INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[Lonewarrior]

is this the best "Sniper rifle" that OFB can produce?

Joking aside, that sniper rifle is quite good for its intended customer, i.e., police.
The only thing that matters in a good precision rifle is its action, barrel and trigger. Followed by a stock or chassis with good ergonomics.
This rifle is a derivative of IOF's .30-06 sporting rifle, which itself is a copy of Sauer 202. So there isn't any IOF level innovation going on in trigger or action; which is a very assuring fact.
The stock is a slightly modified Sauer 404 Sports stock. Considering the vertical pistol grip and the cheek piece, this should have a decent amount of ergonomics.
Only tweaks required are a good polymer alternative in place of whatever they are using in the name of stock. A better rail to accommodate NVs and good quality control (obviously the most important part as an IOF is involved). Otherwise it's an "adequate" rifle.

And as for your question, no they can definitely make better rifles.

Indeed far behind other world class rifles, but still quite good.

 

[Mindrapper]

Joking aside, that sniper rifle is quite good for its intended customer, i.e., police.
The only thing that matters in a good precision rifle is its action, barrel and trigger. Followed by a stock or chassis with good ergonomics.
This rifle is a derivative of IOF's .30-06 sporting rifle, which itself is a copy of Sauer 202. So there isn't any IOF level innovation going on in trigger or action; which is a very assuring fact.
The stock is a slightly modified Sauer 404 Sports stock. Considering the vertical pistol grip and the cheek piece, this should have a decent amount of ergonomics.
Only tweaks required are a good polymer alternative in place of whatever they are using in the name of stock. A better rail to accommodate NVs and good quality control (obviously the most important part as an IOF is involved). Otherwise it's an "adequate" rifle.

And as for your question, no they can definitely make better rifles.View attachment 52494Indeed far behind other world class rifles, but still quite good.

Is it just me? or is there anyone excited that OFB is developing a 7.62 mm cannon.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Is it just me? or is there anyone excited that OFB is developing a 7.62 mm cannon.

7.62mm cannon!?
Didn't get that.

 

[Raj Malhotra]

The Sniper rifle 7.62x51 has Accuracy less than 1 MOA and Range of 800m. Its world standard. IIRC US Army requires accuracy of 1.5MOA for sniper rifles.

 

[Raj Malhotra]

Even DRDO knew in 2000 only that INSAS design is outdated. Inspite of their repeated requests, they were only allowed in 2007 to start MCIWS project.

Anyhow INSAS is outdated. But we have :-

1. P-72 from SSS
2. Offers from Indra
3. MCIWS from DRDO
4. 5.56X45 Carbine (new design based on SIG) from OFB

5. INSAS 1C
6. Ghatak & 7. Trichy AK both in 7.62x39

 

[Lonewarrior]

The Sniper rifle 7.62x51 has Accuracy less than 1 MOA and Range of 800m. Its world standard. IIRC US Army requires accuracy of 1.5MOA for sniper rifles.

There is a slight difference between "has" and "claims".
I'm not saying that it's crap just because it's an IOF product, but as far as I know the user reviews on .30-06 is not that great.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Even DRDO knew in 2000 only that INSAS design is outdated. Inspite of their repeated requests, they were only allowed in 2007 to start MCIWS project.

Anyhow INSAS is outdated. But we have :-

1. P-72 from SSS
2. Offers from Indra
3. MCIWS from DRDO
4. 5.56X45 Carbine (new design based on SIG) from OFB

5. INSAS 1C
6. Ghatak & 7. Trichy AK both in 7.62x39

1. Really!? You want me to blabber everything again.

2. Believe me, if something is even more dubious than SSS Defense then it's this 'thing'. The offer is not from INDRA, the rifle itself is called INDRA. We don't even know who makes them. They were displayed by a firm called "ASTR Defense" but in booth of VEM Technologies.
Isn't it weird that a company incorporated on 10th of September, 2019 and with a paid up capital of just 1 lakh comes up with such a refined assault rifle. But interestingly no one is allowed to thouch it.

3. INSAS 1C, MCIWS and Carbine are just self-competing products launched as a last ditch effort to save Indian small arms manufacturing's face. Sadly military is in no mood to buy an assault rifle in 5.56x45mm. For replacement of Sterlings we're already having competitions for a foreign design. And these rifles are not adequate enough to compete in international market.

4. Only rifles with true potential are Ghatak and TAR. They can cater a huge market of police forces and CAPF, and they are already doing that. Moreover they can also compete with Kalashnikov Concern and Arsenal in international markets.

 

[Mindrapper]

7.62mm cannon!?
Didn't get that.

Me neither. But I guess they are developing an air variant of their Machine Gun.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Me neither. But I guess they are developing an air variant of their Machine Gun.

If you are referring to pictures behind the sniper rifle, then no.
First of all it's not a cannon. Until you touch 20mm you remain in Heavy Machine Gun territory.
And secondly there is nothing to get excited about it. They just removed pistol grip and trigger from a standard Mag and added a solenoid, a 600-800 rupees modification. Usually done for coaxial tank machine guns.

BTW, MAG was designed in late 50s by FN Herstal, Belgium.

 

[Mindrapper]

If you are referring to pictures behind the sniper rifle, then no.
First of all it's not a cannon. Until you touch 20mm you remain in Heavy Machine Gun territory.
And secondly there is nothing to get excited about it. They just removed pistol grip and trigger from a standard Mag and added a solenoid, a 600-800 rupees modification. Usually done for coaxial tank machine guns.

BTW, MAG was designed in late 50s by FN Herstal, Belgium.

I am sorry, I couldn't convey my sarcasm in that post. OFB guys are building state of the art WW era technology.

 

[ManhattanProject]

The INSAS reflects on IAs tactics.

Watch US tactics in Afghanistan and then compare them to the ones U see in India.

The IA has the One bullet one kill rule i.e lay precises shots without wasting a single bullet. This be called precision fire.

The US army on the other hand believes in suppression fire tactics. If they get a rough idea about the position of the enemy they will rain bullets on them. Meanwhile each team has a sniper or at least a marksman.
the Marksman and Sniper lay precise shots on the enemy. They use suppression fire to cover for their enemies who either maneuver towards the enemy or seat themselves in a better position.
This is why US concentrates big on Marksman and sniper training.
If their is no scope for sniper then they blow the whole position with Javeline

Spoiler

Watch this video above.

The soldiers are suppressing the enemies meanwhile his buddy blows up the position with javelin.

The above method is not valid for CT ops in populated area but still I wanted to bring general perspective of tactics under view. Even we do the same in cross border attacks.

The INSAS was tailor made for Indian tactics three round bust fire reflects that.

ARs are made for american tactics with tolerance to high rate of fire per minute.

A 200000$ missile for a few jihadis in salwar and aks, Uncle Sam does not fuck around.

 

[Suryavanshi]

A 200000$ missile for a few jihadis in salwar and aks, Uncle Sam does not fuck around.

If a 200000$ missile saves the life of troops and blows up 10 momins than it is very cheap I'll say.
Say if by investing some 50 billion the US government ensures profit worth 2 trillion from an Afghan mine for 50 years than it is totaly worth it.

 

[Thundering13th]

I am a big fan of INSAS rifle, i have even called the rifle that won us the kargil many times. the rifle is cocktail of FN-FAL and AK47 design. this rifle made sense in the 90's but not any more.

personally, i still find that 5.56x45 FMJ 62gr is a still a better round compared to 7.62 of that AK round..
but INSAS is not the best rifle to fire 62gr round.

sadly, the time has come for INSAS and AK's Family
View attachment 52493

Have you fired an insas? If so how many rounds did you fire? Did you fire in single shot or burst mode? Bohut sari chize hai. Insas looks good but is useless and I repeat "useless" in cqb

 

[JBH22]

Have you fired an insas? If so how many rounds did you fire? Did you fire in single shot or burst mode? Bohut sari chize hai. Insas looks good but is useless and I repeat "useless" in cqb

The INSAS is derived from army requirements after transitioning from SLR. They wanted rifle that is used also for marches
As Gen VK Singh once said we sat on decision to transfer east German ak machinery to India during 1990s. Now same story repeating with ak, SIG, Caracal and locally made rifles

 

[Thundering13th]

The INSAS is derived from army requirements after transitioning from SLR. They wanted rifle that is used also for marches
As Gen VK Singh once said we sat on decision to transfer east German ak machinery to India during 1990s. Now same story repeating with ak, SIG, Caracal and locally made rifles

Ghatak AR is better than Insas 1b.

 

[Bhadra]

The INSAS reflects on IAs tactics.

Watch US tactics in Afghanistan and then compare them to the ones U see in India.

The IA has the One bullet one kill rule i.e lay precises shots without wasting a single bullet. This be called precision fire.

The US army on the other hand believes in suppression fire tactics. If they get a rough idea about the position of the enemy they will rain bullets on them. Meanwhile each team has a sniper or at least a marksman.
the Marksman and Sniper lay precise shots on the enemy. They use suppression fire to cover for their enemies who either maneuver towards the enemy or seat themselves in a better position.
This is why US concentrates big on Marksman and sniper training.
If their is no scope for sniper then they blow the whole position with Javeline

Spoiler

Watch this video above.

The soldiers are suppressing the enemies meanwhile his buddy blows up the position with javelin.

The above method is not valid for CT ops in populated area but still I wanted to bring general perspective of tactics under view. Even we do the same in cross border attacks.

The INSAS was tailor made for Indian tactics three round bust fire reflects that.

ARs are made for american tactics with tolerance to high rate of fire per minute.

Bhumihar Ji.
It is in fact contrary to what you say..
The basic infantry tactics is fire and move which means suppression of enemy by fire while making movement towards enemy and destroy enemy by close combat battle. One bullet one enemy is mainly applicable to rifle fire in defense.

5,56 as a caliber which merely .22 bird killing caliber was adopted i in accordance with as NATO doctrine of war fighting which stressed on preponderance of fire power. That meant higher volume of fire and more ammunition requirement. longer range which in turn meant lighter caliber. It was also felt that causing casualties on enemy rather than killing was more burdensome for logistics and support system of the enemy.

That is why INSAS had three round burst. more magazine capacity. a lighter rifle and longer range. The concept was essentially evolved for conventional operations.

What happened world over is that instead of fighting conventional war most of the Armies got involved in LICO basically against irregular forces which essentailly is a CQB battle. CQB battles needed higher volume of automatic fire and more kill probability. No one likes his adversary alive at ten meters away.
It is in this context that snippers also made a big comeback.

Thus the entire thrust changed to creating shock and awe in CQB battles. 7.62 X 45 emerged as a suitable caliber and AK the favored weapon for assault.

Since IA is engaged both in conventional operations as also CI/CT operations two calibers have been decided upon. AK -203 as weapons for CQB and personal weapon and 7.62 X 51 (Sig Saur) as a caliber for Rifles. LMG anf MMG for conventional operations.

Philosophy revolves around the ammunition caliber and not that much around weapon.

 

[utubekhiladi]

Have you fired an insas? If so how many rounds did you fire? Did you fire in single shot or burst mode? Bohut sari chize hai. Insas looks good but is useless and I repeat "useless" in cqb

yes, i have fired insas, 1000's of rounds in both semi nd burst modes.
like i mentioned in many earlier posts, insas is good rifle and its seen its hay days. but its now time to move on to better alternatives and new design.
too much action movies and video games makes you feel that such rifles are useless in close combat.

 

[another_armchair]

yes, i have fired insas, 1000's of rounds in both semi nd burst modes.
like i mentioned in many earlier posts, insas is good rifle and its seen its hay days. but its now time to move on to better alternatives and new design.
too much action movies and video games makes you feel that such rifles are useless in close combat.

Thousands of rounds in semi and burst mode?

You must be the envy of your company.

The rifle definitely deserves a Param Vir Chakra.

Given the average height of hill men, taking an INSAS for a room intervention would be so much fun.

Looks cool during an exercise but only someone spoilt for choices would carry an INSAS into CQB and room intervention.

 

[Thundering13th]

yes, i have fired insas, 1000's of rounds in both semi nd burst modes.
like i mentioned in many earlier posts, insas is good rifle and its seen its hay days. but its now time to move on to better alternatives and new design.
too much action movies and video games makes you feel that such rifles are useless in close combat.

Bro I understand the points you make. Touch your heart and say if you are leading a platoon and say you are S1. Would you want a Kalashnikov or an insas?

 

[Thundering13th]

Bro I understand the points you make. Touch your heart and say if you are leading a platoon and say you are S1. Would you want a Kalashnikov or an insas?

The rifle is very accurate no doubts about that. But my buddies in AR units complained of tangoes not going down even after a burst from insas