Indian Special Forces

[FalconSlayers]

What about bulpups?

Bullpups are useless.

 

[Scramjet]

In my honest opinion, guns/equipment should be very much op specific (for the SFs ofcourse) what's Y'all's take on it ?

 

[Johny_Baba]

If they stick to these specs to the T (they've a history of not doing so), then this throws all AR-15 based designs out of the window.

The stocks on AR-15s cannot be folded due to the buffer tube, and even the 10.5" version of CAR816 cannot fit within the 650mm limit with the stock retracted/collapsed. Only the 7.5" version can and I reckon that's too short for infantry use. Neither can any other similar design like IWI ARAD or SIG M400.

Even the MCX Virtus misses the mark by a few mm (with stock folded).

This spec seems written with the IWI Carmel 10.5" in mind. That, the 7.5" CAR816 and the 8.5" ACE 21-N are the only platforms I can think of that can fit the bill. Of them only the Carmel with a remotely useful barrel length.

Unless SIG again comes up with a modified offering (like they did for the fast-track rifle deal by coming up with DI 716) like an MCX with a shorter barrel or an MCX RATTLER with a longer barrel or something.

There is a way

Indian army wants carbines in its competition to be 650mm long in foldable and 800mm in extended.

There is still a way,if SIG or IWI wants to grab it with AR way,

these type of PDW collapsible buttstocks for AR

LWRC IC-PDW in 8 inch barrel configuration, lengh is already 20.5" with stock collapsed and 25.5" ( around same length as minium requrired i.e. 650mm) with stock extended

^This one's 8-incher PDW but we can easily throw a little bit more barrel on it, say make it 12" around, stay within limit and still be good, whattya say ?

Someone please mail this to IWI (for ARAD) and SIG (for any 5.56mm AR style weapon they could offer).

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

View attachment 78699

NSG operators do keep pretty long hair these days.

I had an interaction with one sky marshal and i had no idea about his background until he asked me something specifically at the airport.

(cant give more details)

 

[Aspirant847]

1) didn't say integrated units but. Women are a part of ISA. And Delta also has a few women utilizes specifically for Area force operations.

2) women are not door kickers. The spectrum of Special Operations is long and wide

3) 2 Ranger companies in JSOC also play a supporting role. Still part and parcel of special operations

4) USSOCOM Cultural Support Teams are all women and work alongside other SO Task Forces.

5) https://www.militarytimes.com/opini...8/women-in-special-operations-is-nothing-new/

6) Israelis have a long history if women in UC SOF units

7) women have now cleared both Ranger Selection and SF qual course. Just as an FYI.

But didn't they reduce the fitness test levels to shit?

 

[Moroboshi]

SFF.
View attachment 78537
View attachment 78538

Are these stills from a new Rambo movie?

 

[rkhanna]

But didn't they reduce the fitness test levels to shit?

Spend time on Google and SOFREP> there were allegations and completely refuted by SOCOM. infact there were other allegations of standards being dropped to increase size (men or women irrespective) -

replying via a quick Wiki

In December 2016, an anonymous woman passed the RASP II selection course for the 75th Ranger Regiment. She was the first woman to graduate from a special operations unit selection course.[75]

Army Ranger Battalions and Navy SEAL units planned to open positions to women by 2015 and 2016, respectively. In August 2015, Capt. Kristen Griest and 1st Lt. Shaye Haver became the first two women to graduate from the U.S. Army Ranger School, though at the time, women were not eligible to enlist in the 75th Ranger Regiment.[64] In September 2015, Ranger School would permanently open to women.[65][66] In 2016, Griest became the first female infantry officer in the US Army when the Army approved her request to transfer there from a military police unit.[67] By August 2019, 30 women earned their U.S. Army Ranger tab

Women in combat - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

1-6) yes they are there in support roles, that’s even true within Indian mil intel/RAW/IB. I’m sure even SG and PARA(SF) have had women attached to them for support roles. That’s not anything like being part of a SF unit.


7) passing Green beret selection doesn’t make her SF (and you’d be delusional to think she got there on merit and wasn’t given concessions in some form or another), she hasn’t passed Q course and it’s not likely she’ll get to an ODA and afaik no woman has passed RASP for ranger regiment

Well i have read enough to know the women serve in the following JSOC units in active combat roles

1. ISA - primarily in Urban Recon, Sniper Support
- ISA provides Area Force Operation capabilities to the door kickers of SOF Task Forces and other Allied Task Forces
2. Both Delta and DevGru (black squadron?!!) also supposedly have their own AFO subunits that also supposedly employ women in niche roles.
3. There are women pilots in the 160th SOAR

- The ISA, AFO subunits (if they exist - i could be in fanboy fantasy for all i know, SOAR) are all SOF units - they support the Door Kickers but they are true blue SOF
- PS the 2 Ranger Companies in JSOC are also support but try telling a ranger he is not SOF
- the Cultural Suport Teams are indeed support as you mentioned but I have read that they cross train with ODAs and rangers to operate along side them which says something

4. Yes a woman has indeed cleared RASP and yes a woman has cleared Q Course back in the 80s as well. She wasnt badged, she went on to infantry and was given her SF tabs post

There are no women in SOCOM - SOCOM operates in the conventional battle space. Women wont be part of LRRP and the other getting hands dirty in times of war BUT there is a definite capability that women bring to JSOC in urban theaters and in UC paramilitary operations. Higher than average EQ/IQ have definite advantges - Harvard/MIT paper on this quoted by the pentagon.

4. There are no women 'support' in the way i mean in Indian SOF baring a women only unit in the SFF which is meant for deep FID activity inside tibet only. dont know if they are used elsewhere but not SOF AFAIK (atleast in tasking for now)
- RAW & IB does indeed have female intelligence agents but either as analyst or Overt Operations.
- There is no female paramilitary presence in SF
- The only other female unit is an SRG unit within NSG - but i would only consider SAG special operations.

Added later:

Women allowed to try out for SAS

SAS: Women allowed to join for first time

The defence secretary says women will be able apply for any military role, including the special forces.

www.bbc.com

First Woman to join SAS

First woman set to join SAS 'is mum who specialises in covert ops'

A MUM is set to become the first woman to join the SAS, it was reported last night. The 28-year-old Afghan war hero – who specialises in covert missions – has already served with Britai…

www.thesun.co.uk

First female gets Green Beret

First Woman Joins Green Berets After Graduating From Special Forces Training (Published 2020)

The soldier’s graduation is a landmark moment for the Army, as the Special Forces were one of the branch’s last assignments without any women.

www.nytimes.com

Women in Spetznaz (including Officer Cadre) have served in intel gathering, Counter Intel and as “beacons” to lead in assaulting troops during a foreign raid or invasion. This includes GRU units.


And then there are the baddass women of the Peshmerga - being taking the fight to their invaders for over 1000 years.

There is no open source info on the Israelis but i do know they have women in SOF units. An ex boss of mine in HK was an ex Israeli MI Col.


in a PC world woman in Combat would be limited to the regular army for appeasement sake. There is no way in hell Elite units would allow dilution of standards for such things. But things are changing which could mean
1. There is merit in finding the best of the best irrespective of caste, creed, sex, religion
2. Woman have a definite role to play in the modern day battle space

 

[rkhanna]

I just want to let you know, I came on your dp, literally coomed, felt good. Also @mods, please move this senior citizen to respectable thread.

Oye lol go go easy on the senior citizen jibe. I am older than him

 

[abingdonboy]

NSG operators do keep pretty long hair these days.

I had an interaction with one sky marshal and i had no idea about his background until he asked me something specifically at the airport.

(cant give more details)

Makes sense for their sky marshals, they are meant to blend in and not stick out as armed commandos.


but this guy looks like an assaulter so it’s a bit less understandable that grooming standards would be relaxed like this. We all know about the beards and long hair in JK but a CT unit deployed to a modern hub that is training year round wouldn’t be the same situation. Perhaps he’s SF and old habits die hard?

guess it’s just the style these days for elite units around the world but I’m surprised an organisation like NSG would be okay with it. And yeah I have noticed SAG/SCG guys have been keeping longer hair for a while now but the beard is a standout

Anyway just some interesting observations

 

[Gessler]

There is a way

There is still a way,if SIG or IWI wants to grab it with AR way,

these type of PDW collapsible buttstocks for AR

LWRC IC-PDW in 8 inch barrel configuration, lengh is already 20.5" with stock collapsed and 25.5" ( around same length as minium requrired i.e. 650mm) with stock extended
View attachment 78702
^This one's 8-incher PDW but we can easily throw a little bit more barrel on it, say make it 12" around, stay within limit and still be good, whattya say ?

Someone please mail this to IWI (for ARAD) and SIG (for any 5.56mm AR style weapon they could offer).

1) If the requirements given are not absolute and any value that is 'close enough' is fine (like 670-680mm), then MCX Virtus is best bet, it's the most proven platform among folding-stock AR-inspired designs. Plus SIG is on a rampage in recent times in Indian small arms market...for some reason.

2) If barrel lengths under 10" are fine, then there is no dearth of options. But we're not looking for a PDW but a carbine that Infantry can use.

3) If custom barrel lengths are in play (though that will take some initiative & testing on part of the OEM considering change to length & twist rate will have a great effect on ballistics and on how effective the gas cycles) then the doors are swung open. Would still prefer MCX though.

4) I was just considering among the companies to which RFIs were addressed, so no LWRC -

Indian Army embarks on a new hunt for carbines

Puts out fresh request to global manufacturers for the close-combat weapons

www.indiatoday.in

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Makes sense for their sky marshals, they are meant to blend in and not stick out as armed commandos.


but this guy looks like an assaulter so it’s a bit less understandable that grooming standards would be relaxed like this. We all know about the beards and long hair in JK but a CT unit deployed to a modern hub that is training year round wouldn’t be the same situation. Perhaps he’s SF and old habits die hard?

guess it’s just the style these days for elite units around the world but I’m surprised an organisation like NSG would be okay with it. And yeah I have noticed SAG/SCG guys have been keeping longer hair for a while now but the beard is a standout

Anyway just some interesting observations

Ya or maybe is a Sikh.

Sikh soldiers(moana sardar) are allowed any hairstyle and beard anywhere.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Spend time on Google and SOFREP> there were allegations and completely refuted by SOCOM. infact there were other allegations of standards being dropped to increase size (men or women irrespective) -

replying via a quick Wiki

In December 2016, an anonymous woman passed the RASP II selection course for the 75th Ranger Regiment. She was the first woman to graduate from a special operations unit selection course.[75]

Army Ranger Battalions and Navy SEAL units planned to open positions to women by 2015 and 2016, respectively. In August 2015, Capt. Kristen Griest and 1st Lt. Shaye Haver became the first two women to graduate from the U.S. Army Ranger School, though at the time, women were not eligible to enlist in the 75th Ranger Regiment.[64] In September 2015, Ranger School would permanently open to women.[65][66] In 2016, Griest became the first female infantry officer in the US Army when the Army approved her request to transfer there from a military police unit.[67] By August 2019, 30 women earned their U.S. Army Ranger tab

Women in combat - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Well i have read enough to know the women serve in the following JSOC units in active combat roles

1. ISA - primarily in Urban Recon, Sniper Support
- ISA provides Area Force Operation capabilities to the door kickers of SOF Task Forces and other Allied Task Forces
2. Both Delta and DevGru (black squadron?!!) also supposedly have their own AFO subunits that also supposedly employ women in niche roles.
3. There are women pilots in the 160th SOAR

- The ISA, AFO subunits (if they exist - i could be in fanboy fantasy for all i know, SOAR) are all SOF units - they support the Door Kickers but they are true blue SOF
- PS the 2 Ranger Companies in JSOC are also support but try telling a ranger he is not SOF
- the Cultural Suport Teams are indeed support as you mentioned but I have read that they cross train with ODAs and rangers to operate along side them which says something

4. Yes a woman has indeed cleared RASP and yes a woman has cleared Q Course back in the 80s as well. She wasnt badged, she went on to infantry and was given her SF tabs post

There are no women in SOCOM - SOCOM operates in the conventional battle space. Women wont be part of LRRP and the other getting hands dirty in times of war BUT there is a definite capability that women bring to JSOC in urban theaters and in UC paramilitary operations. Higher than average EQ/IQ have definite advantges - Harvard/MIT paper on this quoted by the pentagon.

4. There are no women 'support' in the way i mean in Indian SOF baring a women only unit in the SFF which is meant for deep FID activity inside tibet only. dont know if they are used elsewhere but not SOF AFAIK (atleast in tasking for now)
- RAW & IB does indeed have female intelligence agents but either as analyst or Overt Operations.
- There is no female paramilitary presence in SF
- The only other female unit is an SRG unit within NSG - but i would only consider SAG special operations.

Added later:

Women allowed to try out for SAS

SAS: Women allowed to join for first time

The defence secretary says women will be able apply for any military role, including the special forces.

www.bbc.com

First Woman to join SAS

First woman set to join SAS 'is mum who specialises in covert ops'

A MUM is set to become the first woman to join the SAS, it was reported last night. The 28-year-old Afghan war hero – who specialises in covert missions – has already served with Britai…

www.thesun.co.uk

First female gets Green Beret

First Woman Joins Green Berets After Graduating From Special Forces Training (Published 2020)

The soldier’s graduation is a landmark moment for the Army, as the Special Forces were one of the branch’s last assignments without any women.

www.nytimes.com

Women in Spetznaz (including Officer Cadre) have served in intel gathering, Counter Intel and as “beacons” to lead in assaulting troops during a foreign raid or invasion. This includes GRU units.


And then there are the baddass women of the Peshmerga - being taking the fight to their invaders for over 1000 years.

There is no open source info on the Israelis but i do know they have women in SOF units. An ex boss of mine in HK was an ex Israeli MI Col.


in a PC world woman in Combat would be limited to the regular army for appeasement sake. There is no way in hell Elite units would allow dilution of standards for such things. But things are changing which could mean
1. There is merit in finding the best of the best irrespective of caste, creed, sex, religion
2. Woman have a definite role to play in the modern day battle space

Facts don't care about feelings.


Please contain further discussions to the relevant thread.

 

[ManhattanProject]

View attachment 78699

ohh i like the plate carrier, wish i could have a better look.

 

[ManhattanProject]

Facts don't care about feelings.


Please contain further discussions to the relevant thread.

you know, he is talking about niche roles in special operations, not infantry.

 

[Johny_Baba]

1) If the requirements given are not absolute and any value that is 'close enough' is fine (like 670-680mm), then MCX Virtus is best bet, it's the most proven platform among folding-stock AR-inspired designs. Plus SIG is on a rampage in recent times in Indian small arms market...for some reason.

2) If barrel lengths under 10" are fine, then there is no dearth of options. But we're not looking for a PDW but a carbine that Infantry can use.

3) If custom barrel lengths are in play (though that will take some initiative & testing on part of the OEM considering change to length & twist rate will have a great effect on ballistics and on how effective the gas cycles) then the doors are swung open. Would still prefer MCX though.

4) I was just considering among the companies to which RFIs were addressed, so no LWRC -

Indian Army embarks on a new hunt for carbines

Puts out fresh request to global manufacturers for the close-combat weapons

www.indiatoday.in

yep i just quoted LWRC's PDW as an example because it came first in my mind,not saying LWRC one should be procured,
besides my focus was more on idea of ;bypassing; length requirements IF they are strictly enforced (you can never take chance of relaxation from MoD babudumbs) using that pattern of buttstock, not saying much about barrel length as you can practically adopt it for anything from a small PDW like that to a long rifle like this,

a 16-incher AR-15 with Maxim Defense Industries PDW stock, stock collapsed and opened

^this stock is lengthed at 5.5 inches//~140mm collapsed and 10 inches//~254mm fully extended
and giving to about 7.5 inches//~190.5mm length of the receiver of AR total length of the receiver unit with the stock would be some 13 inches// ~330mm collapsed and 17.5//~444.5mm fully extended,still giving a good option of adopting a 12.5 incher barrel and still stay within limits,adequate enough for intended requirements.
of course only drawback is certain stocks of ^this^ pattern require unique bolt carriers and recoil springs but again we're inducting a totally new firearm so maybe we would be able to absorb it ?
At least Maxim's doesn't require a unique bolt carrier, just unique buffer and recoil spring it needs.

PDW Stock Buyer's Guide

The best of the PDW stocks and braces! While not the perfect answer for everyone, these offer a compact option when space is at a premium.

www.recoilweb.com

^refer to this website, kinda outdated but still a nice summary of this pattern of stocks.

 

[Aspirant847]

Spend time on Google and SOFREP> there were allegations and completely refuted by SOCOM. infact there were other allegations of standards being dropped to increase size (men or women irrespective) -

replying via a quick Wiki

In December 2016, an anonymous woman passed the RASP II selection course for the 75th Ranger Regiment. She was the first woman to graduate from a special operations unit selection course.[75]

Army Ranger Battalions and Navy SEAL units planned to open positions to women by 2015 and 2016, respectively. In August 2015, Capt. Kristen Griest and 1st Lt. Shaye Haver became the first two women to graduate from the U.S. Army Ranger School, though at the time, women were not eligible to enlist in the 75th Ranger Regiment.[64] In September 2015, Ranger School would permanently open to women.[65][66] In 2016, Griest became the first female infantry officer in the US Army when the Army approved her request to transfer there from a military police unit.[67] By August 2019, 30 women earned their U.S. Army Ranger tab

Women in combat - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Well i have read enough to know the women serve in the following JSOC units in active combat roles

1. ISA - primarily in Urban Recon, Sniper Support
- ISA provides Area Force Operation capabilities to the door kickers of SOF Task Forces and other Allied Task Forces
2. Both Delta and DevGru (black squadron?!!) also supposedly have their own AFO subunits that also supposedly employ women in niche roles.
3. There are women pilots in the 160th SOAR

- The ISA, AFO subunits (if they exist - i could be in fanboy fantasy for all i know, SOAR) are all SOF units - they support the Door Kickers but they are true blue SOF
- PS the 2 Ranger Companies in JSOC are also support but try telling a ranger he is not SOF
- the Cultural Suport Teams are indeed support as you mentioned but I have read that they cross train with ODAs and rangers to operate along side them which says something

4. Yes a woman has indeed cleared RASP and yes a woman has cleared Q Course back in the 80s as well. She wasnt badged, she went on to infantry and was given her SF tabs post

There are no women in SOCOM - SOCOM operates in the conventional battle space. Women wont be part of LRRP and the other getting hands dirty in times of war BUT there is a definite capability that women bring to JSOC in urban theaters and in UC paramilitary operations. Higher than average EQ/IQ have definite advantges - Harvard/MIT paper on this quoted by the pentagon.

4. There are no women 'support' in the way i mean in Indian SOF baring a women only unit in the SFF which is meant for deep FID activity inside tibet only. dont know if they are used elsewhere but not SOF AFAIK (atleast in tasking for now)
- RAW & IB does indeed have female intelligence agents but either as analyst or Overt Operations.
- There is no female paramilitary presence in SF
- The only other female unit is an SRG unit within NSG - but i would only consider SAG special operations.

Added later:

Women allowed to try out for SAS

SAS: Women allowed to join for first time

The defence secretary says women will be able apply for any military role, including the special forces.

www.bbc.com

First Woman to join SAS

First woman set to join SAS 'is mum who specialises in covert ops'

A MUM is set to become the first woman to join the SAS, it was reported last night. The 28-year-old Afghan war hero – who specialises in covert missions – has already served with Britai…

www.thesun.co.uk

First female gets Green Beret

First Woman Joins Green Berets After Graduating From Special Forces Training (Published 2020)

The soldier’s graduation is a landmark moment for the Army, as the Special Forces were one of the branch’s last assignments without any women.

www.nytimes.com

Women in Spetznaz (including Officer Cadre) have served in intel gathering, Counter Intel and as “beacons” to lead in assaulting troops during a foreign raid or invasion. This includes GRU units.


And then there are the baddass women of the Peshmerga - being taking the fight to their invaders for over 1000 years.

There is no open source info on the Israelis but i do know they have women in SOF units. An ex boss of mine in HK was an ex Israeli MI Col.


in a PC world woman in Combat would be limited to the regular army for appeasement sake. There is no way in hell Elite units would allow dilution of standards for such things. But things are changing which could mean
1. There is merit in finding the best of the best irrespective of caste, creed, sex, religion
2. Woman have a definite role to play in the modern day battle space

Yeah definitely they should be used for the roles they can play well, but women leading troops in combat isn't a very good idea.

 

[Aspirant847]

At what?

physical based things

 

[rkhanna]

physical based things

We can carry this convo on in the international SF thread

 

[rkhanna]

yep i just quoted LWRC's PDW as an example because it came first in my mind,not saying LWRC one should be procured,
besides my focus was more on idea of ;bypassing; length requirements IF they are strictly enforced (you can never take chance of relaxation from MoD babudumbs) using that pattern of buttstock, not saying much about barrel length as you can practically adopt it for anything from a small PDW like that to a long rifle like this,

a 16-incher AR-15 with Maxim Defense Industries PDW stock, stock collapsed and opened
View attachment 78757
^this stock is lengthed at 5.5 inches//~140mm collapsed and 10 inches//~254mm fully extended
and giving to about 7.5 inches//~190.5mm length of the receiver of AR total length of the receiver unit with the stock would be some 13 inches// ~330mm collapsed and 17.5//~444.5mm fully extended,still giving a good option of adopting a 12.5 incher barrel and still stay within limits,adequate enough for intended requirements.
of course only drawback is certain stocks of ^this^ pattern require unique bolt carriers and recoil springs but again we're inducting a totally new firearm so maybe we would be able to absorb it ?
At least Maxim's doesn't require a unique bolt carrier, just unique buffer and recoil spring it needs.

PDW Stock Buyer's Guide

The best of the PDW stocks and braces! While not the perfect answer for everyone, these offer a compact option when space is at a premium.

www.recoilweb.com

^refer to this website, kinda outdated but still a nice summary of this pattern of stocks.

Why not Danial Defence Mods on all are AR platforms instead for SOF troops ?

 

[Johny_Baba]

Why not Danial Defence Mods on all are AR platforms instead for SOF troops ?

lol That level of standardisation would be like dream coming true but we didn't care much about standardising equipments before, for e.g. while procuring tonnes of different varieties of AK instead of relyin on single one and now we have this soup of Bulgarian,Romanian,OG Russian,East German,Hungarian,Chinese (captured stuff) and what not AKs here...then among certain variant there are subvariants with different buttstocks for e.g. Bulgarian ones came with Fixed,UnderFolding and SideFolding buttstocks...
Hope some sense prevails among procurement guys and they look at things which are not part of usual RFI-RFP-GSQR but very much related to actual things of the firearms.