


Indeed it's a logistical nightmare, but more or less you can justify almost everything. Though there is no denial that there are some questionable decisions.

If you are on a patrol and you are scout no 1
Thik hai. You take a turn and there is an IED explosion s1 s2 gone. May be beheaded. There is a volley of fire. Piche wala will fire indiscriminate so that we can get some relief. I being a civilian fired the insas IB and ic the auto version. Accuracy is lajawaa with in 400 m. After 400 m the round dies down and goes ram bharose. The firepower is pathetic. These are ground facts. Ak is effective within 300 m. Insas is nowhere near it. Rest of your points will read and then comment. But when it comes to insas rifle I have done quite a few nimbu nichor.

 

[Lonewarrior]

If you are on a patrol and you are scout no 1
Thik hai. You take a turn and there is an IED explosion s1 s2 gone. May be beheaded. There is a volley of fire. Piche wala will fire indiscriminate so that we can get some relief. I being a civilian fired the insas IB and ic the auto version. Accuracy is lajawaa with in 400 m. After 400 m the round dies down and goes ram bharose. The firepower is pathetic. These are ground facts. Ak is effective within 300 m. Insas is nowhere near it. Rest of your points will read and then comment. But when it comes to insas rifle I have done quite a few nimbu nichor.

Well I completely agree on your points.
But don't you think these are obvious facts given INSAS shoots a 3.5/4gm bullet at 850-990m/s and 8gm bullet at 730m/s from a Kalash. INSAS is bound to have a flatter trajectory, longer range and better penetration compared to AK; more stopping power and better terminal ballistics in case of AK.


Sure, take your time.
I hoping to get corrected.

 

[utubekhiladi]

Bro I understand the points you make. Touch your heart and say if you are leading a platoon and say you are S1. Would you want a Kalashnikov or an insas?

If you have asked me this question yesterday, i would have said "Insas". since you are asking me today, i would say neither.

i would pick some other modern rifle that can fire standard 5.56 fmj 62> gr

The rifle is very accurate no doubts about that. But my buddies in AR units complained of tangoes not going down even after a burst from insas

it really depends on where you hit your target and what type of ammunition is being used. what kind of vest the tangos have, the distance etc, i am sure your buddies in the unit already knows about this.
if they are wearing level 3/4 vest with Armour inserts and if you are hit by insas 5.56 fmj, (standard issue of IA), they are still going down.

the force from the single bullet may not penetrate vest and may not kill the enemy. but the enemy will be out of commission. for example, if hit on the chest, the vest may stop the bullet but the impact will leave painful rib fractures, or internal bleeding or organ failure etc if hit anywhere else.

and only sunny deol in bollywood can continue fighting after rib fracture, or internal organ injuries.

 

[utubekhiladi]

Well I completely agree on your points.
But don't you think these are obvious facts given INSAS shoots a 3.5/4gm bullet at 850-990m/s and 8gm bullet at 730m/s from a Kalash. INSAS is bound to have a flatter trajectory, longer range and better penetration compared to AK; more stopping power and better terminal ballistics in case of AK.


Sure, take your time.
I hoping to get corrected.

right, i forgot that IA follows grams nomenclature. after staying in states, i am now used to talk in grains

 

[Lonewarrior]

right, i forgot that IA follows grams nomenclature. after staying in states, i am now used to talk in grains

You bloody imperialist.....

 

[Emperor Kalki]

I don't know if this sounds stupid, but ......uh,.....here i go...
when i look at the g2 it seems the handguard on that is bigger to accomodate the gas block and piston at that height from the barrel.....i.e the gap b/w gas block/piston and barrel inside the handguard would need to be more than that of the ones we bought.....just sayin'
View attachment 53009View attachment 53010

Feels the same for upper receivers if they are compared.....g 2 seemingly has that "extension" which is unseen in our version...

 

[Lonewarrior]

Feels the same for upper receivers if they are compared.....g 2 seemingly has that "extension" which is unseen in our version...

I still stand on my point.
The upper receiver on the piston operated SIG 716G2 seems way taller than the one we are using. A taller receiver generally means extra space to accommodate the redesigned piston operated bolt carrier.

There is nothing wrong in having a direct impingement AR. A DI AR typically has the best recoil management of all available types. And almost all the fouling related complaints about DI ARs circulating over internet are bullshit. DI or Short Stroke, you will have to clean your rifle after same amount of rounds. Difference is, you will clean bolt in one and gas block in other.

The problem is how a same mistake keeps on going on and on in Indian defence circles.

A perfect example of this is Scorpio.
For 99% of people in India we bought Scorpio TGT from Victrix Armament, but the fact is we actually bought Scorpio MilLE.

 

[operatorgrumby]

Feels the same for upper receivers if they are compared.....g 2 seemingly has that "extension" which is unseen in our version...

Seems like the first one with a 16" barrel have a smaller Hybrid M-Lok rail while the second one with the indian soldier have a full length M-Lok Handguard.
May be that's why we can't see the elongated gas block in the second picture.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Seems like the first one with a 16" barrel have a smaller Hybrid M-Lok rail while the second one with the indian soldier have a full length M-Lok Handguard.
May be that's why we can't see the elongated gas block in the second picture.

And how will you have a TALLER gas block inside a SLIMMER handguard??

 

[Emperor Kalki]

I still stand on my point.
The upper receiver on the piston operated SIG 716G2 seems way taller than the one we are using. A taller receiver generally means extra space to accommodate the redesigned piston operated bolt carrier.

Exactly.....

There is nothing wrong in having a direct impingement AR. A DI AR typically has the best recoil management of all available types. And almost all the fouling related complaints about DI ARs circulating over internet are bullshit. DI or Short Stroke, you will have to clean your rifle after same amount of rounds. Difference is, you will clean bolt in one and gas block in other.

Yes, as long as opening upper receiver or removing bolt is not hard, cleaning is not a problem and AFAIK it always has been easy in AR style rifles

A perfect example of this is Scorpio.
For 99% of people in India we brought Scorpio TGT from Victrix Armament, but the fact is we actually bought Scorpio MilLE.

Honestly, didn't know that....so thnx...

 

[Lonewarrior]

Honestly, didn't know that....so thnx...

That was the whole point of bringing that up

 

[SanjeevM]

Indian Weapon Systems: Vidhwansak AMR Anti-Materiel Rifle

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

INSAS with camo cover & Zeiss RDS

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

INSAS LMG being used BY RR in CT Ops

 

[Thundering13th]

Well I completely agree on your points.
But don't you think these are obvious facts given INSAS shoots a 3.5/4gm bullet at 850-990m/s and 8gm bullet at 730m/s from a Kalash. INSAS is bound to have a flatter trajectory, longer range and better penetration compared to AK; more stopping power and better terminal ballistics in case of AK.


Sure, take your time.
I hoping to get corrected.

I have rudimentary knowledge about ballistics next to nothing. Your points are factual and thanks for the knowledge but I still maintain that 7.62 is a better round. I understand its heavier and the load carrying capacity of a soldier and 5.56 is lighter. I dont want to start a 5.56 vs 7.62 debate I was more concerned with the insas rifle per say. The rifles has a jamming issue. Ask any one who has fired the rifle, I am not sure about the latest variants if there are any but the good old infantry rifle. It jams a lot even the lmg. Where as Kalashnikov is a trusted platform. There is a reason why army is going back to the 7.62 round.

 

[Thundering13th]

It's an old video but this lmg can be worked upon. I guess we have many private players who can modify it according to our needs.

 

[another_armchair]

I have rudimentary knowledge about ballistics next to nothing. Your points are factual and thanks for the knowledge but I still maintain that 7.62 is a better round. I understand its heavier and the load carrying capacity of a soldier and 5.56 is lighter. I dont want to start a 5.56 vs 7.62 debate I was more concerned with the insas rifle per say. The rifles has a jamming issue. Ask any one who has fired the rifle, I am not sure about the latest variants if there are any but the good old infantry rifle. It jams a lot even the lmg. Where as Kalashnikov is a trusted platform. There is a reason why army is going back to the 7.62 round.

From what I know, the issue is not with the round but with the reliability of the INSAS rifle.

Better ask those who have fired the weapon in action(Army, Paramil, CAPFs) whether in 3 round burst mode or full auto(LMG), particularly so in action. Not fanboy shoots at sarkaari range thanks to some 'connections'.
It is far from reliable in burst and full auto mode. Even in single shot mode, rapid firing leads to stoppages.

It is a very poor weapon in COIN role. If you are on top of a building with a 360 degree view and have the luxury of firing 2-3 rounds every 10-20 seconds at targets beyond 150-200 metres away, you should be able to hold your ground.

 

[Thundering13th]

From what I know, the issue is not with the round but with the reliability of the INSAS rifle.

Better ask those who have fired the weapon in action(Army, Paramil, CAPFs) whether in 3 round burst mode or full auto(LMG), particularly so in action. Not fanboy shoots at sarkaari range thanks to some 'connections'.
It is far from reliable in burst and full auto mode. Even in single shot mode, rapid firing leads to stoppages.

It is a very poor weapon in COIN role. If you are on top of a building with a 360 degree view and have the luxury of firing 2-3 rounds every 10-20 seconds at targets beyond 150-200 metres away, you should be able to hold your ground.

If you have asked me this question yesterday, i would have said "Insas". since you are asking me today, i would say neither.

i would pick some other modern rifle that can fire standard 5.56 fmj 62> gr



it really depends on where you hit your target and what type of ammunition is being used. what kind of vest the tangos have, the distance etc, i am sure your buddies in the unit already knows about this.
if they are wearing level 3/4 vest with Armour inserts and if you are hit by insas 5.56 fmj, (standard issue of IA), they are still going down.

the force from the single bullet may not penetrate vest and may not kill the enemy. but the enemy will be out of commission. for example, if hit on the chest, the vest may stop the bullet but the impact will leave painful rib fractures, or internal bleeding or organ failure etc if hit anywhere else.

and only sunny deol in bollywood can continue fighting after rib fracture, or internal organ injuries.

Well guys with some connection who can fire in sarkari ranges might be fanboys. But the army seems to disagree with your points. It's quite clear that they want the rifle replaced with something which has a higher caliber. Well I can give you a first hand experience of an encounter or rather an ambush that happened between jairampur and jagun in 2017 where two jawans of AR were KIA. The unit was 13AR. Due to some connections I was able to speak to the CO of the unit. I asked him the same thing. He told me none of our qrts carry an insas. You can draw your conclusions from that.

 

[Thundering13th]

If you have asked me this question yesterday, i would have said "Insas". since you are asking me today, i would say neither.

i would pick some other modern rifle that can fire standard 5.56 fmj 62> gr



it really depends on where you hit your target and what type of ammunition is being used. what kind of vest the tangos have, the distance etc, i am sure your buddies in the unit already knows about this.
if they are wearing level 3/4 vest with Armour inserts and if you are hit by insas 5.56 fmj, (standard issue of IA), they are still going down.

the force from the single bullet may not penetrate vest and may not kill the enemy. but the enemy will be out of commission. for example, if hit on the chest, the vest may stop the bullet but the impact will leave painful rib fractures, or internal bleeding or organ failure etc if hit anywhere else.

and only sunny deol in bollywood can continue fighting after rib fracture, or internal organ injuries.

Well going by your logic if a single 5.56 round can leave a soldier/tango any one ruptured than gren yogendra singh who took 17 bullets must me lying than based on what he did after that.