INS Vikramaditya (Adm Gorshkov) aircraft carrier

asianobserve

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Perhaps the ship was in international waters between Russia and Norway. They do it all the time since Cold War days. NATO snoops and Russia snoops. Lately the Russians are even practicing bombing runs on Sweden, Baltic states and POland.
 

mehrotraprince

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INS Vikramaditya: When someone says it's free, then run other way: Official

After all the Handshakes , Pats and speeches at the handing over ceremony of INS Vikramaditya aka Admiral Gorshkov , it might seems that Project has deepened Military cooperation between Russia and India But in actual it has might have left a bad taste for Indians Particularly Indian Navy . And further cooperation of this magnitude might only remain in papers.

Naval Official who spoke to idrw.org, said that Indian Navy has definitely has learned some lessons on purchase of old used Ships and also not believe completely on part of seller . Indian Navy in past has acquired two used Aircraft Carriers from Royal British Navy and transaction and even Repairs and upgrades have been smooth but when it comes with purchase of old Soviet Aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov Indian Navy learned the hard way on how to deploy experienced crew for survey and Inspection of older ships and how to check claims versus facts.

Refitting of Admiral Gorshkov and purchase of Naval Variant of Mig-29k literally kick started Dying Russian Shipyard and saved Russian Naval Aviation of from been grounded , Russians with experienced crews and engineers now are planning to build new aircraft carriers for its own Navy and have already cleared purchase of Mig-29k for its own Naval Aviation .

Whole Project has been delayed by 5 years officially But Russians are walking out of the Project without paying even a dime has penalties for the all the delays and have successfully jacked up the price multiple times which Indian tax payers had to cough up.

Russians blame Intensive Reworking which was carried out the on the deck and Changes in Indian Navy requirements but contrary to Russ ian claims naval official claims that Russians had assembled crew for the Project who had little or no experience working on a ship of that magnitude and many of the ships systems which on paper didn't require replacement or repairs were found non-working.

Indian Navy knew exactly what it wanted from the Aircraft carrier and Russians agreed to carry out the work for an agreed price, but it turned out to be a classic example how a contractor threatens to walk out of the Project if Prices were not revised, and Russians blackmailed and even threated to scrap the project if India not agreed to jack up the price.

Russians tried to justify the hefty price tag of the aircraft carrier which was supposed to be free, they have claimed repeatedly that Ship is almost new and not repaired but Naval official said that Ship might look new but comes minus 20 years of operational life compared to a new one and INS Vikramaditya might serve at best for next 30 years at most and next major upgrade for the ship will be up by end of this decade.

INS Vikramaditya is the biggest ship India has ever acquired from a foreign shipyard and will also biggest in its current fleet. Indian Navy is currently in process of freezing final design of its Second Aircraft carrier INS Vishal to be built locally in India which at 65,000-ton and with Catobar configuration will be biggest ship India has ever worked on and also be biggest in its fleet when inducted and it is likely that help of US shipyards will be sorted since they have active Catobar aircrafts carriers currently under constructions.

INS Vikramaditya: When someone says it's free, then run other way: Official | idrw.org
 

Decklander

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What about the buoys the article talks about? What exactly are they?
The purpose of this excercise of dropping a sonobuoy was probably to make Vikky open up its radars when this ac approached. Normally we disguise the acoustic signature in many ways one of which is called TCM-Turn count masking. We put different speeds on all propellers so it creates a noise signal which is different from the real signature. If they really wanted the noise signature they wud have used a sub which cud have easily done the job without being detected. For all we know they may have had a sub already recording the noise and they dropped S/B only to observe change in propeller noise which wud have told them whether the noise picked by sub was real or the one picked by S/B was real.
A S/B is a listening device which has sea activated batteries with nearly 24-36 hrs endurance. They are air dropped or deployed from ships. they pick up the noise signal under water and thru a transmit antenna which remains above water, they send out a signal to the ac circling above. What you saw in red colour was its transmitting antenna. the main S/B was well below that deep in water.
 

Decklander

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they should have retrieve it if not done, then investigate what frequencies it work with and in future if something like this is drop, them jam it sending same frequency to confuse the operator.
That is how we created LOFAR sonobuoys in India. way back in 1986, we were sailing as part of our training to seycelles, Mauritous and Maldives. We went close to diego garcia and we had US ac dropping these sonobuoys around us. we used to go and pick them up and keep them in sea water drums. we handed them over to DRDO on return who reverse engineered them and also modified them to come out with indian LOFAR sonobuoy-LOw Frequency Acoustic Ranging Sonobuoy.
 
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Defenceindia2010

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INS Vikramaditya: When someone says it's free, then run other way: Official

After all the Handshakes , Pats and speeches at the handing over ceremony of INS Vikramaditya aka Admiral Gorshkov , it might seems that Project has deepened Military cooperation between Russia and India But in actual it has might have left a bad taste for Indians Particularly Indian Navy . And further cooperation of this magnitude might only remain in papers.

Naval Official who spoke to idrw.org, said that Indian Navy has definitely has learned some lessons on purchase of old used Ships and also not believe completely on part of seller . Indian Navy in past has acquired two used Aircraft Carriers from Royal British Navy and transaction and even Repairs and upgrades have been smooth but when it comes with purchase of old Soviet Aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov Indian Navy learned the hard way on how to deploy experienced crew for survey and Inspection of older ships and how to check claims versus facts.

Refitting of Admiral Gorshkov and purchase of Naval Variant of Mig-29k literally kick started Dying Russian Shipyard and saved Russian Naval Aviation of from been grounded , Russians with experienced crews and engineers now are planning to build new aircraft carriers for its own Navy and have already cleared purchase of Mig-29k for its own Naval Aviation .

Whole Project has been delayed by 5 years officially But Russians are walking out of the Project without paying even a dime has penalties for the all the delays and have successfully jacked up the price multiple times which Indian tax payers had to cough up.

Russians blame Intensive Reworking which was carried out the on the deck and Changes in Indian Navy requirements but contrary to Russ ian claims naval official claims that Russians had assembled crew for the Project who had little or no experience working on a ship of that magnitude and many of the ships systems which on paper didn't require replacement or repairs were found non-working.

Indian Navy knew exactly what it wanted from the Aircraft carrier and Russians agreed to carry out the work for an agreed price, but it turned out to be a classic example how a contractor threatens to walk out of the Project if Prices were not revised, and Russians blackmailed and even threated to scrap the project if India not agreed to jack up the price.

Russians tried to justify the hefty price tag of the aircraft carrier which was supposed to be free, they have claimed repeatedly that Ship is almost new and not repaired but Naval official said that Ship might look new but comes minus 20 years of operational life compared to a new one and INS Vikramaditya might serve at best for next 30 years at most and next major upgrade for the ship will be up by end of this decade.

INS Vikramaditya is the biggest ship India has ever acquired from a foreign shipyard and will also biggest in its current fleet. Indian Navy is currently in process of freezing final design of its Second Aircraft carrier INS Vishal to be built locally in India which at 65,000-ton and with Catobar configuration will be biggest ship India has ever worked on and also be biggest in its fleet when inducted and it is likely that help of US shipyards will be sorted since they have active Catobar aircrafts carriers currently under constructions.

INS Vikramaditya: When someone says it's free, then run other way: Official | idrw.org
SOLUTION FOR THE FUTURE:

Design, test, build locally,(increase DRDO Budget and create tech clusters in Universities+Institutes supervised by the Armed Forces, Law Enforcement Agencies).
Formulate design bureaus in Army, Air Force, Para Military for example Naval Design Bureau.
Modification and upgrade of foreign platform should be done in India,(We could have brought Adm G to Indian for refit).
Create teams of specialists comprising the user,(Armed forces) technicians,(DRDO) to work on platforms of foreign origin upgrading and modifying them locally with the assistance of Indian Inc.
Have an integrated approach to defense projects comprising:
Design,(inputs from User)>Prototyping>Test+Validation from User,(Creating facilities)>Manufacturing+Marketing,(PPP Model).
 

ersakthivel

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Possibly in Sri Lanka in Near future.
With our not so hon'ble foreign minister indirectly hitting out at the PM for not being present for commonwealth summit, the only regime that is going to be changed for now is the MMS regime in new Delhi weather we have a carrier or not.

This Salman khurshid guy just has to look at the forthright manner in which the british PM hit out at rajapakse regime. Our guys are still hiding under the bed citing future phantom chinese naval presence in Srilanka.Did the british PM keep his tongue tied for the fear chinese navy?

Knowing our impotent behaviour the Srilankans are aligning with china and pakistan sure about no punitive reprisals from India.

Will China behave the same way if we build facilities in Taiwan? How did they face us in Vietnamese waters when ONGC drilled for oil? Here our UPA PM is a weak spectator not even willing to open his mouth when Srilanka awards offshore drilling contracts perpetuating Chinese naval presence on the auspices of safe guarding their assets.

we can compare the audacity of srilankan president Rajapakse with the impotent behavior of Indian foreign policy establishment in this matter. Surely rajapakse has now made india accept chinese presence even without a destroyer of his own after receiving significant co operation from indian govt to crush the LTTE.

And the envoy of the mighty south asian super power srilanka openly declares in new Delhi that it is only India that is going to be isolated for not attending the Commonwealth meet!!!! All the while our illustrious foreign policy gurus bleating their breast in national newspapers about how the PM is harming India's ties with Srilanka!!!!

for the better part of the last five years the srilankans were tilting towards china at the expense of our national security even when New Delhi tried it's level best in not ruffling Rajapakse regime's interest. No carrier will arrest this sort of tilt with an impotent foreign policy establishment.

And our friends in PAkistan are scratching their heads after all kinds of sincere attempts at provoking indian reprisals with actions like Mumbai attack, parliament attack, beheading jawans, kargil attack. but we never cross our borders in retaliation. Americans smoke out OBL and Saddam from distant hideouts.

But we are extremely content with exhorting our Pakistani brothers to find out dawood for us and prosecute the masterminds of Mumbai attack!!!And much worse we set up meetings of Satraz Aziz -Hurriyat kind to please out guests!!!No wonder our PM is called a Dehati Aurath by Nawaz Sharif!!Since we have Burkha dhutt to deny that the pakistani PM never made that remark we need no carrier at all.


One should look at US actions at the time of cuban missile crisis to know how to use the navy. To coerce Srilanka or any other small nation out of inviting china at the cost of our national security we need no carrier at all ,only will power. As long as we don't have that all these carriers are of no use.

It is one thing to have these carriers , but no one will respect a nation which never stands up for it's rights, we can see that in Nepal , Maldives and Sri Lanka . Every one around this part of the world knows that only concern of Indian political Bigwigs lies in ensuring a steady flow of black money trail into secret swiss bank accounts and disruptive events like war will be a matter of incovenience for our political leadership.

So what use is a carrier?
 
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nirranj

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What Russian reprisal? Russians were the ones begging us not to attack and take their WMD away. That is what we are doing.
You seem to Day dream a lil too much... Perhaps next time Napoleon will come in Your dream with his siberian frozen a""...

I think India can build its own stealth ships. Russia provided much for Arihant design... because you paid for it. Similar to how we are providing much for Brasil's nuclear sub programme.
We paid, Yes and they were ready to sell us the tech. If France was so willing to cooperate, we can consider that after the first scorpene dives around the Vicky and the first Rafale Flies past the Vicky!!!

The have Su-35BM which is more advanced than MKI... then they sell it to China. :laugh:
Just like you sold the Pakistan these, "Falcon 3, Aloutte3, Airbus A310, Mirage5, Mirage 3, Fennec, Puma, Lama,

Milan Atm, Crotale SAM, Mistral MANPADS,

Agosta, Tripartite."

We will give you what you pay for better than Russia, and we will not sell it to Chinis.
We know you, afterall You have equipped the Pakistanis and who knows You would have done some TOT to China by allowing them to RE in Pakistan.

don't see you kissing their butts for safeguarding your independence.
We dont... we spill our blood to safe guard our freedom.. Not Like the French who had to wait for the Brits and Yanks to rescue the Damsel in distress!!



I think they moved to Mali.
Well the Rafale chased the Camel back Jehadis into Mali from Libiya!!! great Achievement... this equates the Russian march into Berlin in 1945 or D-Day landings!!!


Oh Monsiuer Charles De Gaul, The Artic Whale Vicky will be hungry!! don't even dream of coming into the Indian Ocean!!!
 
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nirranj

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It also has a large enough submarine fleet to get past any submarine pack India can launch to protect the Vikramaditya, and take a shot at it."
Take a shot at it!!!

Wow, they guys are always so Funny!! they may render the Indian Comedians Jobless!!
 

pmaitra

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Well, my original statement about submarines being Vikramaditya's main threat wasn't about this one trip. Fast-carriers require SSN escorts, and India only has Chakra with mid-term plans for just one more of the class. I suppose Chakra and your next Akula could be tasked for such purpose, but that would limit the utility of both. Perhaps the Arihant-class could pull escort-duty as well if enough are built, but dedicated SSNs would be better suited.
Well, Vikramaditya (it was Baku then) was built to provide protection to submarines. The irony is that today, it needs submarines to give it protection.
 

kseeker

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INS Vikramaditya was spied upon by NATO aircraft and ship last year but the matter was hushed up : North, News - India Today


NATO P-3C Orion recce aircraft as seen from the deck of INS Vikramaditya in the summer of 2012.

INS Vikramaditya, India's largest aircraft carrier, is safely in the Indian Navy's hands now, and will begin its journey home shortly. But just a year ago, there was an incident that created a major stir on board the massive ship as it was put through trials at sea off the Russian coast.

INS Vikramaditya was spied upon by NATO forces.

Headlines Today Deputy Editor Shiv Aroor, the first Indian journalist on board the aircraft carrier, has accessed exclusive images of that disturbing incident that was even taken up at the diplomatic level.

The images show a NATO maritime spy aircraft repeatedly buzzing.

Over INS Vikramaditya in an attempt to snoop on her communications and combat signatures. Never before revealed, these images captured from the deck of the ship show how the US-built P-3C Orion "buzzed" the ship just a few hundred feet over her deck and circled her in an attempt to harvest classified electronic and acoustic data about the vessel.

The snooping operation created such a stir that the Russian team on board the Vikramaditya summoned a Russian Navy MiG-29K from a shore base to chase away the intruding aircraft.

The spy aircraft beat a hasty retreat once the MiG-29K arrived on the scene.


NATO P-3C Orion aircraft hovering over INS Vikramaditya

During the spying mission, the P-3C aircraft dropped two sensor buoys into Vikramaditya's immediate path in such a way that the ship sailed right through the gap between the two red bobbing devices, allowing the aircraft to record acoustic signatures.

Later, the Russian government sent photographs of the intrusion, including pictures of the sensor buoys, to the US Embassy in Moscow and NATO headquarters, but has received no reply yet.

Both the Indian Navy and the shipyard that modernised the Vikramaditya confirmed the incident but were tightlipped about the details of how much data about the battleship may have been compromised.

The NATO aircraft chose the early summer of 2012 when the sea was calm and the relative silence of neutral waters interfered least with sounds emanating from a ship - ideal conditions for airborne electronic snooping.

In another attempt to listen in on Vikramaditya's communications and electronic emanations, a Norwegian ship attempted to snoop on the ship shortly after the airborne spying mission.

The vessel, known to have specialised electronic equipment on board that allows the recording of acoustics from a distance, came fairly close to the Vikramaditya.

By that time, command and crew on board the aircraft carrier had made her go near totally silent.



A NATO ship from Norway snooping on the Vikramaditya.

The spygame between NATO and Russia remains intact years after the end of the Cold War, with both sides routinely intercepting and escorting "stray" aircraft, or attempting to snoop on aircraft and ship movements near maritime boundaries.

However, the fact that the snooping incident was on an Indian ship was a surprise.



The sensor buoys dropped by the NATO aircraft near the Vikramaditya to harvest acoustic data


NATO P-3C Orion spy aircraft spying on INS Vikramaditya


A close-up shot of NATO spy aircraft.




The NATO ship snooping on the Vikramaditya.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

These Amreekans will not even spare their Mother in spying game :tsk:, spying on India is not surprising !
 

Austin

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Russia and India are negotiating maintenance "Vikramaditya"
Россия и Индия ведут переговоры по техническому обслуживанию «Викрамадитьи» - ВПК.name
"The group remains on Karwar naval base, where the aircraft carrier will be assigned for a period of one year. Currently there are negotiations on contractual obligations after the expiration of the warranty period of service, "said vice-president of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC), Igor Ponomarev.

"Russia seeks to modernize the aircraft carrier during the entire 40-year life cycle. It was the most difficult and unusual project that we have ever carried. "Vikramaditya" is not just a renovated ship. It all new, except for housing, "said chief designer of the Nevsky PKB Sergei Vlasov, he was among the first engineers who designed TAVKR" Admiral Gorshkov ". Asked about the problems of working with the Government of India and the navy, he smiles: "When we were preparing the documentation every six months Indians approached us with inquiries, required a lot of information. We were not burdened by contractual obligations to the topic, but we went to the contacts because of the open and friendly relations between us. " Indian Navy paid a lot of attention to improving the comfort of the service crew on board the "Vikramaditya". "I hope that the Russian Navy will draw some lessons from our work on ergonomics," he says.

Indian journalist asked Vlasov of "conspicuous absence" on the ship air defense systems, he shook his head and said, "Indian Navy did not appeal to us with this question. Ships of this class may not have their own means of defense, because carriers do not walk alone. We are asked about the possibility of the integration of Israel's air defense system on the aircraft carrier, but did not receive the request. I foresee some problems with the integration of Israel's air defense system, but it is not within our control. " Vlasov said that if the Indian Navy will be asked to install the ship missile defense system "Chestnut" and MZAK AKA-630, they can be integrated quickly.

Ponomariov was frank: "We underestimated the initial work. Were difficult and serious discussion in one year there were six. But what happens in the world, it is normal practice in the shipbuilding industry. "

Responsible deliverer "Vikramaditya" Igor Leonov, probably knows more than any other thing you can do to "Vikramaditya" right now. "After 2004, the Indian side bombarded us asking for the integration of a huge number of new systems. There were a lot more than was required under the contract, "he says.

USC Chapter stands ready to assist in the construction of the Indian national carrier Vikrant (Project 71) at the shipyard in Cochin: "We are providing some assistance, ready to provide any additional, if requested by the Indian side. I doubt that the U.S. and the EU would like to share technologies, to the extent that we can provide. " Ponomarev also noted that Russia offered India to buy three more advanced class frigate Talwar, the proposal being studied by the Indian side. On the table is also upgrading submarine Project 877 at the shipyard "asterisk".
 

sayareakd

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Russians thank you for finally delivering us ACand dispite your mistake it cost us time and money in future we will make our own tech only them we will learn to make bigger ships and projects.
 

nirranj

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Russians thank you for finally delivering us ACand dispite your mistake it cost us time and money in future we will make our own tech only them we will learn to make bigger ships and projects.
Russians argue that it was India's add on requests that led tp the delays and cost escalations. But they canot deny the Boiler Mal function induced one year delay.
 

sayareakd

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Russians argue that it was India's add on requests that led tp the delays and cost escalations. But they canot deny the Boiler Mal function induced one year delay.
They themselves admitted mistake on their part for work to be done on the ship. Once commited the money not much we can do, but for future IA should get good lawyer to draft future contracts.
 

AVERAGE INDIAN

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Moral of the story.Never try to reinvent/rebuild a mothballed missile cruiser/hybrid flat top meant to operate VSTOL aircraft into a conventional carrier.It is better building a new one from scratch:p
 

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