Indian Special Forces

abingdonboy

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If only i could really share what really happened in so called special operations and post it i would get the air out of the ballon of the people boasting so high about the achievements.

But my hands are tied..

Jisko samaj aa jaye...acha he!

Moral of the story..we need to work hard.
The problem is the guys at the top and the vast majority of the populace believe all is well and are getting high on their own supply of copium.

i bet that had anyone asked the Govt of India or average Indian defence ‘expert’/fan on 25/11/2008 if NSG were world class/up to scratch you’d have heard nothing but they are the best of the best etc

to fix something you first need to accept it’s broken, there’s almost no discourse at the top about the reality and most at the bottom are of the similar mindset. One day india will have to use SFs to achieve something strategically relevant, only after this fails will there be change. Tactical screw ups that happen consistently don’t seem sufficient to wake up the so called leadership.
 

rohit b3

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And you're back with what seems to be your only source on Indian SF. Again, not doubting Major Vivek Jacob's credentials but COME ON, DUDE!

We might not be bombing houses in Kashmir but do you have any idea how many times RR has resorted to just blow up the damn house with explosives or just set the house on fire with flamethrowers just so that they don't have to engage in actual door to door CQB?
Do you have any idea, how many Indian SF operatives have lost their lives in CQB operations over the years in Kashmir because they lacked basic SOF equipment like stun grenades. Do you understand that many of these casualties wouldn't have happened if they had proper night fighting capabilities and could employ the tactical advantage of the night?
Sure Kashmir is one hell of a heated sector but have you any idea how ignorant you sound when you compare it to the GWOT in Afghanistan?
Using the tactical advantage that is provided by the darkness of the night has been what has been winning the western SOF battles for decades now. And after all the equipment that Taliban has amassed from the leftovers in Afghanistan, the day is not far when the HM militant holed up in a house has an actual tactical advantage over our SF because of better night fighting capabilities.
Have you ever studied how Indian forces still fight terror in Kashmir? It's literally ancient doctrine. Pulling a cordon, waiting for RR to move in, calling SF even if there's the slightest complexity. The amount of deployment that is done in Kashmir for a few militants is just overkill, if you have properly trained guys. Everytime there's an encounter, there's JKP SOG, CRPF and RR there with the occasional SF deployment. If this were Afghanistan, it would have been a couple of detachments of Green Berets with Army Rangers on standby for emergency extraction. THAT'S IT. And this isn't even for run-of-the-mill militants. I'm talking medium level HVTs. For more critical HVTs, replace Green Berets with Tier 1. And all this would have been in the dead of the night with ISR overhead and noone would have had a clue until the next morning. No day long cordons, no blowing up buildings, no shitshow!
Face it dude. Indian SF is nowhere it used to be. Don't give examples of Surgical Strikes and 26/11. If you really had enough knowledge, you would have known why you shouldn't be citing them as examples.
And as for training, India doesn't really have the upper hand in training. Sure India trains some nations like Djibouti and Phillipines and Bangladesh but in all other cases it's joint training. Granted HAWS is one hell of a facility but apart from that, nothing exceptional that Indian military has to offer. And definitely not SF.
Grow up, man. It's good to be proud of your country. But don't be so blind-sighted that you disregard facts.
And just to get you to start making reason I have a question for you. If Indian SF is so capable, how come we've never been able to strike a single HVT in Pakistan. There's certainly no lack of them.
And people the world over know the laurels of NSDWG and CAG when it comes to that.
Food for thought.
To give a short reply -
1. You are definately doubting Maj. Jacob's credintial if you are not taking a 9 PARA SF guy's opinion seriously...someone who have had regularly trained with their Western counterparts.

2. Your next part is about equipment, which i agree, so no comments.

3. Do not compare Afghanistan with Kashmir. I can go to Kashmir and come back alive. I cant guarantee the same in Afghanistan.

4. Im not awawre of Djibouti and Phil soldiers training here. But our most common Students are from US. They complete courses at OTA, CIJWS, HAWS...atleast these 3 i know.
 

rohit b3

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This is a very foolish and amatuerish assessment. We don't use fire support assets because they're not conducive to the AO in kashmir nor are they needed, where insurgents are dispersed into fireteam-sized elements and are too miniscule to warrant CAS or even artillery; not to mention both of those take time and actual capability to call in (Indian army doesn't have JTAC qualified personnel in it's ranks). On the other we have a fetish for structural attacks in Kashmir and far more often will launch a Carl Gustav or plant demolition charges on structures instead of clearing them out, because it's implicitly understood that the Indian army doesn't have confidence in it's room clearing capabilities. This is also, again, comparing apples to oranges. Afghanistan is a whole country with completely different terrain and OPFOR that is far more numerous, better equipped, and competant than anything Kashmir has ever seen.
Afghanistan is larger, but their militants are wide spread as well. Some hiding between civilians in populated areas just like Kashmir.
 

rohit b3

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You're an embodiment of the phrase "A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing".
Too much knowledge seems equally dangerous too i suppose. Brings in some sort of low self esteem. Even ends up questioning credibility of ex-9 PARA SF operatives..
 

Fire and groove

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SOCOM FOCOM WOCOM and all sounds good. no doubt. But again, at the end of the day, what matters? The success. i mentioned in my earlier comment....be it a khukri or a AK47......gotta get the job done.
You are living in a country whose population/landmass is 20 times more than say...Uk/Israel...and your security agencies are making sure that peace and stability is maintained along with a decent economy growth......even when both external and internal elements are doing their best to destroy that.

Says something.

And oh, about 1971.....The little bit of existence and "fame" these Brits and some other Western countries have today are based of their glory days.
"Oh we invented Special forces" "Oh we won WW2(even though we would have had troubles of 2.5 Million Indians didn help us, but we will not mention that)" "Oh Iranian Embassy Siege"...Yada Yada.

Idk about their Special forces, but leave a British soldier at 18,000 ft in Kargil, and they wouldn stay healthy for a day. Let alone have the capacity and training to fight a war .
A man who dismisses the basic building blocks of a competant SOF, that too under a pretense which is understood by many to be an excuse for the misuse and under-development of special operations personnel just because they can perform the base level tasking wrongfully assigned to them (something even the RR can and does do); is probably going to have a hard time comprehending the absolute state of Indian SOF. But hey, atleast they're authorized to kill cannon fodder.
 

Fire and groove

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Afghanistan is larger, but their militants are wide spread as well. Some hiding between civilians in populated areas just like Kashmir.
Yep, so how many call for fires happened then?
Edit: It's almost as if the coalition didn't use fire-support assets in widely populated areas, and would instead do so when the contacts had their troops pinned down in more desolate fields.
 
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JConline

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To give a short reply -
1. You are definately doubting Maj. Jacob's credintial if you are not taking a 9 PARA SF guy's opinion seriously...someone who have had regularly trained with their Western counterparts.

2. Your next part is about equipment, which i agree, so no comments.

3. Do not compare Afghanistan with Kashmir. I can go to Kashmir and come back alive. I cant guarantee the same in Afghanistan.

4. Im not awawre of Djibouti and Phil soldiers training here. But our most common Students are from US. They complete courses at OTA, CIJWS, HAWS...atleast these 3 i know.
1. Ek aadmi ke dum pe aur kitna behes karoge yaar? If you want go and listen to Major Avinash Sahani. Woh bhi 10 Para SF hai. Major Gaurav Arya ka bayan sunlo SF pe.
2. Good that you agree with something. Also, khukri aur AK47 se ho jata toh duniya ka har military pagal hai kya Naya equipment khareed rahi hai? Duniya ka choro na, tumhare logic se toh India bhi pagal hua na jo 1.5 lakh SIG716 khareed rahe hai frontline troops ke liye?
3. Ha. Exactly. You know why? Cause Kashmir is part of your country. Afghanistan is part of noone's country. Now do you understand why it's a way worse theatre of operations than Kashmir?
4. Again, you know very little to support your own arguments. Case and point.
 
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JConline

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Too much knowledge seems equally dangerous too i suppose. Brings in some sort of low self esteem. Even ends up questioning credibility of ex-9 PARA SF operatives..
Not "operatives". Operative. Cause I have facts to back my questioning up.
And I don't have low-esteem. Infact I'm very hopeful for MARCOS and Garuds and NSG. But Para SF seems way too far behind.
 

rohit b3

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A man who dismisses the basic building blocks of a competant SOF, that too under a pretense which is understood by many to be an excuse for the misuse and under-development of special operations personnel just because they can perform the base level tasking wrongfully assigned to them (something even the RR can and does do); is probably going to have a hard time comprehending the absolute state of Indian SOF. But hey, atleast they're authorized to kill cannon fodder.
A man who dismisses the basic building blocks of a competant SOF, that too under a pretense which is understood by many to be an excuse for the misuse and under-development of special operations personnel just because they can perform the base level tasking wrongfully assigned to them (something even the RR can and does do); is probably going to have a hard time comprehending the absolute state of Indian SOF. But hey, atleast they're authorized to kill cannon fodder.
Why do keyboard experts think that they understand the roles better than the professionals themselves ?

Im no military/SOF guy. So my knowledge is very much limited on what is actually going on inside. But my interpretation is based on the end results. Repeating again...thats all what matters .

About the other "Experts" on here, they have been reading way too much theory. I dont know if they realize that the "Theories" they read in public domain is only a fraction of the whole thing. Someone pointed to me that "A little bit of knowledge is dangerous" . Well definitely, and i admit i do not know whats going on inside. But the "Experts" who think they know it all, after reading a few articles or after watching some Hollywood movies..is way more dangerous, cause they think they know it all.
 

rohit b3

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Not "operatives". Operative. Cause I have facts to back my questioning up.
And I don't have low-esteem. Infact I'm very hopeful for MARCOS and Garuds and NSG. But Para SF seems way too far behind.
Correction on my end...one Ex-9 PARA SF and one Ex-11 PARA SF....So Operatives. Even apna Ex-MARCOS and 26/11 hero Praveen Teotia said MARCOS are better , clearly. But chodo.
About MARCOS,Garud and NSG.....
You dont get to read a lot about MARCOS. Im sure they are up there with the PARA SF, but without much of public info available, its hard to assess.
Garud..new unit. Little success to talk about.
NSG ...Well definitely among the best among paramilitary units in the world. Holds the record for the largest ever hostage/civilian rescue. Holds the record for the second fastest done plane anti hijacking operation. But i wouldn put them in the same list as Military SOFs.. The job profile isnt the same.

PARA SF is our oldest SOF and they have opened their account with a bang in the 1971 war. and have carried out massive successful operations across continents. Cant ignore that.
 

Fire and groove

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Why do keyboard experts think that they understand the roles better than the professionals themselves ?

Im no military/SOF guy. So my knowledge is very much limited on what is actually going on inside. But my interpretation is based on the end results. Repeating again...thats all what matters .

About the other "Experts" on here, they have been reading way too much theory. I dont know if they realize that the "Theories" they read in public domain is only a fraction of the whole thing. Someone pointed to me that "A little bit of knowledge is dangerous" . Well definitely, and i admit i do not know whats going on inside. But the "Experts" who think they know it all, after reading a few articles or after watching some Hollywood movies..is way more dangerous, cause they think they know it all.
Didn't know Gen PC katoch wasn't a credible source.
 

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