Indian Special Forces

[Fire and groove]

Says the citizen of a country that literally broke another reasonably powerful country into 2 parts and formed a new country out of it. NICE!

1. That was 50 years ago, the people responsible for 71 are long since gone and the environment as well as the institutions are entirely different. The people who strategised 1971 did so after going through two successive wars and being forced into a process of trial by fire. There is no such provisions today, with the appointments of generals like Bipin Rawat being a key example of why. Late CDS Bipin Rawat, while certainly not a poor officer by any means, wasn't credited with an exceptional career either and was said to be more politically charged and active by his peers, something that wasn't looked kindly. He was also decidedly against the shift in strategic priorities from Pakistan to China probably seeing it would consequently lead to a priority shift from army centric mechanised maneuver formations to more defensive formations with a heavier emphasis on a far more fleshed out, integrated yet independant airforce. This is further backed by his crusade against the airforce into being a subserviant, supportive arm to the army. Your statement is also ignorant of the masterclass in offensive operations that was the gulf war, or the several conventional successes of the US.
2. None of that has to do with SOF at all. Your statement is a complete pivot from the arguement. The US has defacto the most fleshed out SOF forces in the world and has been pioneering the concept for the past 40 years, India isn't remotely close and hasn't taken even the remotest steps responsible like the creation of a SOCOM equivalent to set the foundations barring whatever abomination AFSOD is meant to be, since the "prototype" hypothesis is rapidly becoming less likely; nor has it developed or employed it's SOF in their effective roles all too much. You know you've fucked up somewhere regarding special operations when one of the biggest mandates for the Garud - a SOF unit - is pulling guard duty for an airbase. This doesn't even get into individual equipment or training yet.

 

[India Super Power]

CI/CT is a major aspect. Its a major part of unconventional warfare.
Anyway, you want other major type of operations ? - 1971 Vehicle borne raids 80 kms deep inside Pakistan .
- Rescue mission of 123 Indian soldiers trapped by 5000 RUF Rebels
- NSG/MARCOS ka Mumbai raids
- Maldivies Govt. rescue
- Raids inside Pakistan
-Direct action in Kargil
- Largest ever Airdrop in the World (Tangail Airdrop)

Bahut hain aise.

Woh British logo ne 26 Hostages ko bachaya koi Iranian Embassy se. Woh unhone kardiya Famous. 100 Documentaries/10 Books. Paisa kamaye, popularity mili.
Idhar NSG/MARCOS ne 800+ rescue kiya by covering 1000+ rooms. Uska toh fanboys mein kuch hua hee nahi. Yes...25 Special forces from across the world approached NSG for training. But media/fanboyism nahi hua naa? Cause thats all what matters.

Woh British logo ne apne 5 soldiers rescue kiye koi local gunda se, in Sierra Leone. West Side Boys naam ka koi gang se. Woh toh bhai...World Famous ho Gaya!

Leken jab Revolutionary United Front ke 5000 troops advance karne lage...toh yeh British toh town evacuate karke bhage. Apne Gorkha ke 123 troops nahi bhage....ended up getting surrounded. SAS toh tha udhar. Ungli choos rahe the.
Phir finally Baap toh baap hota hain. PARA SF ko deploy karna padha to Sierra Leone. the rest is history.

Aur about Major Jacob. Bisleri wala toh comedy hain hee. One more thing that shocked me. they dont walk during operations. Anything over 7 kms, they use Hepters. Thats pathetic. And woh ek apna MARCOS bhi thaa jo SEALs ka course easily top kiya tha? I forgot his name...

If u want to compare ci/ct ops then let me tell u Western sf were daily fighting in Afghanistan in domain of ci
They are very advanced in terms of doctrine and rules of engagement
I repeat what i said in present and future warfare modern training equipment and tactics is gonna give u edge nothing else
U want to believe major then u can but I can definitely say he is lying terribly or surrounded by superiority complex
We will face a lot of defeat in sf domain if we see any war with Pakistan or China then we will see what is our condition

 

[Waanar]

1. That was 50 years ago, the people responsible for 71 are long since gone and the environment as well as the institutions are entirely different. The people who strategised 1971 did so after going through two successive wars and being forced into a process of trial by fire. There is no such provisions today, with the appointments of generals like Bipin Rawat being a key example of why. Late CDS Bipin Rawat, while certainly not a poor officer by any means, wasn't credited with an exceptional career either and was said to be more politically charged and active by his peers, something that wasn't looked kindly. He was also decidedly against the shift in strategic priorities from Pakistan to China probably seeing it would consequently lead to a priority shift from army centric mechanised maneuver formations to more defensive formations with a heavier emphasis on a far more fleshed out, integrated yet independant airforce. This is further backed by his crusade against the airforce into being a subserviant, supportive arm to the army. Your statement is also ignorant of the masterclass in offensive operations that was the gulf war, or the several conventional successes of the US.
2. None of that has to do with SOF at all. Your statement is a complete pivot from the arguement. The US has defacto the most fleshed out SOF forces in the world and has been pioneering the concept for the past 40 years, India isn't remotely close and hasn't taken even the remotest steps responsible like the creation of a SOCOM equivalent to set the foundations barring whatever abomination AFSOD is meant to be, since the "prototype" hypothesis is rapidly becoming less likely; nor has it developed or employed it's SOF in their effective roles all too much. You know you've fucked up somewhere regarding special operations when one of the biggest mandates for the Garud - a SOF unit - is pulling guard duty for an airbase. This doesn't even get into individual equipment or training yet.

Every few days, some dude logs on here and repeats the same argument after reading it off of quora, SSBcrack, "Sigma male" Para SF edits or Elitepredator's blogs and talks like people over here haven't gone through such discussions a literal hundred times before.

I pray to the gods to give me a fraction of the confidence these guys exude when talking of stuff they have no understanding of.

The Bangladesh war is over. It was over half a century ago.
Stop using it as a showcase of merit among your own people. Use it to troll Pakistanis (who have further fallen and cannot claim any parity with us anymore) but don't try to delude your own.

 

[Waanar]

If u want to compare ci/ct ops then let me tell u Western sf were daily fighting in Afghanistan in domain of ci
They are very advanced in terms of doctrine and rules of engagement
I repeat what i said in present and future warfare modern training equipment and tactics is gonna give u edge nothing else
U want to believe major then u can but I can definitely say he is lying terribly or surrounded by superiority complex
We will face a lot of defeat in sf domain if we see any war with Pakistan or China then we will see what is our condition

SOFs are terribly restricted in peer to peer conflict. In a conventional war, the infantry will decide the course of the war.
Infantry and missiles, that is. SOFs will always be reduced to "super infantry" roles there. LICo environments are where SOFs shine.

 

[India Super Power]

1. That was 50 years ago, the people responsible for 71 are long since gone and the environment as well as the institutions are entirely different. The people who strategised 1971 did so after going through two successive wars and being forced into a process of trial by fire. There is no such provisions today, with the appointments of generals like Bipin Rawat being a key example of why. Late CDS Bipin Rawat, while certainly not a poor officer by any means, wasn't credited with an exceptional career either and was said to be more politically charged and active by his peers, something that wasn't looked kindly. He was also decidedly against the shift in strategic priorities from Pakistan to China probably seeing it would consequently lead to a priority shift from army centric mechanised maneuver formations to more defensive formations with a heavier emphasis on a far more fleshed out, integrated yet independant airforce. This is further backed by his crusade against the airforce into being a subserviant, supportive arm to the army. Your statement is also ignorant of the masterclass in offensive operations that was the gulf war, or the several conventional successes of the US.
2. None of that has to do with SOF at all. Your statement is a complete pivot from the arguement. The US has defacto the most fleshed out SOF forces in the world and has been pioneering the concept for the past 40 years, India isn't remotely close and hasn't taken even the remotest steps responsible like the creation of a SOCOM equivalent to set the foundations barring whatever abomination AFSOD is meant to be, since the "prototype" hypothesis is rapidly becoming less likely; nor has it developed or employed it's SOF in their effective roles all too much. You know you've fucked up somewhere regarding special operations when one of the biggest mandates for the Garud - a SOF unit - is pulling guard duty for an airbase. This doesn't even get into individual equipment or training yet.

Very well explained
He is comparing oranges and apple
Our structural deficiency is the most hurting thing with regards of sf
We basically never know the purpose and usage of sof
We must stop comparing what happened 30-40-50 years ago we and world is different today
What happened that time doesn't decide our present
We seriously lack night fighting capabilities and then these jai ho gang shout one of the best sf

 

[FalconSlayers]

What’s the purpose of this thread when the same whining and seething is supposed to continue everyday? Roz utho, khana khao, run-d-rona pelo aur so jaoo…

@ezsasa please lock this thread for good

 

[India Super Power]

SOFs are terribly restricted in peer to peer conflict. In a conventional war, the infantry will decide the course of the war.
Infantry and missiles, that is. SOFs will always be reduced to "super infantry" roles there. LICo environments are where SOFs shine.

I think like many others say they are tip of swords sp they decide the initial course of ops and then align with infantry and act as an arm in case of war

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

If only i could really share what really happened in so called special operations and post it i would get the air out of the ballon of the people boasting so high about the achievements.

But my hands are tied..

Jisko samaj aa jaye...acha he!

Moral of the story..we need to work hard.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Says the citizen of a country that literally broke another reasonably powerful country into 2 parts and formed a new country out of it. NICE!

That country was already broken into two my friend.

Please go and read about the politics before reading only about the military.

Also read about Mukhti Bahini.

A nation spread across thousands of miles and having no air or land connection ..breaking it into two is not soo difficult.

All the other ops you brag about i could share a much realistic picture and if i knew yoh personally i would share more things which would make you humble about our great country.

Only if you have a open mind.

 

[ManhattanProject]

View attachment 161545

There is no plate in that carrier..what os he saving, money or weight? If its weight, i thought they were supposed to carry 40 kgs for 60kms?

 

[NotASussyBoi]

There is no plate in that carrier..what os he saving, money or weight? If its weight, i thought they were supposed to carry 40 kgs for 60kms?

chillax its just some photo op

 

[rohit b3]

It's very much agreed upon, even on this thread that our forces were top tier and they started lagging and falling behind world standards in the late 90s and especially after GWOT heated up.


He "topped" BUD/S. Most of BUDS attendees are civilians. It's not a technical course, it's a selection course. An active operator crushing a selection course for an equivalent SOF is not something to brag about.


Who told you this?

The so called "GWOT" is nothing like the way we conduct it. We do not use air strikes, and avoid demolition unless its absolutely needed. Well known fact that we do it much better -

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/ind...commandos-as-ties-deepen-ahead-of-2014-545156

"We have just been in this game for a longer time, and bombing a home whether in Kashmir or the northeast is just not part of our operating procedure."

Civilian casualties in anti-Taliban operations in Afghanistan have deepened resentment of U.S. forces, and in turn, fuelled the insurgency.

Any link that it was just BUD/S? Because wherever i am reading, it mentions "Seals course" . Not too sure. But never the less, my friend at OTA somewhat confirmed my views. lol

Helicopter part -


28.05

 

[abingdonboy]

Offcourse they are better than Western SFs in terms of CT/CI. Which world are you living in?

Yeh Joker logo ko toh pata bhi nahi tha Extremist Islamic terrorism hoti kya hain....until only 2 decades ago -


And coming back to CT/CI -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Insurgency_and_Jungle_Warfare_School_(India)

We literally train the half the world in CT/CI
Quote - Taking into account the successes in combating militancy, the Indian Army opened the school to soldiers from other countries in 2001. Three US Army officers were the first overseas batch to be trained. After the 9/11 terror strikes in the US, CIJWS began attracting troops from around the world. In 2003, a group of about 100 US Special Forces soldiers completed a three-week counter-insurgency combat training at the institute. The exercise, code-named Balance Iroquois, saw them undergo an intensive exercise along with soldiers from the Indian Army's Para (Special Forces) at the CIJWS.
CIJWS has hosted visiting military units for training from the United States, Singapore, Nepal, Bhutan, Russia, United Kingdom, Israel, France, Bangladesh and many other nations.

Major Jacob aur Major Thakur started laughing discussing about Western Special forces, especially US Seals.
I have a friend. Ex-Ghatak. During his basic training at OTA, he witnessed a lot of foreign students including a batch of US Navy Seals. Sala, 3 weeks ka course completely karne hua nahi inse. 1 week mein wapas gaye kyunke Chennai is "Too hot" for them. Mazak chal raha hain kya?

Naah Afghanistan control hoti hain, naah Vietnam.
Call of Duty mein chal jaate hain....and then apna video game fanboys toh hote hain...But i cant believe yeh thread mein bhi aise hain.

How can these sort of views still be popping up?

India doesn’t train half the world in anything. Western (and particularly US) units just have the god sense to go all around the world to find expertise and to tap it. 1st SF group (green berets) literally have units training with/deployed with SF units of Japan, Philippines, Thailand etc etc year round. A few courses taken over the years at Indian schools does not constitute Indian training of foreign units by default, not even close.

You’ll struggle to find Indian SFs even being mentioned by Western SFs- they are argent irrelevant and or not rated by them as skilled.

+ keep dismissing Western units who have capabilities (and successful missions) Indian SF could only dream about

 

[abingdonboy]

CI/CT is a major aspect. Its a major part of unconventional warfare.
Anyway, you want other major type of operations ? - 1971 Vehicle borne raids 80 kms deep inside Pakistan .
- Rescue mission of 123 Indian soldiers trapped by 5000 RUF Rebels
- NSG/MARCOS ka Mumbai raids
- Maldivies Govt. rescue
- Raids inside Pakistan
-Direct action in Kargil
- Largest ever Airdrop in the World (Tangail Airdrop)

Bahut hain aise.

Woh British logo ne 26 Hostages ko bachaya koi Iranian Embassy se. Woh unhone kardiya Famous. 100 Documentaries/10 Books. Paisa kamaye, popularity mili.
Idhar NSG/MARCOS ne 800+ rescue kiya by covering 1000+ rooms. Uska toh fanboys mein kuch hua hee nahi. Yes...25 Special forces from across the world approached NSG for training. But media/fanboyism nahi hua naa? Cause thats all what matters.

Woh British logo ne apne 5 soldiers rescue kiye koi local gunda se, in Sierra Leone. West Side Boys naam ka koi gang se. Woh toh bhai...World Famous ho Gaya!

Leken jab Revolutionary United Front ke 5000 troops advance karne lage...toh yeh British toh town evacuate karke bhage. Apne Gorkha ke 123 troops nahi bhage....ended up getting surrounded. SAS toh tha udhar. Ungli choos rahe the.
Phir finally Baap toh baap hota hain. PARA SF ko deploy karna padha to Sierra Leone. the rest is history.

Aur about Major Jacob. Bisleri wala toh comedy hain hee. One more thing that shocked me. they dont walk during operations. Anything over 7 kms, they use Hepters. Thats pathetic. And woh ek apna MARCOS bhi thaa jo SEALs ka course easily top kiya tha? I forgot his name...

Lol clinging to a few Ops (with mixed results) spread over decades. ISAF/NATO SFs we’re doing 1000s of missions annual during GWOT that Indian SFs would be chest thumping about for years if they did just one type mission.

It’s embarrassing at this point to pretend there is equivalence

 

[abingdonboy]

It's very much agreed upon, even on this thread that our forces were top tier and they started lagging and falling behind world standards in the late 90s and especially after GWOT heated up.

interestingly SAS veterans have said openly that they largely considered themselves the best and CAG/DEVGRU a significant step below them in the 80s/90s (CAG was created largely using the SAS formula) but when they got into GWOT in 00s they found themselves lagging badly behind their US counterparts in tactics and equipment, they then basically copied them to try and keep up.

but Indian SF are still better, just because

 

[rohit b3]

1. That was 50 years ago, the people responsible for 71 are long since gone and the environment as well as the institutions are entirely different. The people who strategised 1971 did so after going through two successive wars and being forced into a process of trial by fire. There is no such provisions today, with the appointments of generals like Bipin Rawat being a key example of why. Late CDS Bipin Rawat, while certainly not a poor officer by any means, wasn't credited with an exceptional career either and was said to be more politically charged and active by his peers, something that wasn't looked kindly. He was also decidedly against the shift in strategic priorities from Pakistan to China probably seeing it would consequently lead to a priority shift from army centric mechanised maneuver formations to more defensive formations with a heavier emphasis on a far more fleshed out, integrated yet independant airforce. This is further backed by his crusade against the airforce into being a subserviant, supportive arm to the army. Your statement is also ignorant of the masterclass in offensive operations that was the gulf war, or the several conventional successes of the US.
2. None of that has to do with SOF at all. Your statement is a complete pivot from the arguement. The US has defacto the most fleshed out SOF forces in the world and has been pioneering the concept for the past 40 years, India isn't remotely close and hasn't taken even the remotest steps responsible like the creation of a SOCOM equivalent to set the foundations barring whatever abomination AFSOD is meant to be, since the "prototype" hypothesis is rapidly becoming less likely; nor has it developed or employed it's SOF in their effective roles all too much. You know you've fucked up somewhere regarding special operations when one of the biggest mandates for the Garud - a SOF unit - is pulling guard duty for an airbase. This doesn't even get into individual equipment or training yet.

SOCOM FOCOM WOCOM and all sounds good. no doubt. But again, at the end of the day, what matters? The success. i mentioned in my earlier comment....be it a khukri or a AK47......gotta get the job done.
You are living in a country whose population/landmass is 20 times more than say...Uk/Israel...and your security agencies are making sure that peace and stability is maintained along with a decent economy growth......even when both external and internal elements are doing their best to destroy that.

Says something.

And oh, about 1971.....The little bit of existence and "fame" these Brits and some other Western countries have today are based of their glory days.
"Oh we invented Special forces" "Oh we won WW2(even though we would have had troubles of 2.5 Million Indians didn help us, but we will not mention that)" "Oh Iranian Embassy Siege"...Yada Yada.

Idk about their Special forces, but leave a British soldier at 18,000 ft in Kargil, and they wouldn stay healthy for a day. Let alone have the capacity and training to fight a war .

 

[JConline]

The so called "GWOT" is nothing like the way we conduct it. We do not use air strikes, and avoid demolition unless its absolutely needed. Well known fact that we do it much better -

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/ind...commandos-as-ties-deepen-ahead-of-2014-545156

"We have just been in this game for a longer time, and bombing a home whether in Kashmir or the northeast is just not part of our operating procedure."

Civilian casualties in anti-Taliban operations in Afghanistan have deepened resentment of U.S. forces, and in turn, fuelled the insurgency.

Any link that it was just BUD/S? Because wherever i am reading, it mentions "Seals course" . Not too sure. But never the less, my friend at OTA somewhat confirmed my views. lol

Helicopter part -


28.05

And you're back with what seems to be your only source on Indian SF. Again, not doubting Major Vivek Jacob's credentials but COME ON, DUDE!

We might not be bombing houses in Kashmir but do you have any idea how many times RR has resorted to just blow up the damn house with explosives or just set the house on fire with flamethrowers just so that they don't have to engage in actual door to door CQB?
Do you have any idea, how many Indian SF operatives have lost their lives in CQB operations over the years in Kashmir because they lacked basic SOF equipment like stun grenades. Do you understand that many of these casualties wouldn't have happened if they had proper night fighting capabilities and could employ the tactical advantage of the night?
Sure Kashmir is one hell of a heated sector but have you any idea how ignorant you sound when you compare it to the GWOT in Afghanistan?
Using the tactical advantage that is provided by the darkness of the night has been what has been winning the western SOF battles for decades now. And after all the equipment that Taliban has amassed from the leftovers in Afghanistan, the day is not far when the HM militant holed up in a house has an actual tactical advantage over our SF because of better night fighting capabilities.
Have you ever studied how Indian forces still fight terror in Kashmir? It's literally ancient doctrine. Pulling a cordon, waiting for RR to move in, calling SF even if there's the slightest complexity. The amount of deployment that is done in Kashmir for a few militants is just overkill, if you have properly trained guys. Everytime there's an encounter, there's JKP SOG, CRPF and RR there with the occasional SF deployment. If this were Afghanistan, it would have been a couple of detachments of Green Berets with Army Rangers on standby for emergency extraction. THAT'S IT. And this isn't even for run-of-the-mill militants. I'm talking medium level HVTs. For more critical HVTs, replace Green Berets with Tier 1. And all this would have been in the dead of the night with ISR overhead and noone would have had a clue until the next morning. No day long cordons, no blowing up buildings, no shitshow!
Face it dude. Indian SF is nowhere it used to be. Don't give examples of Surgical Strikes and 26/11. If you really had enough knowledge, you would have known why you shouldn't be citing them as examples.
And as for training, India doesn't really have the upper hand in training. Sure India trains some nations like Djibouti and Phillipines and Bangladesh but in all other cases it's joint training. Granted HAWS is one hell of a facility but apart from that, nothing exceptional that Indian military has to offer. And definitely not SF.
Grow up, man. It's good to be proud of your country. But don't be so blind-sighted that you disregard facts.
And just to get you to start making reason I have a question for you. If Indian SF is so capable, how come we've never been able to strike a single HVT in Pakistan. There's certainly no lack of them.
And people the world over know the laurels of NSDWG and CAG when it comes to that.
Food for thought.

 

[rohit b3]

That country was already broken into two my friend.

Please go and read about the politics before reading only about the military.

Also read about Mukhti Bahini.

A nation spread across thousands of miles and having no air or land connection ..breaking it into two is not soo difficult.

All the other ops you brag about i could share a much realistic picture and if i knew yoh personally i would share more things which would make you humble about our great country.

Only if you have a open mind.

absolutely , not too difficult. Apna Mumbai police ko bhej diya hota.

 

[Fire and groove]

Kaun SAS? Kaun CAG?
How many of these countries broke another country into 2 parts and formed a new country? How many of these countries single handedly saved another country and its Govt. from a Coup attempt?
How many of these countries single handedly broke the backbone of RUF in Sierra Leone?
How many of these countries, apart from US, entered a well defended country like Pakistan and took out dozens and dozens of Terrorists, not once, but several times?
How many of these countries won 7 wars/conflicts since WW2 WITHOUT EXTERNAL HELP?
How many of these countries rescued 800+ civilians/hostages during such well planned attack on 3 locations simultaneously .

Arey, woh sab chod...how many countries are surrounded by China and Pakistan?

I have read a lot of relatable answers on Quora, and they will completely ignore the Indian infantry and Special forces. Even Worse, they talk about Gurkhas whilst completely disregarding the Indian Army, and pretend they serve only with the British army.
In such a scenario, where the media and fanboys are creating a fake perspective by omitting half of the world's major wars/operations.....I dont expect Indians to jump on that wagon too.

I know India stands behind in Equipment. But ultimately for Special forces, its about getting the job done. Be it with a Khukri, or a Kripan or a AK47 or a INSAS. And we know who gets the job done.

CAG..SAS..Bla bla. Ask Major Jacob what he feels about Western "Special forces".

The so called "GWOT" is nothing like the way we conduct it. We do not use air strikes, and avoid demolition unless its absolutely needed. Well known fact that we do it much better -

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/ind...commandos-as-ties-deepen-ahead-of-2014-545156

"We have just been in this game for a longer time, and bombing a home whether in Kashmir or the northeast is just not part of our operating procedure."

Civilian casualties in anti-Taliban operations in Afghanistan have deepened resentment of U.S. forces, and in turn, fuelled the insurgency.

Any link that it was just BUD/S? Because wherever i am reading, it mentions "Seals course" . Not too sure. But never the less, my friend at OTA somewhat confirmed my views. lol

Helicopter part -


28.05

This is a very foolish and amatuerish assessment. We don't use fire support assets because they're not conducive to the AO in kashmir nor are they needed, where insurgents are dispersed into fireteam-sized elements and are too miniscule to warrant CAS or even artillery; not to mention both of those take time and actual capability to call in (Indian army doesn't have JTAC qualified personnel in it's ranks). On the other we have a fetish for structural attacks in Kashmir and far more often will launch a Carl Gustav or plant demolition charges on structures instead of clearing them out, because it's implicitly understood that the Indian army doesn't have confidence in it's room clearing capabilities. This is also, again, comparing apples to oranges. Afghanistan is a whole country with completely different terrain and OPFOR that is far more numerous, better equipped, and competant than anything Kashmir has ever seen.

 

[rohit b3]

If u want to compare ci/ct ops then let me tell u Western sf were daily fighting in Afghanistan in domain of ci
They are very advanced in terms of doctrine and rules of engagement
I repeat what i said in present and future warfare modern training equipment and tactics is gonna give u edge nothing else
U want to believe major then u can but I can definitely say he is lying terribly or surrounded by superiority complex
We will face a lot of defeat in sf domain if we see any war with Pakistan or China then we will see what is our condition

Arey bhai...Afghanistan is over. They have lost. SOCOM VOCOM kuch kaam nahi aaya udhar.