INS Vikramaditya (Adm Gorshkov) aircraft carrier

[Vikramaditya]

video of how the Admiral Gorshkov became the INS Vikramaditya

 

[SHASH2K2]

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Just check out the rust and filth before we bought this, it also had a major fire on board in the 80s before it was docked, this is a truly fire and forget vessel! I cant imagine all that rusty holes could have been repaired perfectly, at best this is only an makeup for an old lady.Hope those Indian supervisors do a good job in making sure they plug all the faults. We should have had the good sense to by the Varyag instead of this, which is almost a decade younger and not to mention much bigger!

I wonder why we missed that opportunity and went in for this, may be as we Indians always say its better to buy an running car than one which is parked and unused!

 

[SHASH2K2]

Just check out the rust and filth before we bought this, it also had a major fire on board in the 80s before it was docked, this is a truly fire and forget vessel! I cant imagine all that rusty holes could have been repaired perfectly, at best this is only an makeup for an old lady.Hope those Indian supervisors do a good job in making sure they plug all the faults. We should have had the good sense to by the Varyag instead of this, which is almost a decade younger and not to mention much bigger!

I wonder why we missed that opportunity and went in for this, may be as we Indians always say its better to buy an running car than one which is parked and unused!

Who else will provide you an AC for 2.5 billion dollars along for MIG 29 to operate from carrier ? Gorshkov will have almost all major systems reinstalled so its as good as new.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Who else will provide you an AC for 2.5 billion dollars along for MIG 29 to operate from carrier ? Gorshkov will have almost all major systems reinstalled so its as good as new.

As far as i know the Nimitz class costs around 4billion dollars and thrice its size with nearly 100 air-crafts on board not to mention the America class amphibious assault ship only costs 2billion dollars and its brand new!! This sort of an cost for an second hand vessel is still not justified particularly when Russia claimed it was gifting it to India, we did not know then it would cost so much to refit.

Does anyone have an estimate of how much the IAC going to cost? I know there is no official figure but i heard its in the tune of 11,000crores, if thats true then we could have stuck with our own plans.

 

[SHASH2K2]

As far as i know the Nimitz class costs around 4billion dollars and thrice its size with nearly 100 air-crafts on board. The cost for an second hand vessel is still not justified particularly when Russia claimed it was gifting it to India, we did not know it would cost so much to refit.

Does anyone have an estimate of how much the IAC going to cost? I know there is no official figure but i heard its in the tune of 11,000crores, if thats true then we could have stuck with

Please check your sources once again. Royal navy AC that was rumored to be offered to us was about 5-6 billion dollars and that too without any planes. Think about Nimitz class carriers which are much larger and advance than them ?

 

[Crusader53]

Who else will provide you an AC for 2.5 billion dollars along for MIG 29 to operate from carrier ? Gorshkov will have almost all major systems reinstalled so its as good as new.

Yet, the ex-Gorshkov/ Vikramadity is a old ship that is only projected to have 20 years of service left in her. Which, would be less than half of a New Carrier. Sorry, its not looking like much of a value to me! Plus, it's a conversion of a Missile/Helocopter Cruiser and not a good one at that.


Further, as I've said all along India should have contracted somebody like South Korea to build one IAC-1. Which, is vastly more capable and would be the sister to the first IAC-1 being constructed in India at the moment. Clearly, two IAC-1's would be far more efficient that one IAC-1 and the Vikramadity. Just think of the saving in Training, Support, Logistics, etc. etc.

In short the ex-Gorshkov was a bad choice.Yet, one that India will have to live with.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Yet, the ex-Gorshkov/ Vikramadity is a old ship that is only projected to have 20 years of service left in her. Which, would be less than half of a New Carrier. Sorry, its not looking like much of a value to me! Plus, it's a conversion of a Missile/Helocopter Cruiser and not a good one at that.


Further, as I've said all along India should have contracted somebody like South Korea to build one IAC-1. Which, is vastly more capable and would be the sister to the first IAC-1 being constructed in India at the moment. Clearly, two IAC-1's would be far more efficient that one IAC-1 and the Vikramadity. Just think of the saving in Training, Support, Logistics, etc. etc.

In short the ex-Gorshkov was a bad choice.Yet, one that India will have to live with.

Vikramaditya was a immediate replacement for Virat..

It was suppose to be commissioned long ago, Unfortunately due to lack of supervision it was delayed..

The presence of Vikramaditya in IN also gives enough time for IAC projects..

Vikramaditya is a better AC than Virat..

 

[SHASH2K2]

Yet, the ex-Gorshkov/ Vikramadity is a old ship that is only projected to have 20 years of service left in her. Which, would be less than half of a New Carrier. Sorry, its not looking like much of a value to me! Plus, it's a conversion of a Missile/Helocopter Cruiser and not a good one at that.


Further, as I've said all along India should have contracted somebody like South Korea to build one IAC-1. Which, is vastly more capable and would be the sister to the first IAC-1 being constructed in India at the moment. Clearly, two IAC-1's would be far more efficient that one IAC-1 and the Vikramadity. Just think of the saving in Training, Support, Logistics, etc. etc.

In short the ex-Gorshkov was a bad choice.Yet, one that India will have to live with.

Bro something is better than nothing . For us an AC is a luxary and we donot need something as big as Nimitz class carrier. Our own AC construction is underway and will be ready in few years . Gorshkov is just a replacement for Virat and almost all major systems are new so its as good as new one .
You forgot that we are able to keep Virat afloat till now so I am sure we will be able to use Gorshkov for more that 20 years life . Donot underestimate Indian Jugad.

 

[Crusader53]

Vikramaditya was a immediate replacement for Virat..

It was suppose to be commissioned long ago, Unfortunately due to lack of supervision it was delayed..

The presence of Vikramaditya in IN also gives enough time for IAC projects..

Vikramaditya is a better AC than Virat..

Yet, she was delayed and ended up costing more. Clearly, two IAC would have been a far better solution. Which, many expressed at the time. Regardless, as I said it's too late now and India will have to make do.

 

[Crusader53]

Bro something is better than nothing . For us an AC is a luxary and we donot need something as big as Nimitz class carrier. Our own AC construction is underway and will be ready in few years . Gorshkov is just a replacement for Virat and almost all major systems are new so its as good as new one .
You forgot that we are able to keep Virat afloat till now so I am sure we will be able to use Gorshkov for more that 20 years life . Donot underestimate Indian Jugad.

India needs to be far wiser with it's Weapons Programs and the ex-Gorshkov is a perfect example. Which, is to be followed by an ~40,000 Ski Jumped Equipped IAC-1. Then a Catapult Equipped ~60,000 IAC-2 and maybe an ~75,000 Nuclear Powered IAC-3???? Who know's at this stage???


Clearly, India needs to settle on a single design of like ships.

 

[gogbot]

Yet, she was delayed and ended up costing more. Clearly, two IAC would have been a far better solution. Which, many expressed at the time. Regardless, as I said it's too late now and India will have to make do.

Yes , given the delays and cost overruns that would have been better.

But how were they to know of the delays before hand.
If the original plan had stuck , Vikarmaditya would have already been inducted by now along with the full squadron of mig-29 fighters.

A full 3-4 years ahead of the nearest IAC.

Frankly the Navy has been burned by the Russians and it is well aware.
For all intents and purposes the Vikramaditya may be the last AC purchase made from a foreign source.

IN really just wants to Close that chapter and just get its two CBG's on the water by 2015.

India needs to be far wiser with it's Weapons Programs and the ex-Gorshkov is a perfect example.

Agreed. but i would not say the ex-Gorshkov is the perfect example.
Given the budgetary constrains of the time it was one of the only options on the table for the Navy.

Plz keep in mind , that the Vikramaditya was still being considered and deals being made. IAC was still on the drawing board.
and the navy's budget was a lot smaller back then.

You must all consider the changing political relationship over the years , today while India has free reign in the Arms Bazaar. Back then We went to Russia for almost anything.
And US ties had yet to thaw.

It took 10 years to get to the point of purchasing tech like EMALS or F-18's

Which, is to be followed by an ~40,000 Ski Jumped Equipped IAC-1.
Then a Catapult Equipped ~60,000 IAC-2 and maybe an ~75,000 Nuclear Powered IAC-3???? Who know's at this stage???

Clearly, India needs to settle on a single design of like ships.

I think that's hardly a fair assessment These Carriers are being built years apart. And they have to account for changing requirements and evolving scenario's.
Foremost amongst them is the growing budget and changing interests.

IAC was originally supposed to be two Air defense ships in the 20,000 tons category like the one Thailand has.
With the easing of the budget in the late 90's. They evolved into fully fledged aircraft carriers.
But even then has a long way to go before coming IAC-1 .

But like i said changing political scenario's may have lead IN to believe it can purchase from a more varied range of suppliers. May be more budget or new threats , allowed or required a change in requirements.
But IN seems keen on making the switch from Ski-jump to catapults. And they have taken the opportunity to do so. Since IAC-1 had no sister ships , the design was evolved to meet the new requirements.

So far as IAC-3 is concerned, for all intents and purposes it is still in a very early phase. Its all just rumor and speculation really.
But if India wants to project power outside of the IOR it need a Nuclear super carrier.
That ship may be IAC-3 , may be its 4 or 5. But it will most likely be built at one point.

but so far as IAC-3 is concerned there really it nothing substantial regarding the ship , really no point talking about it.

 

[Crusader53]

[

QUOTE=gogbot;210585]
Agreed. but i would not say the ex-Gorshkov is the perfect example.
Given the budgetary constrains of the time it was one of the only options on the table for the Navy.

Plz keep in mind , that the Vikramaditya was still being considered and deals being made. IAC was still on the drawing board.
and the navy's budget was a lot smaller back then.

The deal for the Ex-Gorshkov/Vikramaditya was signed back in 2004 and was suppose to be delivered in 2008. (now 2012* at earliest)


My point then and now was India would have been wiser to contract out one IAC-1 to another ship yard like South Korea. Combined with one constructed in India it would have given India two IAC's. Which, would share Infrastucture, Logistics, Refits, Training, Spare Parts, etc. etc. etc.


As a matter of fact I bet the price would have been very competitive with vastly better life cycle costs.


*Note: Many predicted that Russia would never deliver the ex-Gorshkov on time way back in 2004.

But IN seems keen on making the switch from Ski-jump to catapults. And they have taken the opportunity to do so. Since IAC-1 had no sister ships , the design was evolved to meet the new requirements.

So far as IAC-3 is concerned, for all intents and purposes it is still in a very early phase. Its all just rumor and speculation really.
But if India wants to project power outside of the IOR it need a Nuclear super carrier.
That ship may be IAC-3 , may be its 4 or 5. But it will most likely be built at one point.

Well, see now India has went from the Vikramaditya (ex-Russian Helocopter Cruiser) to IAC-1 (40,000 ton Ski Jump Carrier) to IAC-2 (60,000 ton Catapult Equipped Carrier) to IAC-3 (75,000 ton Nuclear Carrier)! See this is what has to stop........India needs like platforms or at least near like platform and many common systems.

Really, considering that the IAC-1 is early in it's construction. If, I were India I would consider altering the Carrier to operate Catapults like the future IAC-2 & 3. As it offer far more capability and all three could operate the same types of Aircraft. (especially AEW Types and Tankers) Even if the IAC-1 has to suffer a small delay it's well worth it.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

@ crusader53
how did you come to know that iac-3 will be 75000 ton carrier?can you suggest the source.also as far as initial reports iac-2 will be a 65000 empty load carrier and iac-3 will be nuclear powered.thus iac-3 is more likely to be similar to a nimitz class carrier to be commissioned in 2025.

 

[Armand2REP]

I have to agree with crusader on this one. IN is getting WAY ahead of itself. IAC-1 is going to be delayed in launching. Get one right first.

 

[Rahul Singh]

The deal for the Ex-Gorshkov/Vikramaditya was signed back in 2004 and was suppose to be delivered in 2008. (now 2012* at earliest) *Note: Many predicted that Russia would never deliver the ex-Gorshkov on time way back in 2004.

Yes it was signed in 2004 but serious talks were on since 1999. You don't sign a deal (full of bargain) in one day......2008 was an optimistic date everybody knew it even then. In fact date extension came at little surprise even cost escalation was expected(but not that much).

My point then and now was India would have been wiser to contract out one IAC-1 to another ship yard like South Korea. Combined with one constructed in India it would have given India two IAC's. Which, would share Infrastucture, Logistics, Refits, Training, Spare Parts, etc. etc. etc.
As a matter of fact I bet the price would have been very competitive with vastly better life cycle costs.

First of all, detail design of IAC-1 was out only by 2007-08 so there was no point in dumping the Admiral Gorshkov for one more IAC-1. Secondly it is not like we don't have infrastructure to construct another IAC( presently L&T is fully capable of constructing IAC-1) rather it is like IAC-1 is a learning step to super carriers and NAVY needs not more than one.

Well, see now India has went from the Vikramaditya (ex-Russian Helocopter Cruiser) to IAC-1 (40,000 ton Ski Jump Carrier) to IAC-2 (60,000 ton Catapult Equipped Carrier) to IAC-3 (75,000 ton Nuclear Carrier)! See this is what has to stop........India needs like platforms or at least near like platform and many common systems.

Vikramaditya is an ad hoc arrangement for filling possible void. IAC-1 with 40,000 ton is for giving one similar carrier to Viramaditya and most importantly it is step-1 of Navy's quest for super carrier. Accordingly, IAC-2 at 60,000 is step-2 and IAC-3 at 75,000 ton is step-3(or ultimate aim depending upon requirements of that time).

Now what if this progressive style is not followed? Well, then there can be only two possibility. Either Navy will construct three IAC-1 and postpone super carriers for three decades or she will go for super carrier straightaway while being a no-carrier navy for over two decades.

I think Navy made most intelligent choice she could have.

Really, considering that the IAC-1 is early in it's construction. If, I were India I would consider altering the Carrier to operate Catapults like the future IAC-2 & 3. As it offer far more capability and all three could operate the same types of Aircraft. (especially AEW Types and Tankers) Even if the IAC-1 has to suffer a small delay it's well worth it.[/B]

First of all whether it is steam catapult or it is EMALS both requires huge amount of electric power and it has been observed in past that non-nuclear carriers gets seriously handicapped (range wise) when operating with catapults. Ideally IAC-1 is not a ship which can get reactors nor she as a ship large enough to accommodate extra fuel. Hence any kind of catapult on IAC-1 is just not suitable.

Anyway for an instance lets assume that IAC is suitable enough. Then what type of catapult should she go for? I guess days of steam catapults are over and buying them now is sheer waste of money. Now EMALS. Can anybody say for sure when and at what cost an EMALS system can be made available for us? For all sorts of reasons ski jump is the only suitable option for IAC-1 which is exactly the case.

 

[Crusader53]

Yes it was signed in 2004 but serious talks were on since 1999. You don't sign a deal (full of bargain) in one day......2008 was an optimistic date everybody knew it even then. In fact date extension came at little surprise even cost escalation was expected(but not that much).

First of all, detail design of IAC-1 was out only by 2007-08 so there was no point in dumping the Admiral Gorshkov for one more IAC-1. Secondly it is not like we don't have infrastructure to construct another IAC( presently L&T is fully capable of constructing IAC-1) rather it is like IAC-1 is a learning step to super carriers and NAVY needs not more than one.


Vikramaditya is an ad hoc arrangement for filling possible void. IAC-1 with 40,000 ton is for giving one similar carrier to Viramaditya and most importantly it is step-1 of Navy's quest for super carrier. Accordingly, IAC-2 at 60,000 is step-2 and IAC-3 at 75,000 ton is step-3(or ultimate aim depending upon requirements of that time).

Now what if this progressive style is not followed? Well, then there can be only two possibility. Either Navy will construct three IAC-1 and postpone super carriers for three decades or she will go for super carrier straightaway while being a no-carrier navy for over two decades.

I think Navy made most intelligent choice she could have.

First of all whether it is steam catapult or it is EMALS both requires huge amount of electric power and it has been observed in past that non-nuclear carriers gets seriously handicapped (range wise) when operating with catapults. Ideally IAC-1 is not a ship which can get reactors nor she as a ship large enough to accommodate extra fuel. Hence any kind of catapult on IAC-1 is just not suitable.

Anyway for an instance lets assume that IAC is suitable enough. Then what type of catapult should she go for? I guess days of steam catapults are over and buying them now is sheer waste of money. Now EMALS. Can anybody say for sure when and at what cost an EMALS system can be made available for us? For all sorts of reasons ski jump is the only suitable option for IAC-1 which is exactly the case.

The American Essex Class and French Foch both operated Catapults and are very close in size to the IAC-1. So, are you saying the latter couldn't operate as effectively as the American and French Carriers????

 

[Crusader53]

Yes it was signed in 2004 but serious talks were on since 1999. You don't sign a deal (full of bargain) in one day......2008 was an optimistic date everybody knew it even then. In fact date extension came at little surprise even cost escalation was expected(but not that much).

Yes, it took several years for Russia and India to sign a contract for the ex-Gorshkov. Yet, Russia still couldn't deliver it on time.........Let's not forget at a much higher price to boot!

First of all, detail design of IAC-1 was out only by 2007-08 so there was no point in dumping the Admiral Gorshkov for one more IAC-1. Secondly it is not like we don't have infrastructure to construct another IAC( presently L&T is fully capable of constructing IAC-1) rather it is like IAC-1 is a learning step to super carriers and NAVY needs not more than one.

Sorry, your logic escapes me!?!?! Why would the ex-Gorshkov and 0ne IAC. Be better than two identical IAC. Which, would share everything from Refits, Training, Parts, Logistics, etc. etc. etc.

Vikramaditya is an ad hoc arrangement for filling possible void. IAC-1 with 40,000 ton is for giving one similar carrier to Viramaditya and most importantly it is step-1 of Navy's quest for super carrier. Accordingly, IAC-2 at 60,000 is step-2 and IAC-3 at 75,000 ton is step-3(or ultimate aim depending upon requirements of that time).

While the Vikramaditya (ex-Gorshkov) maybe a little bigger than the IAC-1. It's no more capable nor does it operate a larger Airwing. So, I don't see it as a stepping stone more than the IAC-1.

Now what if this progressive style is not followed? Well, then there can be only two possibility. Either Navy will construct three IAC-1 and postpone super carriers for three decades or she will go for super carrier straightaway while being a no-carrier navy for over two decades.

Well, the Indian Navy needs to decide what it wants a stick with one or at most two designs.

I think Navy made most intelligent choice she could have.

Respectfully, disagree............my personal belief it the ex-Gorshkov will prove to be Expensive to Operate and Maintain. Plus, offering far less capabilities than India's own IAC's.

First of all whether it is steam catapult or it is EMALS both requires huge amount of electric power and it has been observed in past that non-nuclear carriers gets seriously handicapped (range wise) when operating with catapults. Ideally IAC-1 is not a ship which can get reactors nor she as a ship large enough to accommodate extra fuel. Hence any kind of catapult on IAC-1 is just not suitable.

As I said before the USN Essex and French Foch are similar in size and proved effective.

Anyway for an instance lets assume that IAC is suitable enough. Then what type of catapult should she go for? I guess days of steam catapults are over and buying them now is sheer waste of money. Now EMALS. Can anybody say for sure when and at what cost an EMALS system can be made available for us? For all sorts of reasons ski jump is the only suitable option for IAC-1 which is exactly the case.

The EMALS System is doing very well and should be ready in just a few months to install on the USS Gerald R. Ford. Regardless, Ski Jumps are hardly the best choice and very much limits the capabilities of any Air Wing.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

can someone tell me what kind of air defence system the navy has planed for iac-1,and what will the gorkshkov have?