INS Vikramaditya (Adm Gorshkov) aircraft carrier

[cir]

Re: Chinese thermal bricks disrupted INS Vikramaditya Sea Trials

The lastest from the Russians is that Polish and British equipments are the culprits of the trial failures。

 

[cir]

Re: Chinese thermal bricks disrupted INS Vikramaditya Sea Trials

Soon the Indians will be so confused as to know whom is to blame for the latest blunder。

Go and check out Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin's Facebook。

The guy will tell you what the real causes of the failure are。

India needs be careful with its chosen suppliers。

 

[huaxia rox]

Re: Chinese thermal bricks disrupted INS Vikramaditya Sea Trials

lets 1st assume those so called fire clay bricks r indeed made in prc.......

1 u need specific data here........for example if our bricks can only work properly below 1000 C and russian engines go to 1100 C then surely our bricks would fail (which doesnt mean the quality of the bricks is problemetic)....and i think its highly possible that russians thought the engines can only go to 990 C and they bought the 1000 C PRC bricks but actually engines went to 1100 C and then bricks failed.......why i suppose so???coz russians surely would test the bricks to 1000 C but can they fully test the engines??in theory they can do the math but actually they dont know the real answer until they run the engines in full power.....of which the result i think has suprised them.....

2 on the oher hand i wish this thing is due to chinese hand.......u see....many projects that involve russia-india cooperation suffered engine problems.....T-50 GSLV Vikramaditya u name it........if all the projects failed becoz of chinese hand i say what a frigging good way to screw indians.........

 

[cir]

Re: Chinese thermal bricks disrupted INS Vikramaditya Sea Trials

Perhaps INS should consider sailing Vikramaditya to Dalian and taking up the dockside space left empty by PLAN Liaoning。

 

[tony4562]

Re: Chinese thermal bricks disrupted INS Vikramaditya Sea Trials

No its tell us, you are here to troll..

World cannot make such cheap products as China does, that is the problem..

I think you should stop acting like a know-it-all expert. Every time India gets exposed, usually on things the whole universe knows, you would come out angrily trying to defend it. What's for? What's the point of defending for example LCA, when even kids in the streets of Mogadishu know it is failure, proven beyond any doubts? All those images, specifications you throw around mean square nothing when the end product is worlds apart from the blueprints?

 

[trackwhack]

Re: Chinese thermal bricks disrupted INS Vikramaditya Sea Trials

Looks like the discussion hit a Chinese nerve.

 

[ice berg]

Re: Chinese thermal bricks disrupted INS Vikramaditya Sea Trials

Certainly, it is their ship...oh wait.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Chinese thermal bricks disrupted INS Vikramaditya Sea Trials

Well i can say that i am to some extend, And i intervene when trolls go crazy..

I dont think i need to reply the rest..

I think you should stop acting like a know-it-all expert. Every time India gets exposed, usually on things the whole universe knows, you would come out angrily trying to defend it. What's for? What's the point of defending for example LCA, when even kids in the streets of Mogadishu know it is failure, proven beyond any doubts? All those images, specifications you throw around mean square nothing when the end product is worlds apart from the blueprints?

 

[Kranthi]

I did not mean that s-300 is exclusively for aircraft.
I said we need it for engaging aircraft because barak-8 is good enough for missile defense for now but enemy aircraft usually will be atleast 100km away from the fleet so barak 8 cannot engage them where we need s-300. Not that s-300 cannot engage missiles. Having s-300 is a great advantage though

 

[Bheeshma]

The S-300 IMHO has very little to offer. The russians unloaded that junk to chinese and have moved to S-400/500. The chinese who have inducted a carrier with no air wing need it to defend the rust bucket Liakiong or whatever varyag is called now.

 

[Austin]

The key advantage of S-300FM even though its a 20 years old system ( counting even S-300PMU2 which is almost 15 years old ) is the sheer amount of energy it has and long legs , there isnt any missile that can do a Mach 6 even today , even aster-30 with booster does M 4.5.

It also has a decent ABM capability with ability to intercept a 1000km range missile and uses SAAG guidance.

The down size is you need big ship to load the missile in sufficient numbers , even the S-400 48N6 is a big missile though more powerful than S-300.

The smaller 9M96E/E1 does the same job as S-300 system though with lesser range and energy to its credit.

 

[latsar]

The damm boat is jinxed its better to forget it and think the money spent on it as a pay back to USSR for its help in 1971 war and ask for couple of N- subs to lease as compensation. Let the Russian repair the jinxed boat and keep it themselves. Meanwhile IN can look at Juan Carlos I(navantia) type LHDs can buy 2 to 3 of them.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

What is with whining ?

"We were expecting few glitches during the trials considering it is a huge project. However, the contract signed with the Russians cater for this and provides for 3-4 months of delay,"Indian Navy officials

defence eXpress: Snags during trials push back Gorshkov delivery date

 

[Bheeshma]

Nothing wrong with the boat. It is still better than the cavour or Juan carlos which are more in the class of light fleet carriers. They will need F-35 to have any sort of air wing. The Ship will be in IN hands in 2013 like the Chakra is with IN currently.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

----------------------------------------------

Special Thanks..

 

[Austin]

Rogozin: Vikramaditya Broke Down Due to Poland and British Equipment

During sea trials of aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya upgraded in Russia for Indian Navy, serious failures were found in some systems produced in Poland and Great Britain, said Russian vice premier Dmitry Rogozin.

"Some defects were revealed in aggregates delivered by Poland and Britain. But aircraft flight tests passed successfully", Rogozin posted on his Facebook page.

Earlier on, president of United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) Andrei Diachkov reported to Dmitry Rogozin on the situation around the ship. According to him, Chinese materials were used when assembling of boilers for the carrier. "The boilers were made on India's design. In Russian Navy, we use oil-fired boilers. But Indian partners wanted us to make boilers working on diesel fuel", reports Interfax citing Diachkov.

Answering Rogozin's question what materials were used for thermal insulation, Diachkov said that "fireclay bricks were made in China". "Unfortunately, Russia has lost production technology of that material", added the USC director.

As for him, boilers cannot work in full swing during dockside trials at the shipyard's mooring quay. "They were tested at 40% power", Diachkov said.

When the carrier reached full power for the first time at sea trials, fireproof brickwork in boiler furnaces was partially destructed, said the USC director.

"Alternatively disabling each boiler, we repaired the brickwork during sea trials, but nonetheless it broke again after next trial run at high-power modes", he noted.

Diachkov added that boiler installations used in Russian ships were insulated with asbestos boards; Indian party wanted this material to be excluded.

Trials of the aircraft carrier held in the White and the Barents seas revealed new defects, said Diachkov.

"There are some other broken down systems, including those purchased from NATO countries. They are three refrigerating machines, nitrogen generators and other equipment. Suppliers were offered by Indian side", Diachkov stressed.

He also pointed out that repair of INS Vikramaditya was planned to finish by May 2013.

 

[natarajan]

Our navy and goi(corruption) busy

 

[Kunal Biswas]

These reports are useless, Don't look into much into it..

Systems fail in trails, In this case Media is using such news for rating..

 

[Sridhar]

Vikramaditya: Why India must stay the course
Published September 24, 2012 | By admin

SOURCE: Rakesh Krishnan Simha / indrus.in

Yet another likely delay in dispatching the much-awaited aircraft carrier has caused tempers to flare back in India, but the problems aren't as grim as reported.It is a setback no doubt, but the "technical malfunction" experienced during INS Vikramaditya's high-speed trials in the Barents Sea is hardly a disaster. Some sections of the media have reacted as if the innards of the aircraft carrier have been blown to kingdom come and the ship is crippled. But what happened was that seven of the eight steam boilers in the carrier's power plant overheated, forcing the Russian-Indian crew to call off the trials.



Indians collectively threw their hands up in exasperation. You can't blame them. INS Vikramaditya is the country's most prestigious acquisition – the public has been waiting a long time for this majestic ship to sail into home waters. They have been let down repeatedly since 2005, the year Russia started refurbishing the old carrier, formerly known as Admiral Gorshkov.



However, casual observers have missed the point that the overheating was discovered during trials. That's what trials are for – to identify and remove such glitches. And no, unlike what some 'experts' have been suggesting, fixing the problem won't require cutting open the ship. Do they really think each time there is engine trouble the navy has to cut open its ships?



Despite two boiler blowouts during its Red Navy days, Vikramaditya's problems aren't insurmountable. Because the ship's propulsion system is brand new, the problem is most likely with the integration of the boilers. The sea trials have been under way for several months off the north coast of the Barents Sea, and in all other respects the ship appears to be in working order. Two months ago the carrier experienced its first landing, by a MiG-29K.



In fact, some of the Indian crew has been working on the Vikramaditya for over a year, and currently most of the other 1,250 crew are present. Information trickling in from them suggests the first reports exaggerated the problem, and that the ship is sailing on its own power. The overheating seems to be happening at high speeds.



It's complicated




The problems being faced by Russia and India are not unique. The US Naval War College says development of aircraft carriers is a risky, costly business, and accidents are highly likely. A former US naval aviator, Captain Robert C. Rubel, notes, "Between 1949, when jets started being deployed in large numbers by the Navy, and 1988, when the combined Navy/Marine Corps accident rate was reduced to the levels already achieved by the US Air Force, the naval services lost almost 12,000 aircraft and 8,500 air crew. In 1954 alone, the Navy and Marines lost 776 aircraft and 535 crewmen, and carrier-based tactical aviation suffered higher proportionate losses than the naval services as a whole."



These losses are of truly frightening proportions but they are also a pointer to the reality of naval aviation – a moving airfield is unlike anything else in the world of weapons. India and Russia have barely scratched the surface of carrier construction. The hiccups with the Vikramaditya are, therefore, part of a steep learning curving.



Hard to get


An inevitable reaction to the boiler blowout will be the demand that Russia return the money and keep its boat. That would be highly unwise because India is down to half a carrier currently and new aircraft carriers are not available off the shelf. This is another unique problem with these massive ships – no country makes carriers to market, so basically India cannot order one for love or money.



Those describing the Vikramaditya as an expensive freebie forget that India's first two aircraft carriers, INS Vikrant and INS Viraat, were also 'gifts' from Britain. In the 1980s, the Indian Navy inducted 30 British Sea Harriers for Viraat. More than half were lost to crashes, and the jets were grounded in August 2009 after a Harrier crashed in Goa, killing the pilot. Viraat, described as a "toothless tiger" has spent most of its life in dock, and only the ingenuity of Indian engineers has prolonged its life.



So right now India is sailing up the Indian Ocean without a paddle. The navy's 40,000-ton carrier being built at Cochin Shipyard will not be ready before 2017. It is, therefore, urgent that India stay the course on Vikramaditya. A year's delay won't hurt when we have waited seven.



The Indian Navy needs at least three aircraft carriers to ensure that two always remain active – one each for the eastern and western seaboards – when the third is undergoing repairs.



Meanwhile, China, which has acquired aircraft carriers from Russia and Ukraine, has publicised its plan to develop three task forces, to patrol the areas of Japan and Korea, the western Pacific, and the Malacca Strait and Indian Ocean region.



Deeper relationship


The carrier is not a one-off thing between India and Russia. In April 2012, a stealth frigate, the INS Teg, was commissioned in Russia. It will be followed by two more such stealth ships, to be inducted early next year. The 125 meter frigate displaces 4,000 tons and includes the BrahMos surface-to-surface missile system. The Navy says the ship is "well suited to undertake a broad spectrum of maritime missions".



The lease of the nuclear powered submarine Nerpa and Russia's not-so-secret help with the development of India's own nuclear submarine, Arihant, are pointers to the deep ties between the countries. Again, these are not off-the-shelf technologies and Russia is not sharing them with any other country.



However, the incident in the Barents Sea couldn't have come at a worse time for bilateral ties. Russia has lost a string of military deals, notably for MRCA and helicopters. From the public's point of view the latest soap opera needs to end soon. Sevmash Shipyard in North Russia, where Vikramaditya is being refitted, needs to get its act together. There are reports in the Russian press about mismanagement and lack of accountability at the company.



Sevmash could also read the riot act to the official who blamed India for the malfunction, for refusing to allow the use of harmful asbestos to insulate the engine. Better PR skills are needed in people working on such a strategic project.



A history of delays


India's defence procurement system is also plagued by delays. For more than 30 years, India's bureaucrats have failed to okay a long-range artillery gun for the army, leaving the generals nearly apoplectic.



There are also inexplicable delays in implementing the contract for the Scorpene attack submarine at a time when the number of India's diesel subs is down to single digits.



And the 11-year Medium Range Combat Aircraft saga isn't over yet, with the contract yet to be signed with France. In fact, it'll take another three years after the signing of the contract before the first Rafales arrive in India.



Basically, every wing of the military is tangled in red tape. In this backdrop, blaming the Russians alone would be puerile.



Navy's spearhead


Over the next five years, India will splurge more than US$ 100 billion to modernise its military. A good chunk of this will go to the navy, which after keeping a low profile for the past several decades is poised to break out to the deep blue sea. INS Vikramaditya will clearly be at the spearhead of that thrust, but there will be plenty of other areas where Russia's military expertise will be required.

Vikramaditya: Why India must stay the course | idrw.org

 

[Sridhar]

Naval team to visit Russia to monitor Gorshkov's progress
Published September 24, 2012 | By admin

SOURCE: PTI

Against the backdrop of delay in delivery schedule of aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, an Indian Navy team is scheduled to visit Russia in the next few days to monitor the progress of work on the warship.

The delivery schedule of the warship has slipped further after it encountered engine malfunctions during sea trials in Russia and is now expected to reach Indian shores in the second half of next year.

The team, which will be headed by a three-star officer, will also review the extent of the reported damage to the warship during the recent sea trials in Russia, sources said.

The Navy team will submit its report to the Defence Ministry before the meeting of Defence Minister A K Antony and his Russian counterpart Anatoly Serdyukov in first week of October, they said.

The two sides are meeting for the India Russia Inter-governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation (IR-IGMTC) next month where the Russian side is expected to provide reasons for the delay and the problems faced during the trials to the Indian side.

The ship, rechristened INS Vikramaditya, was scheduled for commissioning into Indian Navy by December 4, this year but Russian media reports have suggested that it would now be delivered only in October 2013.

Navy officials said so far Russian officials have not communicated the extent of damage caused to the warship due to the malfunctioning of the boilers.

They said India is expected to ask the Russian side to hand over the carrier to the Indian side within the stipulated delivery schedule and carry out the required overhauls within that time frame.

Admiral Gorshkov was a Kiev class aircraft carrier which was launched in 1982 and commissioned in 1987.

Naval team to visit Russia to monitor Gorshkov’s progress | idrw.org